Visenya Targaryen

[SeanF]

She’s always been the most interesting of the family, to me, and the one I’d like to know more about.

More than Prince Daemon, she combines the characteristics of heroine and villain.  She was a highly competent leader, fearless in battle, and a gifted diplomat, charming the Arryns into submission.

And yet, she was quite prepared to burn Dorne to the ground as revenge for her sister’s death, and to obtain their submission.  She may well have murdered her nephew, and was determined to place her appalling son on the throne.

So, was she good or bad?

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

Quote

Over the centuries, House Targaryen has produced both great men women and monsters. Prince Daemon Queen Visenya was both. In his her day there was not a man woman so admired, so beloved, and so reviled in all Westeros. He She was made of light and darkness in equal parts. To some he she was a hero, to others the blackest of villains.

There you go, I fix the quote for you.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Thomaerys Velaryon

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

So, was she good or bad?

Do we have to chose one or the other?

[SeanF]

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Do we have to chose one or the other?

Not necessarily.

There are people in this tale, who are vile, like Walder Frey, the Boltons, See Gregor, LF etc.

The rest are verging shades of grey.

 

[James Arryn]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

She’s always been the most interesting of the family, to me, and the one I’d like to know more about.

More than Prince Daemon, she combines the characteristics of heroine and villain.  She was a highly competent leader, fearless in battle, and a gifted diplomat, charming the Arryns into submission.

And yet, she was quite prepared to burn Dorne to the ground as revenge for her sister’s death, and to obtain their submission.  She may well have murdered her nephew, and was determined to place her appalling son on the throne.

So, was she good or bad?

I would not call her persuasion of Lady Arryn “charming”. She held the heir in her lap, with her dragon behind her. The threat was so implicit it might well be regarded as explicit. If we want to credit her here, I would call it an ability to be subtle, or as Sun Tzu says, ‘winning without fighting’.

 

Edit: If by ‘of the family’ you mean all Targs, I’d probably disagree, but if you mean ‘of the three siblings at the conquest’, yes, easily. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by James Arryn

[SeanF]

19 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

I would not call her persuasion of Lady Arryn “charming”. She held the heir in her lap, with her dragon behind her. The threat was so implicit it might well be regarded as explicit. If we want to credit her here, I would call it an ability to be subtle, or as Sun Tzu says, ‘winning without fighting’.

 

Edit: If by ‘of the family’ you mean all Targs, I’d probably disagree, but if you mean ‘of the three siblings at the conquest’, yes, easily. 

Oh, I agree.  It’s making a threat, without making it explicit, so enabling the other person to save face.

[Lord Varys]

45 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Oh, I agree.  It’s making a threat, without making it explicit, so enabling the other person to save face.

I think 'charming' was a good choice of words there, as antagonizing Queen Sharra too much could have caused her to try to seize or kill Visenya after little Ronnel was safely away from the dragon.

As a character, Visenya isn't really developed, so I don't find her very interesting. We have no clue how she felt about Aegon, Rhaenys, the nature of their weird incestuous polygamy thing, Aenys, Maegor, her step-grandchildren and daughters-in-law, etc.

There is some potential villainy there, but not so much - her undermining the reign of Aenys before it started is one such, ditto, of course, her murdering him if she did that, and her making Maegor king rather than trying to help the rightful successor, Aegon the Uncrowned. Recalling Maegor was one thing, crowning him another entirely.

But even at that late stage of her career she still seems to have kept Maegor in check. He only goes off the deep end after his mother is gone. I think if George were to write this out in detail we would see Maegor-Visenya during Maegor's reign very much resemble Tiberius-Livia as potrayed in I, Claudius. The fact that Maegor didn't attack Alyssa and her children directly until they made a move against him would have been something Visenya ensured. We also hear that she advocated for clemency after the Battle Below the Gods Eye. There is also a sign that Visenya had problems with Tyanna (and thus, perhaps, also with her son), resulting in her retreating to Dragonstone. Keeping Alyssa and the children there could have been less an evil hostage situation and more her way of keeping them safe. I'd not be surprised if a detailed account of Alyssa's flight were to reveal that the dying Visenya called Alyssa to her chambers and gave her leave to go, knowing or expecting that Maegor would kill her and her children eventually, if they remained in his power.

I'd also not be surprised if the estrangement between Aegon and Visenya revolved around her not wanting to see what Maegor was, and her trying to push Aegon to advance Maegor as much as he did advance Aenys - especially if neither of them (or only Maegor) was Aegon's biological son. Aegon would want to have a sane successor, one whose cruelty and paranoia would not undo what he and his sisters had built, whereas Visenya might be more obsessed with blood claims and a loyalty to her (and Aegon's) own kin. If neither child was Aegon's seed then Maegor would come first as the child of the eldest sister, whilst Aenys' Targaryen blood would only come from the younger Rhaenys.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Lord Varys

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think 'charming' was a good choice of words there, as antagonizing Queen Sharra too much could have caused her to try to seize or kill Visenya after little Ronnel was safely away from the dragon.

As a character, Visenya isn't really developed, so I don't find her very interesting. We have no clue how she felt about Aegon, Rhaenys, the nature of their weird incestuous polygamy thing, Aenys, Maegor, her step-grandchildren and daughters-in-law, etc.

There is some potential villainy there, but not so much - her undermining the reign of Aenys before it started is one such, ditto, of course, her murdering him if she did that, and her making Maegor king rather than trying to help the rightful successor, Aegon the Uncrowned. Recalling Maegor was one thing, crowning him another entirely.

