Which allies and followers Sansa will find ?

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

  A show of opulence or the beginning of the armament of the Vale forces?  What is Little Finger really doing here?

Ohhhh, good insight!  That sneaky LF, however, things may not go as he hopes.       

edt: as for Myranda, yes she's seeming to scheme on LF but could also see her playing with boy toy Harry.      

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by LongRider

[Gilbert Green]

On 6/14/2023 at 3:29 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

For now Sansa Stark is still hiding under the name of Alayne Stone, and learning the ways of politics under Petyr Baelish aka Littlefinger in the Vale, but in due time she will eventually turn into a true political player with her intelligence, observation skills and the political lessons LF has taught to her.

I hate this idea.  Why is it so popular?  Why does everyone want Sansa to become Little Baelish?

Yes, she has plans and schemes.  But they are Sansa plans and Sansa schemes.  Currently, she is making fairy-tale inspired plans to surround Lord Arryn with true and loyal knights.  However, LF agreed to the plan too readily, and no doubt imagines himself to be two steps ahead of her.  He plans to surround Lord Arryn with scumbags loyal only to LF.  And of course he is plotting the murder of Lord Arryn.

On 6/14/2023 at 3:29 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

And once that happens, she will need to have her own allies and supporters that are loyal to her or indebted to her and who will serve and help her and House Stark interests instead of Baelish's.

What about loyalty to Lord Arryn?  Does that count for nothing?  Is she just as bad as Baelish?

On 6/14/2023 at 3:29 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Who do you think you could see her turning into her ally, in the Vale, North and/or the Riverlands ? Which allies and followers do you think that Sansa will make as she turns into her own political player once she's done being Littlefinger's asset ?

Well, to begin with, of the 8 Winged Knights, one good knight will slip through, in spite of LF's scheming.

[Gilbert Green]

On 6/14/2023 at 3:39 PM, King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd said:

I personally think she will marry Harrold Hardying, and he’ll die, be murdered by LF(or Sansa), or become her doormat.

Ugh.  Why does everyone want Sansa to become a villain? 

There is no point in marrying Horrible Harry unless she plans to benefit from the murder of her cousin Lord Arryn.  But according to you, she isn't even going to stop there.

[Gilbert Green]

On 6/14/2023 at 6:13 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

As for Sansa herself, she'll be joining the Vale Clansmen soon.

 

I can see Sansa fleeing into the Mountains, only because I think when push comes to shove, she will try to save her cousin's life.  And one way to do that, if the situation becomes dire enough, is to grab him and flee from LF.  And of course, she will be pursued.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Nevets]

7 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

I hate this idea.  Why is it so popular?  Why does everyone want Sansa to become Little Baelish?

Yes, she has plans and schemes.  But they are Sansa plans and Sansa schemes.  Currently, she is making fairy-tale inspired plans to surround Lord Arryn with true and loyal knights.  However, LF agreed to the plan too readily, and no doubt imagines himself to be two steps ahead of her.  He plans to surround Lord Arryn with scumbags loyal only to LF.  And of course he is plotting the murder of Lord Arryn.

What about loyalty to Lord Arryn?  Does that count for nothing?  Is she just as bad as Baelish?

Well, to begin with, of the 8 Winged Knights, one good knight will slip through, in spite of LF's scheming.

Sansa is not going to turn into Little Baelish, and I doubt her fans desire it.  She'll become better at scheming (planning), influencing people to do what she wants, and becoming more ruthless regarding her enemies.  This is not necessarily a bad thing.  Right now, she's a little too nice for her own good.

She is loyal to Robert Arryn.  She is trying to make him stronger and more confident, which is probably not what Littlefinger wants.  I doubt Littlefinger is interested in Robert Arryn's death, at least for now.  His power is dependent on being the boy's guardian.  But I do think he is deliberately keeping Sweetrobin weak and pliable.

2 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

I can see Sansa fleeing into the Mountains, only because I think when push comes to shove, she will try to save her cousin's life.  And the only way to do that is to grab him and flee from LF.  And of course, she will be pursued.

If she flees anywhere, it is going to be to Littlefinger's enemies.  That probably means Yohn Royce.  Figuring out who her likely allies are should be, and probably will be, at the top of her agenda for the future, as well as making friends with them.

