Worst diplomatic moment in the series ?

[astarkchoice]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

There's a difference between poor communication and not communicating at all though... Stannis was moaning people didn't show up to support him but he didn't tell anyone for months and then when he does tell a few people he gets rejected. In the ACoK prologue he complains that Robb etc. aren't supporting him when he never even tried to establish communications with them in the first place so they had no idea he was even trying to claim the throne.

Yeah he expects Renly to magically know that he's not supporting supposed rightful heir Joffrey but is claiming the throne for himself after being silent for 9 months or more... Like does he think Renly is a telepath or something?

Stannis could have had a lot more support if he acted sooner. It gets even weirder when you consider he was prepping for war before it happened by hiring sellswords and stuff but then when it comes to actually getting word out about his claim he waits for ages.

Part if the problem id say is he goes back to dragonstone where hes virtualy worshipped thus the idea that people wont naturaly defer to him and hes allowed to brood  instead of communicate without renly or roberts  mockery. 

The ironoy of all his whinging about needing kingsblood when its actualy ink and some ravens that could have won him hia crown

[GZ Bloodraven]

Ned telling Cersei he knew. It's not even a "get me my daughters" trade like Catelyn and Jaime, or a "I'm being radicalized into a cult" like Stannis, it's just a misappropriation of mercy, attempting to extend an olive branch and falling off the fucking tree and damning the realm and his family.

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, frenin said:

Renly and Stannis being completely unable to not kill each other when their enemies are at the gates takes the bag.

Gotta love the Baratheons.

You’d think that sinking their differences until the Lannisters were defeated would be a no-brainer.

But, overweening ego mattered more.

[Alden Rothack]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

You’d think that sinking their differences until the Lannisters were defeated would be a no-brainer.

But, overweening ego mattered more.

its not like they are even the worst case of that in the series, thats either Tywin or Cersei

[Castellan]

I believe Doran sending Arianne to decide which dragon to back will prove to be a mistake, as sending Oberyn to KL and Quentyn to Essos.

[The Bard of Banefort]

One from Fire & Blood: Aegon III dismissing Manderly in the rudest way possible, despite not doing anything wrong. He made a completely unnecessary enemy.

[Damsel in Distress]

Stannis doesn't lack for intelligence.  He made diplomatic mistakes because he was so full of social status and his station.  He didn't think it was necessary to have to be diplomatic.  He thought it was his privilege to be obeyed and accommodated. 

 

[Damsel in Distress]

Robb's betrayal of Walder Frey was very bad.  You don't insult your most valuable ally over love.  It wasn't about honor.  Robb didn't have any honor.  It was love that brought his ruin. 

[Craving Peaches]

14 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Robb's betrayal of Walder Frey was very bad.  You don't insult your most valuable ally over love.  It wasn't about honor.  Robb didn't have any honor.  It was love that brought his ruin. 

Walder's betrayal of Robb Stark was very bad. You don't break guest right and murder thousands of people over a broken contract. It wasn't about honour. Walder didn't have any honour. Greed will bring his ruin.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Walder's betrayal of Robb Stark was very bad. You don't break guest right and murder thousands of people over a broken contract. It wasn't about honour. Walder didn't have any honour. Greed will bring his ruin.

What’s weird about the Frey/Bolton/Slynt apologism is that there are stronger grounds to criticise Robb and Jon.

The Northern soldiers’ treatment of civilians was not much better than the Lannisters’ for example;  or Jon’s treatment of Gilly.

But instead, we get endless rubbish.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

What’s weird about the Frey/Bolton/Slynt apologism is that there are stronger grounds to criticise Robb and Jon.

The Northern soldiers’ treatment of civilians was not much better than the Lannisters’ for example;  or Jon’s treatment of Gilly.

But instead, we get endless rubbish.

I mean it's hard to compare to Tywin actively and knowingly sending sadistic monsters such as the Mountain, Amory Lorch and Vargo Hoat to spread destruction, rape and terror upon the smallfolks or the enslavement of civilians at Harrenhal by Tywin and his men. 

And the worst atrocities caused by the northmen were undoubtedly those made by Roose and his men, and no doubt that he hid them from Robb.

