Catelyn Stark was right, about basically everything

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 7/17/2023 at 3:16 PM, sifth said:

It's just one of those strange things you notice, whenever you reread the first book. GRRM didn't have the universe completely fleshed out. For example he also had a line by Cat in her first chapter, informing the reader that there were no weirdwoods south of the Neck, but in the North one could be found in every castle. Yet, as we learn in the later books, every major castle has a weirwood, even Riverrun, where Cat grew up. In fact, I think Robb and his northern men pray in front of Riverrun's weirwood at the end of the first book.

Yeah, you're right. The series is so massive with so much detail I don't remember all that when I'm reading. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 7/17/2023 at 4:12 PM, sifth said:

So if one of your generals had the last name Hitler and happened to be his great grandson, you'd completely trust him, no questions asked? Listen, I liked Cat as well, but trusting Roose Bolton was a mistake she made. She's a flawed character, like every other character in the series. I like Tyrion as well, but I'm not going to make excuses for the mistakes he made.

But it wasn't with no questions asked. The Boltons have been loyal to the Starks for some time. Not sure how Hitler plays into this, Roose is a weirdo but he's no Hitler. 

I'm not disagreeing it was a mistake. Obviously it was, he betrayed them. My contention is with the statement that she should have some how known. There was no reason to not trust him & every reason to trust him at that point. 

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But it wasn't with no questions asked. The Boltons have been loyal to the Starks for some time. Not sure how Hitler plays into this, Roose is a weirdo but he's no Hitler. 

I'm not disagreeing it was a mistake. Obviously it was, he betrayed them. My contention is with the statement that she should have some how known. There was no reason to not trust him & every reason to trust him at that point. 

This

 

With the crannogmen to the south sworn to them , the karstarks firmly established up north  and the maderlys south east too it means the boltons are utterly surrounded by staunch stark allies thus probably havent given any trouble in centuries thus robb had no reason to.doubt

Edited July 19, 2023 by astarkchoice

[frenin]

On 7/17/2023 at 10:36 PM, BlackLightning said:

Look, trusting Roose Bolton was a mistake. But that's not something she -- or anyone else -- could have possibly known or foresaw.

Jon could, because apparently Ned only confided to him Roose was untrustworthy, that or Martin pulled it out of his arse, which is my preferred choice.

 

 

On 7/18/2023 at 2:39 AM, Alester Florent said:

There is a big middle ground between "Cat is always right" and "Cat is always wrong" and that's where I live.

Ditto.

 

On 7/18/2023 at 4:17 AM, sifth said:

Are you saying Ramsay is the soul reason he betrayed the Starks? 

Without Winterfell falling... Robb's has heirs and taking the North becomes pretty much impossible.

 

On 7/18/2023 at 11:09 AM, The hairy bear said:

I don't seen any indication that he wasn't trusted.

No, we know Ned didn't trust him.

Jon says as much. All the more baffling how Cat and Robb somehow missed that, especially Robb who was willing to emulate his father to the bitter end.

 

 

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

But it wasn't with no questions asked. The Boltons have been loyal to the Starks for some time. Not sure how Hitler plays into this, Roose is a weirdo but he's no Hitler. 

I'm not disagreeing it was a mistake. Obviously it was, he betrayed them. My contention is with the statement that she should have some how known. There was no reason to not trust him & every reason to trust him at that point. 

The flayed man banner, Ned never trusting him, Robb saying he scared the living day lights out of him. I mean there are quite a lot of red flags.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

This

 

With the crannogmen to the south sworn to them , the karstarks firmly established up north  and the maderlys south east too it means the boltons are utterly surrounded by staunch stark allies thus probably havent given any trouble in centuries thus robb had no reason to.doubt

Wasn't Roose raping people on his own land, not to mention covering for Ramsay's extracurricular activities. I know he kept things quite, but he was still very much a horrible human.

Plus I think Jon has a line, about how his father never trusted Roose.

[astarkchoice]

40 minutes ago, sifth said:

Wasn't Roose raping people on his own land, not to mention covering for Ramsay's extracurricular activities. I know he kept things quite, but he was still very much a horrible human.

Plus I think Jon has a line, about how his father never trusted Roose.

 

Yeah he kept that quiet though ..my point was since those alliances were formed the boltons probably havent been rebellious agaisnt stark rule in centuries , mainly as they have karstarks to the north and manderlys to their rear!!!

