Unpopular Opinions You Have?

[astarkchoice]

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The main problem with Robert as King, for me, was his rejoicing over the deaths of a young woman and her two infants, and then rewarding the perpetrator of the deed.

He didnt rejoice..shit as ser barristan recalls he didnt even smirk (or he and bobby b would have had themselves a fight there and then) 

And he didnt reward ser gregor or lorch.

If you mean tywin he was his ally and they needed to wed to the lannsiters ro stabilize the realm

[The Sleeper]

12 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

And your edit still doesn't solve the problem of differenciating monarchies and other human societies. In fact, you stressed the similarities: that people in power tend to rot away no matter they got up there by blood relations or ... any method, really.

That's certainly an aspect of it, but not what I was going for.

To clarify, Robert had a Hand, councilors and vassals all with their own agendas and context and therefore had constraints on his ability to exercise power. Theoretically, he could order anyone to do anything, for instance he could order Tywin to dump all his gold into the sea. Of course that would cost him a major source of income and Tywin would never do that.

How any king rules depends on his support, administration and bureaucracy and has limits to his authority. Acting outside of those limits undermines his ability to exercise power and also has the pressure to reinforce the power of those immediately lower than them in the chain of command in order to maintain their own power. Hence the person of the sovereign influences the outcome only so far.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find any human society where this power dynamic doesn't exist though its influence varies of course.

[SeanF]

49 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

He didn't really 'rejoice' though, there is no indication he was happy about it. I think if he had been happy about it Ned would have a worse opinion of him, Ned says he 'called it war' which to be suggestions a begrudging acceptance rather than happiness. Yes Robert should have punished Tywin, and maybe he thought the deaths were 'for the best' in terms of future stability of the realm, but I doubt he was particularly happy about it, certainly no displays of glee as 'rejoice' would imply. Robert isn't a psycho, when Joffrey acts like one he doesn't like it at all.

"I see no children, only dragonspawn" sounds a lot like rejoicing to me.  It's like Vitellius' "Dead enemies smell good.  Dead Romans smell even better."  

That doesn't someone just saying "bad things happen in war."

Edited July 5, 2023 by SeanF

[SeanF]

41 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

He didnt rejoice..shit as ser barristan recalls he didnt even smirk (or he and bobby b would have had themselves a fight there and then) 

And he didnt reward ser gregor or lorch.

If you mean tywin he was his ally and they needed to wed to the lannsiters ro stabilize the realm

Ser Barristan was not present when he made that comment to Ned.

[frenin]

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Basic things like how Robb and Sansa aren't in an incestous relationship, Ned not randomly hating one of his children for something outside of his control, not being mistrustful of basic human emotions like amusement, not treating his children like pawns to the extent Tywin does, the way he speaks to them and treats them etc. all show Ned was a better parent.

Seems to me we're both arguing to walls.

I have never said and or implied in way that that Tywin remotely comparable to Ned in the parenting department lol.

 

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also, where do you get the idea Ned explicitly told Robb that? Ned himself has a bastard and Theon is sleeping around, 

So Robb believing he has to follow Ned's code of honor...

 

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm not basing my opinion of the Stark children on the show but on the original title for the last book though. I haven't seen after season 3 of the show.

So you're basing your opinion on a book title that surely would have more than one meaning and has long since been changed?

 

 

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Cersei walked through the street naked, Joffrey is dead, Cersei has done things like default on the Iron Bank and bring back the Faith Militant, people were mocking at Tywin's funeral, the reputation of the House is steadily going down the drain...

And yet they are still in power in the Realm and they can always fall back on the West.

 

 

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Tywin's branch consists of Cersei, Tyrion and Jaime. Cersei is making idiot decision after idiot decision, it is a wonder she isn't dead already and there is a prophecy saying she will die, Tyrion is in a warzone and if he ends up with Daenerys he will be exposed to yet more war, to be honest Tyrion should be dead already, Jaime is walking into a hanging and if he somehow survives that he is still going to be in danger, there is also that thing about how he is supposed to die with Cersei, all three are going to face the Others if they aren't dead before then. If you include Tommen and Myrcella, as per the prophecy it doesn't look good for them, the despicable Sand Snakes are coming for Tommen and Myrcella was nearly killed already and is now basically a hostage in Dorne.

Sansa is at the hands of a pedo and is otherwise a wanted kid, Jon and Robb are dead, Rickon is a feral toddler among savages, Arya is enduring a maybe lethal training to be assassin, Bran is beyond the wall with two other children as his defenders.

 

 

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think we are supposed to compare what they've left behind in terms of how people think of them.

People think Tywin is an asshole and yet they still respect him.

 

 

12 hours ago, Nevets said:

Whatever Ned's sins, his children have turned out pretty good. 

Yeah, he's a great father.

 

12 hours ago, Nevets said:

The Lannisters aren't going away, but they do seem to be losing their luster.  Enemies and potential enemies are starting to gather, and the Lannisters have few true friends to call on, unlike the Starks.