For what it's worth, I do not believe she will marry Harrold Hardyng.

[Gilbert Green]

18 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Sansa is not going to turn into Little Baelish, and I doubt her fans desire it.  She'll become better at scheming (planning), influencing people to do what she wants, and becoming more ruthless regarding her enemies.  This is not necessarily a bad thing.  Right now, she's a little too nice for her own good.

Maybe you don't want her to become EXACTLY like LF.  But you certainly want to bring her closer.

18 minutes ago, Nevets said:

She is loyal to Robert Arryn.  She is trying to make him stronger and more confident, which is probably not what Littlefinger wants.  I doubt Littlefinger is interested in Robert Arryn's death, at least for now.  His power is dependent on being the boy's guardian.  But I do think he is deliberately keeping Sweetrobin weak and pliable.

There is no point to Harry the Heir, unless the plan is for Sweetrobin to die.  LF does not care how confident Sweetrobin is, because he expects him to be a corpse.  "Not if ... when ..."

Edited June 16, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Gilbert Green]

21 hours ago, Aebram said:

A lot of things could happen at this tourney ... and Sansa will be in the middle of it. Will she be a player, or just a piece in the game? I suspect the latter. Sorry, I know many of you are rooting for her, and expect or hope that she will achieve greatness.

I don't want her to achieve greatness.  I want her to achieve goodness.  I want her to try to save her cousin, whose life is obviously in danger. 

I think she is already plotting to do this, in her Sansa way.  This is not obvious, because in her chapters, she is playing a role -- that of Alayne Stone, LF's natural and loyal daughter.  Occasionally, a Sansa thought slips through, and she pushes it down.  I think GRRM is doing this deliberately, so that readers will be surprised when she suddenly takes action.

Her scheme to surround Sweetrobin with Winged Knights was motivated by loyalty to Sweetrobin.

But it only takes 3 rounds of jousting to reduce 64 contestants to 8 finalists.  LF plans to manipulate the pairings, fix matches, and perform other scuzzy tricks, to make sure his men survive those 3 rounds.  Lyn Corbray, who pretends to be hostile to LF, will be one of the winners.  Shadrich never said he did not intend to joust, merely that he does not intend to win.  That will be his role, to lose on purpose to an LF favorite.

But someone will slip through.  Some mystery knight.  That will make 2 people loyal to Sweetrobin instead of one.

But I think that's not going to be enough. 

[Nevets]

57 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Maybe you don't want her to become EXACTLY like LF.  But you certainly want to bring her closer.

There is no point to Harry the Heir, unless the plan is for Sweetrobin to die.  LF does not care how confident Sweetrobin is, because he expects him to be a corpse.  "Not if ... when ..."

There is a vast gulf between Sansa's way of thinking and Baelish's.  Simply getting closer still leaves a big gap.  So at this point I'm not too worried.  If she moves too far in his direction, then I'll get worried.

Everybody expects Sweetrobin to die.  "Arryn won't live long to breed".  That was Jaime talking, and it's not homicide he's thinking of.  In a world like this one, poor health is usually a bigger threat than human enemies.

[Gilbert Green]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

There is a vast gulf between Sansa's way of thinking and Baelish's.  Simply getting closer still leaves a big gap.  So at this point I'm not too worried.  If she moves too far in his direction, then I'll get worried.

What she needs to do is start moving in the other direction.  She needs to save her cousin.

LF all-but told her he is planning Sweetrobin's murder.  Her response is, at first disappointing.  In the very next chapter, after she receives this horrifying revelation, she is back to playing Alayne Stone, and at least pretending to herself that she is LF's loyal daughter going along with his schemes, and planning to marry Horrible Harry.

That is already a reason to be worried.

On the positive note, it may be illusion.  Sansa may be hiding her true self behind the fiction of Alayne, as she plots privately.  And her "Winged Knight" scheme is, at least on its surface, a plot to protect Sweetrobin.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Gilbert Green]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

Everybody expects Sweetrobin to die.  "Arryn won't live long to breed".  That was Jaime talking, and it's not homicide he's thinking of.  In a world like this one, poor health is usually a bigger threat than human enemies.

