Crack Theory: Dragons were genetically engineered by the Valyrians.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

I’ve always found the trend of Targaryen women giving birth to draconic abominations strange. But it’s almost a common occurrence. We also know that the Valyrians used magic, and blood magic to tame the dragons, to what degree is unclear. It’s also heavily hinted at that in the colonies in Sothoryos, some civilization experiment in creating monsters by breeding different animals. Finally, we have the tragic and horrifying case of Aerea Targaryen. She ran into something that was large and powerful enough to seriously wound Balerion. And then something laid eggs, or let parasites into her body to grow. These “parasites” were so hot that her eyes boiled from her skull, and the knight carrying her could feel it through his armor. These things also had human like faces, and screamed like children.

 

I think the original dragons came from genetically altered Valyrian women. And that through their lines the Dragonlord families were created.

[chrisdaw]

Yeah I think GRRM pretty clearly put the possibility out there in AWOIAF, but really the possibility existed just going by the existence and established rules of skin changing and second lifing.

The text basically gives us skin changing something corrupts the human's blood with that thing (and the bones remember). Through skinchanging, (forced) interbreeding and experimentation particularly desirable results are likely to be able to be engineered.

I would suggest the results work best on children, and that Valyrians particularly were able to force souls out of children (including in the womb) and into other animals/beasts, including dragon eggs. And that's why you have no (visible) children in Asshai, as there are sorcerers there doing all kinds of skin changing/beast splicing experimentation and children are valuable commodities for use in these experiments.

I think the sphinx (from the sphinx is the riddle) might refer to the different blood lines required to make a dragon.

I don't think it all really matters much to the story plot, the point is just that a second lifed thing will reflect the bloodline of the thing that second lifed it, mentally and physically, because Euron is going to second life Drogon and Drogon is going to reflect Euron and turn into Cthuhlu. Actually on second thought, I expect Euron to similarly experiment to create his own set of beasts (probably trying to make a dragon so he can skinchange/second life it) through the forced mating and use of the children of his followers, and that's what the dwarves in the Forsaken represent.

[Aebram]

I don't consider this "crack" at all. There are several hints in the books that the Valyrians were able to combine species; and they claimed that they themselves were descended from dragons.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

While it seems like those parasites found their way into her body, what if the magic of Valyria actually caused them to form INSIDE and FROM her blood.

[Daeron the Daring]

Even if dragons were genetically engineered, (a theory only ever mentioned by Barth, even valyrians had a mystical origin story for them) they would likely not originate from Valyria or the valyrians, but from Asshai. 

I would consider their story the most reliable, not only because it aligns with what the valyrians say about finding the dragons around the Fourteen Flames, but also because it gives a precedent to the existence of dragons before the valyrians were a thing or they began to ride them.

Something all mythical origin stories agree on is that they were around before too.

However, Septon Barth does say they may have been genetically engineered by valyrians and their magic (something the Freehold did to begin with), but let's not forget that Barth was a massive Targaryen fanboy, possibly heavily biased towards valyrians in general because of that, making it obvious why he would credit the creation of dragons to valyrians: To elevate Jaehaerys I's status even further. After all, he is one of the 7 preachers of the Doctrine of Exceptionalism.

There's a lot of arguments and counterarguments to be made here, but if they were made by human magic, I'd rather have my vote on ancient asshai.

But the bondage some people (valyrians) are capable to create with them is definitely made possible by magic.

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

43 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Even if dragons were genetically engineered, (a theory only ever mentioned by Barth, even valyrians had a mystical origin story for them) they would likely not originate from Valyria or the valyrians, but from Asshai. 

I would consider their story the most reliable, not only because it aligns with what the valyrians say about finding the dragons around the Fourteen Flames, but also because it gives a precedent to the existence of dragons before the valyrians were a thing or they began to ride them.

Something all mythical origin stories agree on is that they were around before too.

However, Septon Barth does say they may have been genetically engineered by valyrians and their magic (something the Freehold did to begin with), but let's not forget that Barth was a massive Targaryen fanboy, possibly heavily biased towards valyrians in general because of that, making it obvious why he would credit the creation of dragons to valyrians: To elevate Jaehaerys I's status even further. After all, he is one of the 7 preachers of the Doctrine of Exceptionalism.

There's a lot of arguments and counterarguments to be made here, but if they were made by human magic, I'd rather have my vote on ancient asshai.

But the bondage some people (valyrians) are capable to create with them is definitely made possible by magic.

 

I wouldn’t be shocked if the original dragons, who came from Planetos’ second moon cracking and raining “fire” down on the planet, all died with the Great Empire of the Dawn. Valyrians using what they learned in Gogossos and Sothoryos to genetically engineer the native Firewyrms into dragons. Which might be why Dany’s dragons are technically wyverns (not sure if that is show only or not)

[Craving Peaches]

I thought Valyrian dragons could be a crossbreed between Wyverns and Fireworks? Was this suggested as an in-world theory though or just fan speculation, I can't remember... Obviously some magic/genetic engineering could have been involved with that as well because the two do not appear to be naturally compatible.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

I wouldn’t be shocked if the original dragons, who came from Planetos’ second moon cracking and raining “fire” down on the planet, all died with the Great Empire of the Dawn. Valyrians using what they learned in Gogossos and Sothoryos to genetically engineer the native Firewyrms into dragons. Which might be why Dany’s dragons are technically wyverns (not sure if that is show only or not)

Hmmm, no.