Yeah ned could read people ok as could robb..but an iffy feeling isnt enough to act on.

[Ran]

4 hours ago, sifth said:

Wasn't Roose raping people on his own land

Yes. He also says the Umbers do the same, though they deny it.

[Usako]

I look at the Roose thing as Ned following the adage of "keep your friends close and your enemies closer". He didn't trust the man, but he had given him no reason to act against him, par Roose's own philosophy of "a peaceful land, a quiet people." So because of that, it is better to keep him close, keep him in his counsel, in respect of the position and power of the Boltons. And, yes we're told later through Jon that Ned had warned him not to trust him, which would mean Robb had been told that as well, but would have also been told that there was no point in antagonizing the Boltons without Roose giving reason.

Would he have told this to Cat? Unlikely. So, she would just see the "public" image of Roose coupled with his past interactions with Ned. I'm not a fan of Cat at all, but without the benefit of hindsight, I can see based on that why she would have pushed for making Roose in charge.

Yes, it might have been better to appoint the Greatjon and keep Roose close to Robb, but that's a total unknown. We don't know enough about that scenario as opposed to what we were giving to really answer that. Only George would know that.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Usako

[sifth]

3 hours ago, Ran said:

Yes. He also says the Umbers do the same, though they deny it.

Yea, but any information given from Roose, is questionable at best. The guy is a proven liar.

[James Arryn]

10 hours ago, sifth said:

The flayed man banner, Ned never trusting him, Robb saying he scared the living day lights out of him. I mean there are quite a lot of red flags.

If the Greatjon ended up betraying him we would see the finger chomp as a clear indicator. Robb had to work with what he had, and Bolton was amongst his most senior commanders. If Ned ever thought Roose Bolton likely to betray the Starks, he’d have done something. But there was nothing but creepiness. Believe me, medieval rulers have to work with things a lot worse than creepiness if they want to function. 

The thing with Bolton was no one ever gave reasons for distrusting him except his eyes and his quiet voice. These are not great reasons upon which to make strategic decisions. Everyone sees the signs afterwards. 

[SaffronLady]

On 7/18/2023 at 3:16 AM, sifth said:

every major castle has a weirwood

Isn't it "godswood" though? And the southern ones have their weirwood heart tree cut out?

[sifth]

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Isn't it "godswood" though? And the southern ones have their weirwood heart tree cut out?

No, some southern castles have weirwoods and Riverrun is one of them. Raven Tree Hall as well, the seat of House Blackwood, who Cat probably visited at some point, since they’re her fathers bannermen. 

[SaffronLady]

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

No, some southern castles have weirwoods and Riverrun is one of them. Raven Tree Hall as well, the seat of House Blackwood, who Cat probably visited at some point, since they’re her fathers bannermen. 

I think I understand what I am saying.

[sifth]

7 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

I think I understand what I am saying.

The link literally lists every castle that still has a weirwood. 

Heck I learned from that link that Highgarden has 3 weirwoods. 

7 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Edited July 20, 2023 by sifth

[SaffronLady]

15 minutes ago, sifth said:

The link literally lists every castle that still has a weirwood. 

Heck I learned from that link that Highgarden has 3 weirwoods. 

I wanted to be nice and remind you that godswood and weirwood are 2 things without saying that out loud, but whatever.

[BlackLightning]

23 hours ago, frenin said:

Jon could, because apparently Ned only confided to him Roose was untrustworthy, that or Martin pulled it out of his arse, which is my preferred choice.

I think it's both a case of Martin pulling it out of his ass and Jon reflecting on Roose's untrustworthiness in hindsight.

I think it's worth pointing out that Ned Stark and his House are not universally beloved or respected.

Barbrey Dustin has had several axes to grind against Ned Stark (and his father) and her Ryswell family is likely sympathetic. Jorah Mormont hates Ned Stark (and probably Catelyn too) but his hatred is almost completely irrational and misplaced. And Rickard Karstark is who he is: he likely found anything less than a betrothal between Robb and Alys to be mildly insulting. Cregan, Arnolf and the rest of that side of the Karstark family were always assholes; we saw that in Bran POV chapters in Game and Clash when they almost openly made fun of Bran and claimed that he should kill himself. I can't say that we should not be surprised that they would betray their own family and Stannis, but it bears mentioning that they were clearly not good people but that Ned and Cat (and later Robb) still expected them to do their jobs and be loyal.