Sansa does not expect him to die.  She did not even understand why "Harry the Heir" was called "Harry the Heir".  And even after LF's "not if, when" speech, she still talks and acts as if she hopes and expects him to survive long enough to marry.

As for Jaime, if he thinks a little boy ought to die, then out the window he goes, I guess. 

LF is thinking of murder.  Colemon understands this.  I think by now Sansa understands it too.  But she hides it from her surface thoughts in her "Alayne" chapters.

 

[Mithras]

From Pawn to ... Pawn. 

[SeanF]

I know I shouldn't, but I do find the idea of Sansa, grimly marking down Sweetrobin for death, blackly funny.

[Corvo the Crow]

18 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I can see Sansa fleeing into the Mountains, only because I think when push comes to shove, she will try to save her cousin's life.  And one way to do that, if the situation becomes dire enough, is to grab him and flee from LF.  And of course, she will be pursued.

To save Robert she can just reveal that LF killed Lysa though. Of course this will most likely blow her cover immediately but it was intended that her ture identity to be revealed anyway.

[Gilbert Green]

9 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

To save Robert she can just reveal that LF killed Lysa though. Of course this will most likely blow her cover immediately but it was intended that her ture identity to be revealed anyway.

I don't think Sansa is this naive.  She probably guesses that she will only be throwing Sweetrobin from one wolf to another, while depriving him of the only person (herself) who is (I hope) interested in his protection.

[Corvo the Crow]

6 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I don't think Sansa is this naive.  She probably guesses that she will only be throwing Sweetrobin from one wolf to another, while depriving him of the only person (herself) who is (I hope) interested in his protection.

She’ll be throwing him to his vassals, the base of his power as a lord. He could become a toy for them for years to come but at least if he survives he could eventually act for himself but  without his title as a lord he is weak, sickly addicted boy that will be deprived of both the substance he is addicted to and a maester’s care. Almost certain death.

 

[BalerionTheCat]

On 6/15/2023 at 12:13 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

As for Sansa herself, she'll be joining the Vale Clansmen soon. Sansa is Ygritte to Timett's Jon and her allies and followers will include Vale Clansmen, especially Timett and his burned men. Timett has seen her and he knows and respects Tyrion, declaring herself to be his wife would help her avoid being taken as a wife to some clansmen while if news of Jon and Stannis letting Wildlings has reached the Vale, Sansa can actually use that to her advantage as well. Clansmen have demonstrated that they are willing to make deals and Timett has shown that he understands some concepts, such as following orders of a leader, that are alien to the rest of his fellows. Sansa can promise them a reward to deliver her to her brother, the Lord Commander who has shown himself to be not hostile to wildlings.

I think Sansa could be to the Clans what Jon is to the Free Folk. The Clans, like the Free Folk, are First Men, followers of the Old Gods. By the end, they should be Jon and Bran and all the Starks care.

I believe Sansa and Timett could meet. Find some mutual assistance and opportunity in this difficult time. I imagine Shadrich could abduct her. On his way to KL, the clans could recover her.

Edited June 18, 2023 by BalerionTheCat

[Corvo the Crow]

4 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I believe Sansa and Timett could meet. Find some mutual assistance and opportunity in this difficult time. I imagine Shadrich could abduct her. On his way to KL, the clans could recover her.

That's probably what will happen or something similar to that. Sansa is a redhead and a skirling (a small trout) in the Vale. Ygritte the redhead was in Skirling Pass, a vale when Jon captured her.

Jon is a one eyed(he has both eyes but a has a scar over one) burned men with a red hand (from his burn), Timett is a redhand( a title)  of the Burned Men tribe. Sansa is a female Stark through her Stark father that will get captured by a wildling, Jon is a male Stark through his Stark mother who has captured a wildling.  I believe Sansa will eventually end up with Jon, jumping from one one eyed burned men to the next, first Sandor, then Timett and finally Jon.

[Corvo the Crow]

A bit of foreshadowing perhaps?