So it would have been very hypocrital and non-credible of Tywin and his cronies to try to use that argument. And anyway if none of them even tried to use that argument, it's because none of them give a shit about the populace as they see themselves above the rest of men.

[frenin]

12 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

its not like they are even the worst case of that in the series, thats either Tywin or Cersei

No, for all their faults, Tywin and Cersei knew how to work with Tyrion, even tho they despised.

Renly and Stannis were able to somewhat whereas Robert lived as he was the unquestionable patriarch of the family, but as soon the last dam broke they were completely unable to remember they were brothers and allowed decades of issues fester their common sense.

 

13 hours ago, SeanF said:

But, overweening ego mattered more.

That's why i love the Baratheons, their pride truly know no bounds.

 

 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I mean it's hard to compare to Tywin actively and knowingly sending sadistic monsters such as the Mountain, Amory Lorch and Vargo Hoat to spread destruction, rape and terror upon the smallfolks or the enslavement of civilians at Harrenhal by Tywin and his men. 

And the worst atrocities caused by the northmen were undoubtedly those made by Roose and his men, and no doubt that he hid them from Robb.

So it would have been very hypocrital and non-credible of Tywin and his cronies to try to use that argument. And anyway if none of them even tried to use that argument, it's because none of them give a shit about the populace as they see themselves above the rest of men.

No one in-universe would see anything untoward with paying back the West in kind, for what they did in the Riverlands, or hanging young women for sleeping with enemy soldiers.

So, it’s an out of universe criticism, rather than in-universe.  Ser Amory, Ser Gregor, and Vargo Hoat were a special league of evil.  But, the pillage and arson, carried out by people like Lord Karstark or Lady Mormont, will have left famine in its wake.  And no peasant will hand over livestock and goods voluntarily to an invading army.

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

So it would have been very hypocrital and non-credible of Tywin and his cronies to try to use that argument.

That's true, but that shouldn't stop people on this site using the argument.

2 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I mean it's hard to compare to Tywin actively and knowingly sending sadistic monsters such as the Mountain, Amory Lorch and Vargo Hoat to spread destruction, rape and terror upon the smallfolks or the enslavement of civilians at Harrenhal by Tywin and his men. 

There's nothing Robb does which is deliberate or as bad as the initial action, but later on his soldiers act just like the Lannister ones in terms of how they treat civilians. Look at the poor women in Harrenhal. And the Smallfolk make it clear they are treated badly by the Stark soldiers as well.

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"What of Robb Stark, what has he been doing?"

"There's some of his wolves burning their way down toward Duskendale.

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The man spat. "Likely it were wolves' work, or maybe lions, what's the difference? The wife and I found them dead.

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"I'd stay well clear of that kingsroad, if I were you," the man went on. "It's worse than bad, I hear. Wolves and lions both, and bands of broken men preying on anyone they can catch."

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A man laughed bitterly. "The lions killed Ser Wilbert a year ago. His sons are all off with the Young Wolf, getting fat in the west. You think they give a damn for the likes of us? It was the Mad Huntsman caught these wolves."

Wolves. Arya went cold. Robb's men, and my father's.

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"An old place, deep and secret. A refuge where neither wolves nor lions come prowling."

And not to mention how the deserters act (admittedly Robb does not have much control over this, but the point is the Northern soldiers are also carrying out atrocities).

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"Even with a peace banner, we were attacked twice. Wolves in mail, hungry to savage anyone weaker than themselves. The gods alone know what side they started on, but they're on their own side now. Lost three men, and twice as many wounded."

Also, taking the Cattle of the Westerland's Smallfolk would lead to many starving.

And this does not sound good.

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the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they'd inflicted on the riverlands.

Overall, I would not say Robb is nearly as bad as Tywin, since most of the time he never deliberately orders his soldiers to carry out atrocities. But it cannot be denied that his men often act just as bad as the Lannisters when it comes to how they treat civilians.

[Alden Rothack]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

No, for all their faults, Tywin and Cersei knew how to work with Tyrion, even tho they despised.

Renly and Stannis were able to somewhat whereas Robert lived as he was the unquestionable patriarch of the family, but as soon the last dam broke they were completely unable to remember they were brothers and allowed decades of issues fester their common sense.

I disagree, the Baratheons had to be on opposite sides before their relationship completely broke down and various people on both sides had to put work into making it stick.