The point I'm making is that a lot of people in the fandom feel like the northerners are saints compared to the southerners. Although the northerners are nowhere near as greedy and backstabby, they have their flaws. In particular, the northmen are wilder and moodier than their southern counterparts. Yet in still, it is one thing to be unkind and rough and another thing to plot to undermine and betray people who are blameless.

I'll even go so far as to say this: even if Robb had kept Roose by his side and gave Greatjon the command of the other side of his forces, that would not have prevented Ramsay's rampage during "A Clash of Kings" NOR would it have prevented the attack of the Greyjoys.

We don't know (yet) if Roose was the mastermind behind Ramsay's raping of Donella Hornwood and the sacking of Winterfell...or if Ramsay acted of his own accord and Roose simply took advantage of that. In the end, it almost doesn't really matter: Winterfell would've still been screwed as it would've had to deal with a rebellion (Ramsay) and an invasion (the ironmen) with their senior most official being a boy prince (Bran) and most of their good fighting men away at war. Even if nothing happened to the Stark boys and Winterfell was able to stand strong, it would've had yet another invasion (Mance Rayder and the wildlings) to deal with.

A lot of what happened to the Starks was really bad luck. A lot of people love to blame Catelyn but it's really just bad luck.

23 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

This

With the crannogmen to the south sworn to them , the karstarks firmly etablished up north  and the maderlys south east too it means the boltons are utterly surrounded by staunch stark allies thus probably havent given any trouble in centuries thus robb had no reason to.doubt

Don't forget about the Targaryens. The dragon kings of House Targaryen and a united Seven Kingdoms served as a huge deterrent. 

But yes, it bears repeating that the Boltons have been loyal to the Starks for close to four hundred years. There's absolutely no reason to think that they would betray and sabotage them...

22 hours ago, sifth said:

The flayed man banner, Ned never trusting him, Robb saying he scared the living day lights out of him. I mean there are quite a lot of red flags.

Right and the Umbers have a banner of a screaming giant breaking chains

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

23 hours ago, sifth said:

The flayed man banner, Ned never trusting him, Robb saying he scared the living day lights out of him. I mean there are quite a lot of red flags.

The flayed man banner means nothing, many have weird things on their banners. I don't recall the quote about Jon saying Ned never trusted him but if so he probably should have let his heir know rather than his bastard. 

 

This is war, he isn't trying to find men that will go out & pick daisies, he wants seasoned men. I'd imagine the Greatjon gave him a bit of a fright also & probably still does. 

 

Look at Gregor Clegane for instance, a sadistic monster & well known yet it doesn't stop Tywin from trusting him to the tasks he sets forth for him. 

There were essentially no red flags. Should Robb had said; Listen, Roose, I know the Boltons have served the Starks faithfully for many moons but you have a flayed man on your banner, which upsets my delicate stomach & besides you scare me a little so I'll not be utilizing your loyalty or your army, thanks any how? 

No one foresaw Bolton's betrayal, kind of odd if there were indeed all of these "red flags" right? 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

23 hours ago, sifth said:

Wasn't Roose raping people on his own land, not to mention covering for Ramsay's extracurricular activities. I know he kept things quite, but he was still very much a horrible human.

Plus I think Jon has a line, about how his father never trusted Roose.

He says he raped Ramsay's mom but we don't have any reason to believe Ned/Robb were made aware of it. I'm not sure what of Ramsay's activities he is covering for either though he does say he believes Ramsay killed Domeric. 

Also, there is a difference between trusting a man to care for your wife & children vs trusting a man to do defeat his enemy in battle. There was no reason to question Roose's loyalty or his battle skills. I'll agree they shouldn't have been leaving someone like Roose to baby sit but he was well suited for the job he was given. 

[sifth]

5 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I wanted to be nice and remind you that godswood and weirwood are 2 things without saying that out loud, but whatever.

I know that very well. The link you sent me still states that many major castles have weirwoods in their godswood.

Casterly Rock

It contains a twisted weirwood, whose tangled roots have almost filled the cave, choking out all other growth.

Harrenhal

Besides a weirwood heart tree with a terrible face, it contains pines, sentinels, and a little stream. Bats hunt at night.

Riverrun

Its heart tree is a slender weirwood with a sad face.^[14]