 

Quote

The gates of the manse were closed and barred. Tyrion pounded until the ornate bronze eye clacked open. "It's me." The man who admitted him was one of Varys's prettier finds, a Braavosi daggerman with a harelip and a lazy eye. Tyrion had wanted no handsome young guardsmen loitering about Shae day after day. "Find me old, ugly, scarred men, preferably impotent," he had told the eunuch. "Men who prefer boys. Or men who prefer sheep, for that matter." Varys had not managed to come up with any sheeplovers, but he did find a eunuch strangler and a pair of foul-smelling Ibbenese who were as fond of axes as they were of each other. The others were as choice a lot of mercenaries as ever graced a dungeon, each uglier than the last. When Varys had paraded them before him, Tyrion had been afraid he'd gone too far, but Shae had never uttered a word of complaint. And why would she? She has never complained of me, and I'm more hideous than all her guards together. Perhaps she does not even see ugliness.

Even so, Tyrion would sooner have used some of his mountain clansmen to guard the manse; Chella's Black Ears perhaps, or the Moon Brothers. He had more faith in their iron loyalties and sense of honor than in the greed of sellswords. The risk was too great, however. All King's Landing knew the wildlings were his. If he sent the Black Ears here, it would only be a matter of time until the whole city knew the King's Hand was keeping a concubine.

Shae "not even seeing ugliness" is also interesting considering the kiss that Sansa fantasizes comes from a guy whose face is half burned and she considered to be ugly and Timett also has a burned eye so I don't think he'll be much easier on the eye either.

Quote

"With this kiss I pledge my love," the dwarf replied hoarsely, "and take you for my lady and wife." He leaned forward, and their lips touched briefly.

He is so ugly, Sansa thought when his face was close to hers. He is even uglier than the Hound.

The septon raised his crystal high, so the rainbow light fell down upon them. "Here in the sight of gods and men," he said, "I do solemnly proclaim Tyrion of House Lannister and Sansa of House Stark to be man and wife, one flesh, one heart, one soul, now and forever, and cursed be the one who comes between them."

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Lady Ella]

Sansa does not need to suddenly transform into some sort of "master player" in order to win the Vale. A lot of the groundwork has already been done for her. She merely needs to demonstrate that she's her father's daughter. As a member of House Stark, Sansa has been taught to play the Game of Thrones since birth, even if she doesn't realise it. She will know instinctively what to do. The lessons she has learnt in King's Landing will, if anything, reinforce the lessons she learnt in Winterfell. All she needs to do is learn to put those skills into practice, similar to the transformation Robb underwent on his path to kingship.

In large part thanks to Ned's popularity, the Vale is already half for the Starks, and many lords urged Lysa to join Robb, chief among them Bronze Yohn Royce. He's the key here. The Arryns are weak and Petyr Baelish's power isn't real. That gives Royce the chance to seize power in the Vale. He and Sansa can help each other. Littefinger's power derives from the Iron Throne. Sansa represents a rival throne and, as far as the Vale lords are concerned, she is the only surviving Stark and therefore the rightful Queen in the North. If the Vale lords renounce fealty to the Iron Throne and swear fealty to the Starks instead, Sansa can name a different regent of the Vale ... say, Bronze Yohn Royce? The Vale may not have been willing to join the Starks by defying Lysa Arryn, but defying Littlefinger is a different matter.

However, the support of the Vale lords will mean nothing if the Northern lords refuse to recognise Sansa as queen, and I think they will refuse, at least at first, because Robb was pretty clear that Sansa should not inherit. The same is true of the River lords. So Sansa may well win the Vale over to the Starks' cause but will end up not being the actual ruler. However, this may change later if King Jon doesn't work out. Again, though, Sansa doesn't need to show hitherto unsuspected skills in order to win the support of the Northern lords. She has a great advantage in being Ned's eldest living child. All she needs to do is prove that she's a Stark.

[Gilbert Green]

15 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

She’ll be throwing him to his vassals, the base of his power as a lord. He could become a toy for them for years to come but at least if he survives he could eventually act for himself but  without his title as a lord he is weak, sickly addicted boy that will be deprived of both the substance he is addicted to and a maester’s care. Almost certain death.

Sweetrobin is not addicted to anything but sugar and honey.  Actual sweetsleep tastes vile to him.

Sansa's plan is to gain allies for Sweetrobin by surrounding him with Winged Knights.  I'm guessing something will come of this, since GRRM has devoted considerable buildup to the coming tournament.   In the end, she will gain one ally.  7 false knights, and 1 true.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Gilbert Green