They still have strength in numbers, gold and impregnable castle to fall back on... unlike the Starks.

The Lannisters also are pretty well regarded and loved in the West. We

All in all, the only thing that would make me take my chances with Stark kids is the belief they are destined to return to their former glory.

 

 

6 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

The less they do the less mess they will make.

That's not necessarily true.

Sometimes times need action and the inherent meaning of their position is leadership.

 

 

[astarkchoice]

26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

 

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by astarkchoice

[astarkchoice]

27 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Ser Barristan was not present when he made that comment to Ned.

He might  have missed it it seems odd that ser barristand was there when the babies corpses were presented and he missed it

That said the dragonspawn sounds more of an angry almost sociopathic genocidal mentality  comment than snarky  mockery 

Edited July 5, 2023 by astarkchoice

[frenin]

15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

"I see no children, only dragonspawn" sounds a lot like rejoicing to me.  It's like Vitellius' "Dead enemies smell good.  Dead Romans smell even better."  

That doesn't someone just saying "bad things happen in war."

I don't really know how you draw the comparison between one and another. It's dehumanizing, which is horrible on its own without having to make up more context. 

And if you want to blame anyone for "rewarding" Tywin. There's Jon Arryn, although without the benefit of hindsight, marrying Robert and Cersei was the obvious solution to cement their regime, sike tho.

[SeanF]

13 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

He might  have missed it it seems odd that ser barristand was there when the babies corpses were presented and he missed it

That said the dragonspawn sounds more of an angry almost sociopathic genocidal mentality  comment than snarky  mockery 

IIRC he was still recuperating from injuries.

[Craving Peaches]

47 minutes ago, SeanF said:

"I see no children, only dragonspawn" sounds a lot like rejoicing to me.

Rejoicing is when you celebrate something you are happy with. That does not sound like a celebration to me, nor does it sound happy.

[SeanF]

47 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Rejoicing is when you celebrate something you are happy with. That does not sound like a celebration to me, nor does it sound happy.

If I made a comment like that about a pair of murdered children, in real life, what kind of emotion would you think I was expressing?

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, SeanF said:

If I made a comment like that about a pair of murdered children, in real life, what kind of emotion would you think I was expressing?

Indifference or apathy, potentially disdain but it would be difficult to tell without seeing your facial expression.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Indifference or apathy.

I would say rather great satisfaction, contempt for the victims, and a total refusal to recognise their humanity.

What type of person responds like that to the sight of two infants, one slashed to pieces, the other with his head stove in?

Edited July 5, 2023 by SeanF

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, SeanF said:

contempt for the victims, and a total refusal to recognise their humanity.

Yes.

Just now, SeanF said:

I would say rather great satisfaction,

But I don't get this from the comment. There is nothing to me which suggests any kind of glee or satisfaction. Ned does not mention that Robert smiled, sounded satisfied, or anything which suggests he was happy. Later on, when Robert uses same the word, it is when he is angry.

[Craving Peaches]

If Robert expressed satisfaction or glee over dead children, if he was rejoicing over them, I doubt Ned would have made up with him.

My interpretation was that Robert's blatant dismissal of the children's death as just something that happens in war combined with his failure to punish Tywin was what drove him and Ned apart, not Robert acting like a complete psycho by celebrating dead children, of which we have nothing to suggest he did, and should certainly be talked about by Ned more if it occurred.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[SeanF]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

If Robert expressed satisfaction or glee over dead children, if he was rejoicing over them, I doubt Ned would have made up with him.

They made up over Lyanna’s death.

But, yes, it’s always been a mystery to me what Ned saw in him.

[astarkchoice]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

If Robert expressed satisfaction or glee over dead children, if he was rejoicing over them, I doubt Ned would have made up with him.

Yep and barristan made it clear his policy with new king robert  was fight on sight at any joy expressed

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

They made up over Lyanna’s death.

I doubt Ned would make up with him despite Lyanna dying, if Robert was outright gleeful that infant children were brutally murdered. That would make Robert look like a psycho on the level of Joffrey, which conflicts with the fact that Robert is disgusted with/unnerved by Joffrey's psychopathic tendancies, and should certainly be brought up by Ned and probably other characters, not to mention conflicts with Robert's other traits such as being merciful to his enemies, generous and someone that people generally enjoy being around.

[csuszka1948]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Rejoicing is when you celebrate something you are happy with. That does not sound like a celebration to me, nor does it sound happy.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, Robert seems to be happy with that outcome:

"Ned knew he was pushing this well past the point of wisdom, yet he could not keep silent. "Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?"

"To put an end to Targaryens!" the king growled."

That doesn't mean that he will look happy seeing the outcome, the actual bodies of the children he wanted dead.

Edited July 5, 2023 by csuszka1948

[SaffronLady]

Robert decided Rhaegar stealing his fiancee was enough of a crime to condemn all the Targs to death, so he saw the deaths of Rhaegar's kids as 'well it has to be this way'. End of story, really. Sometimes it is enough to know a character's actions have a reason, rather than asking them to be reasonable.