But even at that late stage of her career she still seems to have keeping Maegor in check. He only goes off the deep end after his mother is gone. I think if George were to write this out in detail we would see Maegor-Visenya during Maegor's reign very much resemble Tiberius-Livia as potrayed in I, Claudius. The fact that Maegor didn't attack Alyssa and her children directly until they made a move against him would have been something Visenya ensured. We also hear that she advocated for clemency after the Battle Below the Gods Eye. There is also a sign that Visenya had problems with Tyanna (and thus, perhaps, also with her son), resulting in her retreating to Dragonstone. Keeping Alyssa and the children there could have been less an evil hostage situation and more her way of keeping them safe. I'd not be surprised if a detailed account of Alyssa's flight were to reveal that the dying Visenya called Alyssa to her chambers and gave her leave to go, knowing or expecting that Maegor would kill her and her children eventually, if they remained in his power.

I'd also not be surprised if the estrangement between Aegon and Visenya revolved around her not wanting to see what Maegor was, and her trying to push Aegon to advance Maegor as much as he did advance Aenys - especially if neither of them (or only Maegor) was Aegon's biological son. Aegon would want to have a sane successor, one whose cruelty and paranoia would not undo what he and his sisters had built, whereas Visenya might be more obsessed with blood claims and a loyalty to her (and Aegon's) own kin. If neither child was Aegon's seed then Maegor would come first as the child of the eldest sister, whilst Aenys' Targaryen blood would only come from the younger Rhaenys.

Livia/Tiberius is a good comparison.

[James Arryn]

45 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Oh, I agree.  It’s making a threat, without making it explicit, so enabling the other person to save face.

I kinda look at it as checkmate where your opponent can play it out or concede, but you both know it’s over. The price for playing it out here would have been ridiculously high for zero gain. But the second part of doing it the way GRRM does is kinda two-fold symbolism; it’s the invulnerable Vale’s weak spot (dragons, which to be fair is everyone’s weak spot, just with the Vale it’s more singular) writ small.
 

And it also establishes a kind of affinity. Every major house has a kind of personality model, and the Arryns is the closest to the Targs (Gardeners might have been as well, hard to know now)…unless you count the unofficially major Hightowers who are similar to both in many ways. But both are proud, haughty, martial, ~ remote/aloof, austere, overtly prioritize honour but quite prone to periods of viscous infighting, both (before the Conquest) felt themselves invulnerable, both their seats are foreboding works of improbable engineering but kind of cold and uncomfortable to those not raised there, both houses represent the centre of origin of an Essosi culture and religion brought to Westeros, both sigils are killers who strike from above, etc. I’d add that both are often represented as physically attractive, but this is true of several houses so not really a distinction. And then if you look back at the earlier history, the Targs intermarried with the Arryns far more than any other house of non-Valyrian descent. 
 

The sense you’re left with is that the Targs felt more akin to the Arryns than was true for other Westerosi houses, though I don’t know if the Sharra/Visenya interaction was chicken or egg re: this dynamic. And over time, as the Targs became more and more Westerosi this, lol, special relationship waned (as it did with the houses of Valyrian descent). 

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by James Arryn

[Darth Sidious]

17 hours ago, SeanF said:

She’s always been the most interesting of the family, to me, and the one I’d like to know more about.

More than Prince Daemon, she combines the characteristics of heroine and villain.  She was a highly competent leader, fearless in battle, and a gifted diplomat, charming the Arryns into submission.

And yet, she was quite prepared to burn Dorne to the ground as revenge for her sister’s death, and to obtain their submission.  She may well have murdered her nephew, and was determined to place her appalling son on the throne.

So, was she good or bad?

Kingdoms and thrones aren’t built on nice. I like Visenya almost as much as I like Daenerys. Daenerys is my favorite. 
 

The Starks butchered their way to power in the north. The Hoares did their bloody work to keep control of the river lands. The masters killed slaves all the time and many times for entertainment. Visenya did nothing unreasonable.  Maegor was the best man for the job and gave the faith a severe beating. 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

15 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

Kingdoms and thrones aren’t built on nice. I like Visenya almost as much as I like Daenerys. Daenerys is my favorite. 
 

The Starks butchered their way to power in the north. The Hoares did their bloody work to keep control of the river lands. The masters killed slaves all the time and many times for entertainment. Visenya did nothing unreasonable.  Maegor was the best man for the job and gave the faith a severe beating. 

Nice mental gymnastics there bud. Almost as impressive as your gymnastics in the Chancellor’s room and the Senate room.

[SeanF]

23 hours ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

Nice mental gymnastics there bud. Almost as impressive as your gymnastics in the Chancellor’s room and the Senate room.

Up to a point, I do think Maegor was correct.  The Faith Militant had to be broken, otherwise Westeros would have become a theocracy.

As CS Lewis put it, a theocracy is the worst form of tyranny, because it is one that is sincerely exercised for the good of its victims.

Other than that though, Maegor’s brutality went far beyond the bounds of necessity.

[Lord of Oldstones]

Visenya is my fave Targ woman. Warrior and possibly witch. Made many a marriage alliances including Blackwood-Bracken in double marriage for peace. Roasted Dorne for revenge on her younger sister. And also those minor Riverlander faith cronies. 

Its hard to belive she kills her step-son. If she harbored such could have killed him as soon as she got Maegor. True she wanted Maegor on throne but after Aenys's death,claim of Maegor as son of the conquerer is higher than Aeny's dragonless weak seed. And he was very image of Conqueror and much better suited. Tyanna of Towers brought him down as much as she saved with the witchery.

[The Commentator]

Maegor was indeed excessive when he had the builders of the Keep executed to protect its secrets. But he is far less cruel if compared to Roose. No one would call Roose incompetent at leadership. Visenya saved the kingdom from others who would have brought ruin.