Catelyn Stark was right, about basically everything

[Tradecraft]

The things Catelyn Stark was right about are insane. 

The only thing she ever got wrong was Littlefinger. She should have known him better, but goddamn was she right about virtually everything else. 

She don't miss

-Catelyn immediately deduces the Lannister incest and attempt to push Bran out of the window in her early chapters in GoT. 

-Robb shouldn't have sent Theon Greyjoy away (cost him the North) like Cat said. 

-Robb should have kept his marriage pact with the Freys (cost him everything at the Red Wedding) like Cat wanted. 

-Releasing Jaime Lannister wasn't the worst call. He lost his hand in the Riverlands and so he's no longer a fighter (something she couldn't have foreseen?). He might have gotten Sansa Stark released if he had the chance in KL. I'd call this a wash/ neutral decision on cat's part. 

-Catelyn was right about the Westerlings. Jeyne's family were not to be trusted. 

-Catelyn was right to tell Robb to keep his direwolf close at all times and to not trust people that Greywind didn't like. 

-She sensed the red wedding as coming and slapped Edwyn Frey for his deception (wearing armor under his silks).  

-Robb sends Catelyn to Renly against her wishes. When she returns, Robb is married to Jeyne Westerling. She would have objected to the marriage if she was there, she couldn't afterwards. She thought as much when she met Jeyne. 

 

We're biased against female POV Chapters and, GRRM uses it against us 

 

Let's be honest. How many of us skimmed or skipped a female chapter because it "wasn't important". I have, sad to say. 

I sense that GRRM is using these natural or society taught biases against us. 

We're trained to think women are crazy, jealous, paranoid and weak (physically and emotionally). We don't like female figures in authority, it feels too much like they're trying to be our mothers or, it returns the feeling of being bossed aroubd by our mothers. It infantilizes us. 

Women aren't "supposed" to be in charge in our societies, and so we reject Catelyn and her ideas. People will accept paternal authority figures well enough, that "feels right" under our patriarchal society. Men are "supposed" to lead. Men are "strong" and "decisive"... Like Robb Stark. 

We see characters like Robb defying his mother on the matter of sending Theon Greyjoy away and we side with Robb (at least on the first read)... Despite Catelyn's advice and her insanely good track record. 

The worst thing people have against Catelyn is that she released Jaime and, I don't even find that too bad. Jaime isn't really a threat to the Tullies or Starks after he's released. What'd he do after he was released? Capture some doomed castles under siege in the Riverlands? 

 

[Alester Florent]

I think she made a number of bad calls.

Arresting Tyrion with insufficient evidence was a poor political play that led directly to retaliation against Ned, his injury and incapacitation, not to mention the further political consequences.

Releasing Jaime, Robb's greatest bargaining chip, for a vague promise that he would try to get Sansa back, something he had no power to accomplish, and Arya too, something he had even less ability to do, was ridiculous. This led indirectly but predictably to the Karstark mutiny and a further weakening of Robb's position.

Robb's initial instinct was to appoint the Greatjon to command his infantry. Cat talks him out of it and he appoints Roose Bolton instead. Whether Roose commanded any better at the Green Fork than GJ would have is debatable. What is less debatable is that having Robb's largest field army under the command of a dubiously loyal bannerman rather than his most stalwart supporter was a long-term disaster. Had GJ been in charge of that army instead of Roose, the betrayal at Duskendale and probably the Red Wedding itself would have been off the table, and Jaime would likely have been returned, two-handed, to Robb's custody.

[Craving Peaches]

I like Catelyn (because her chapters have lots of Renly). But there are a few things I hold against her. She made several diplomatic gaffes when she went to treat with Renly. Certainly she was a better choice than the Greatjon. But she refuses to call Renly 'King' on numerous occasions, despite the fact she's supposed to be asking him to help Robb, and despite the fact that she herself said earlier it would be a good idea...

Catelyn I, ACoK

Quote

Her uncle looked at her thoughtfully. "Lord Renly."

"King Renly." If she would ask help from the man, she would need to grant him the style he had claimed for himself.

But then Catelyn III, ACoK

Quote

"The distance between a lord and a grace is a small one, my lady," Catelyn said. "Lord Renly wears a crown, as does my son. If you wish, we may stand here in the mud and debate what honors and titles are rightly due to each, but it strikes me that we have more pressing matters to consider."

???

Not that Renly took offence, because he is a good-hearted soul, but he might have. Imagine if she said that to Stannis!

Also, her suggestion of a Great Council, while coming from a good place, was silly. There are a multitude of reasons why no one would concur (including Robb, despite what she says), and if she wanted to bring it up why on earth did she not mention it at the parley when both Renly and Stannis were present? She is suggesting it moments before Renly is going into battle! Even if he liked the idea, what was he going to do? Tell everyone to pack it in and march to Harrenhal because he has a Great Council to attend?

The decision to capture Tyrion was also a bit rash.

Releasing Jaime was really stupid...

And yet again we see her not following her own advice when it comes to dealing with people you've not seen for a while.

Catelyn I, AGoT

Quote

I know the man!"

"You knew the man," she said. "The king is a stranger to you."

Where was this piece of advice when she was dealing with Littlefinger?

I do like Catelyn and think she is one of the (morally) better people in the series, but she does make a few bad decisions which damage the fortunes of House Stark and she seems to have an odd inclination to not follow her own good advice...

[astarkchoice]

I think she gets aotta shit for a lady who loses like 4 kids her husband and father in short order and for some reason her own sister who could help stop it all is being a c#£t

[Tradecraft]

33 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I think she made a number of bad calls.