Cersei and Tyrion on the other hand continued to undermine each other even when their own lives were on the line,

I'd put the Baratheons a close second but i'd still put the lannisters first, they have cersei after all and shes a bigger fool even than Renly was, I mean Renly fool though he was could have taken the throne with sheer might had he not dithered so long.

[SeanF]

40 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

That's true, but that shouldn't stop people on this site using the argument.

There's nothing Robb does which is deliberate or as bad as the initial action, but later on his soldiers act just like the Lannister ones in terms of how they treat civilians. Look at the poor women in Harrenhal. And the Smallfolk make it clear they are treated badly by the Stark soldiers as well.

 

And not to mention how the deserters act (admittedly Robb does not have much control over this, but the point is the Northern soldiers are also carrying out atrocities).

Also, taking the Cattle of the Westerland's Smallfolk would lead to many starving.

And this does not sound good.

Overall, I would not say Robb is nearly as bad as Tywin, since most of the time he never deliberately orders his soldiers to carry out atrocities. But it cannot be denied that his men often act just as bad as the Lannisters when it comes to how they treat civilians.

There are always degrees of cruelty.

Robb is more like the Black Prince, in terms of the cruelty his men inflict on civilians. The reavers under the command of Tywin are more like Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger.

The Northmens’ priority is pillage and arson, which does result in widespread peasant suffering and death. And, a lot of them rape as well.

Tywin’s reavers’ priority is murder, torture, and rape, although they enjoy pillage and arson, too.

 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Alden Rothack said:

I disagree, the Baratheons had to be on opposite sides before their relationship completely broke down and various people on both sides had to put work into making it stick.

They were on opposite sides in the first place lol, that's not the solid argument you think it is.

 

1 hour ago, Alden Rothack said:

Cersei and Tyrion on the other hand continued to undermine each other even when their own lives were on the line,

Undermined? Yes, tried to kinslay each other when their lives are on the line? No.

Hence why Tyrion and Cersei were laughing, embracing and dancing when they heard about the Baratheon brothers setting  to kill each other. They still knew how to cooperate effectively when the moment called for it.

Whereas Stannis and Renly were completely incapable of even thinking about a temporary truce. In fact when Cersei, and Tywin, finally move against Tyrion the war was all but won thanks to the efforts of Tywin, Tyrion and Cersei.

 

 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Tywin Lannister's "welcoming" of the princess of Dorne and her children after Joanna's death. We all know that Tywin was grieving Joanna but his attitude was certainely very cold and not the right way to treat a fellow lord paramount and potential political match. 

[Alden Rothack]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

They were on opposite sides in the first place lol, that's not the solid argument you think it is.

No they weren't, they only ended up on opposite sides due to others

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Undermined? Yes, tried to kinslay each other when their lives are on the line? No.

Hence why Tyrion and Cersei were laughing, embracing and dancing when they heard about the Baratheon brothers setting  to kill each other. They still knew how to cooperate effectively when the moment called for it.

Whereas Stannis and Renly were completely incapable of even thinking about a temporary truce. In fact when Cersei, and Tywin, finally move against Tyrion the war was all but won thanks to the efforts of Tywin, Tyrion and Cersei.

Tyrion and cersei have occasionally moments where they forget to hate each other when other people do somethin g stupid.

Renly did think about it, he rejected it because he wanted to be king and had an army big enough to get whatever he wanted.

Stannis loved Renly and rejected needing to kill him, Cersei wanted to kill Tyrion simply for existing

5 hours ago, frenin said:

 

 

 

[frenin]

43 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

No they weren't, they only ended up on opposite sides due to others

Who others?

 

43 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Tyrion and cersei have occasionally moments where they forget to hate each other when other people do somethin g stupid.

They don't need to stop hating each other, they just need to, even if they try to undermine each other's positions, collabore to get shit done and save their necks, which they d

 

45 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Renly did think about it, he rejected it because he wanted to be king and had an army big enough to get whatever he wanted.

He rejected allegiance, not a truce, so did Stannis.

And it was always "others", Cat and Cressen, who urged for a temporary truce, the thought never crossed either broother's mind and when it was presented to them they flat out rejected it.

But given you last take, i will simply  agree to disagree.