What you describe doesn't really fit with actual lore:

-Dragons used to habit the whole planet. Why they stopped doing that could possibly be explained by a close to apocalypse state of the world, or the Valyrians simply gathering them (out of fear of someone else riding them too), but they seemed to have been around continuously.

-George's dragons are two-legged. They shouldn't be, but they are. George wasn't aware of this when he imagined them, but adressed the issue since. If you want to, you can imagine them having 4 legs. The number of their legs is never mentioned directly, but every illustration still uses the two-legged version.

-The Great Empire of the Dawn and the Valyrian Freehold are set apart by thousands of years.

-Valyria was inhabited by dragons to begin with. If there was a dragon extinction, and then their ressurection by the Freehold, we should know by now, but there's also no reason why couldn't they (or anyone else) bring back the original dragons, with leftover eggs, for example, just like in Daenerys' case.

What you try to get to, however, could be squeezed into the lore, but it'd be really pointless and tight, and overall weird to have this flavor added.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[Bobity.]

Do folks outright disregard Age of Hero references to dragons? I think the Valyrians were experimenting on creatures to replicate dragons, but dragons were already around. I don't buy the "We were mere sheppards" line.

[Curled Finger]

It seems to me somewhere in the recesses of my memory that Wyvern have 4 legs.  Could be too much fantasy reading, too.   However, those sphinx babies are telling of the blood of the dragon.  Of course they were engineered.  

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

It seems to me somewhere in the recesses of my memory that Wyvern have 4 legs.  Could be too much fantasy reading, too.   However, those sphinx babies are telling of the blood of the dragon.  Of course they were engineered.  

It was dragons that always have 4 legs. Wyverns have 2 with wings used as legs.

Perhaps George planned this from the start, Valyrian dragons, are not dragons, but biologically engineered wyverns

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

It was dragons that always have 4 legs. Wyverns have 2 with wings used as legs.

Perhaps George planned this from the start, Valyrian dragons, are not dragons, but biologically engineered wyverns

That was a quick straightening out.  Thankee.  Doesn't it say this in the books somewhere that it was wyvern all magicked up or engineered that became dragons?   This is a thing.  

I thought for the longest time it was a random case of weird Valyrian god mindset led to bestiality.

[The Duck and the Field]

Once heard a related crack theory that Valyrians, or at least dragon-riding Valyrians, are genetically spliced with dragons. This is used to explain the multiple weird, scaly premature births born to Targaryens. Idea is that all Valyrians look like that until a few months before birth. Weird idea, but kind of interesting.

[Mithras]

More like Valyrians reinvented the wheel.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

21 hours ago, The Duck and the Field said:

Once heard a related crack theory that Valyrians, or at least dragon-riding Valyrians, are genetically spliced with dragons. This is used to explain the multiple weird, scaly premature births born to Targaryens. Idea is that all Valyrians look like that until a few months before birth. Weird idea, but kind of interesting.

I think that is true, Valyrian colonies in Sothoryos are said to have practiced some form of magical splicing with animals and it was said at one colony that slave women were “bred with animals”

[fischbroetchen]

On 6/10/2023 at 9:26 PM, Bobity. said:

I don't buy the "We were mere sheppards" line.

Always wondered what that was about. From their looks alone the Valyrians clearly aren't just random sheppards. The story could be a vague reminder that sheep are important as the ideal food to give a dragon and bond with it. It seemed to be part of whatever Nettels was doing, but I doubt it's that easy.

If the Valyrians were shepherds before the people from Asshai'i (GEotD) taught them how to ride dragons, the questions of why and how remain. My best guess is that there was a folk of shepherds who got enslaved by the people of the expanding empire from the east. The slaves were used for unnatural experiments to combine humans with dragons and thereby control them. Maybe the ruling class in the region then tried to incorporate the successful results by intermarrying.

[maesternewton]

On 5/22/2023 at 4:08 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

Even if dragons were genetically engineered, (a theory only ever mentioned by Barth, even valyrians had a mystical origin story for them) they would likely not originate from Valyria or the valyrians, but from Asshai. 

I would consider their story the most reliable, not only because it aligns with what the valyrians say about finding the dragons around the Fourteen Flames, but also because it gives a precedent to the existence of dragons before the valyrians were a thing or they began to ride them.

Something all mythical origin stories agree on is that they were around before too.

However, Septon Barth does say they may have been genetically engineered by valyrians and their magic (something the Freehold did to begin with), but let's not forget that Barth was a massive Targaryen fanboy, possibly heavily biased towards valyrians in general because of that, making it obvious why he would credit the creation of dragons to valyrians: To elevate Jaehaerys I's status even further. After all, he is one of the 7 preachers of the Doctrine of Exceptionalism.

There's a lot of arguments and counterarguments to be made here, but if they were made by human magic, I'd rather have my vote on ancient asshai.

But the bondage some people (valyrians) are capable to create with them is definitely made possible by magic.

 

Septon Barth has been established by the narrative to be a reliable source of information. 

Dragons did most likely exist before Old Valyria, but the point put forward by Septon Barth's claims is that the dragons used by Valyrians were, to put it in sci-fi terms, genetically engineered by the Valyrians. 

Perhaps they obtained the knowledge on how-to from Asshai. 

[Tyrosh Lannister]

I think the great empire of dawn genetically engineered dragons and the valyrians are their descendants