Arresting Tyrion with insufficient evidence was a poor political play that led directly to retaliation against Ned, his injury and incapacitation, not to mention the further political consequences.

Releasing Jaime, Robb's greatest bargaining chip, for a vague promise that he would try to get Sansa back, something he had no power to accomplish, and Arya too, something he had even less ability to do, was ridiculous. This led indirectly but predictably to the Karstark mutiny and a further weakening of Robb's position.

Robb's initial instinct was to appoint the Greatjon to command his infantry. Cat talks him out of it and he appoints Roose Bolton instead. Whether Roose commanded any better at the Green Fork than GJ would have is debatable. What is less debatable is that having Robb's largest field army under the command of a dubiously loyal bannerman rather than his most stalwart supporter was a long-term disaster. Had GJ been in charge of that army instead of Roose, the betrayal at Duskendale and probably the Red Wedding itself would have been off the table, and Jaime would likely have been returned, two-handed, to Robb's custody.

Kidnapping Tyrion was her least worst option. If she let him get away, he'd tell the Lannister she was creeping around the Riverlands. Jaime and Cersei would be alerted that the Starks know about Bran. 

Catelyn is right that it is unjust for Robb to not trade Jaime for "Arya and Sansa". Jaime doesn't really accomplish anything once he's out. And Jaime as a hostage doesn't change the outcome of anything, including the war. It keeps the Karstarks. But Robb didn't lose bc of the Karstarks. 

Roose was loyal until he wasn't. He saw an opening. He's a good commander. Even if he was disloyal and looking to betray Robb. 

[Tradecraft]

9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I like Catelyn (because her chapters have lots of Renly). But there are a few things I hold against her. She made several diplomatic gaffes when she went to treat with Renly. Certainly she was a better choice than the Greatjon. But she refuses to call Renly 'King' on numerous occasions, despite the fact she's supposed to be asking him to help Robb, and despite the fact that she herself said earlier it would be a good idea...

Catelyn I, ACoK

But then Catelyn III, ACoK

???

Not that Renly took offence, because he is a good-hearted soul, but he might have. Imagine if she said that to Stannis!

Also, her suggestion of a Great Council, while coming from a good place, was silly. There are a multitude of reasons why no one would concur (including Robb, despite what she says), and if she wanted to bring it up why on earth did she not mention it at the parley when both Renly and Stannis were present? She is suggesting it moments before Renly is going into battle! Even if he liked the idea, what was he going to do? Tell everyone to pack it in and march to Harrenhal because he has a Great Council to attend?

The decision to capture Tyrion was also a bit rash.

Releasing Jaime was really stupid...

And yet again we see her not following her own advice when it comes to dealing with people you've not seen for a while.

Catelyn I, AGoT

Where was this piece of advice when she was dealing with Littlefinger?

I do like Catelyn and think she is one of the (morally) better people in the series, but she does make a few bad decisions which damage the fortunes of House Stark and she seems to have an odd inclination to not follow her own good advice...

She can't call Renly king DURING negotiations. Defeats the purpose of the negotiations. 

She had to capture Tyrion. Or the Lannisters would control the initiative. At least with Tyrion, they had a hostage. '

I think releasing was neutral. He didn't do anything once he was released... besides lose a hand. 

Catelyn is a terrible person. But her judgement is pretty good and, she's more right than she is wrong. 

[Craving Peaches]

15 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

I think releasing was neutral. He didn't do anything once he was released... besides lose a hand. 

But the Starks lost a hugely valuable bargaining chip which could have been exchanged for X or used to get better terms or anything...

15 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

She can't call Renly king DURING negotiations. Defeats the purpose of the negotiations. 

Yes, it is silly. The only time she uses Renly's proper style in front of him is (I think) when she's trying to get him to agree to her Great Council suggestion.

15 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

Catelyn is a terrible person.

What makes you say that? I know she wasn't nice to Jon, but I wouldn't call her a terrible person overall.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Tradecraft]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

But the Starks lost a hugely valuable bargaining chip which could have been exchanged for X or used to get better terms or anything...

Yes, it is silly. The only time she uses Renly's proper style is when she's trying to get him to agree to her Great Council suggestion.

What makes you say that? I know she wasn't nice to Jon, but I wouldn't call her a terrible person overall.

She's a pretty ruthless player in the game. Highly ambitious. 

 

[Tradecraft]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But the Starks lost a hugely valuable bargaining chip which could have been exchanged for X or used to get better terms or anything...

Yes, it is silly. The only time she uses Renly's proper style is when she's trying to get him to agree to her Great Council suggestion.

What makes you say that? I know she wasn't nice to Jon, but I wouldn't call her a terrible person overall.

What could they have gotten for Jaime? 

They essentially lost the war after the blackwater. 

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, Tradecraft said:

The things Catelyn Stark was right about are insane. 

The only thing she ever got wrong was Littlefinger. She should have known him better, but goddamn was she right about virtually everything else. 

She don't miss

-Catelyn immediately deduces the Lannister incest and attempt to push Bran out of the window in her early chapters in GoT. 

-Robb shouldn't have sent Theon Greyjoy away (cost him the North) like Cat said. 

-Robb should have kept his marriage pact with the Freys (cost him everything at the Red Wedding) like Cat wanted. 

-Releasing Jaime Lannister wasn't the worst call. He lost his hand in the Riverlands and so he's no longer a fighter (something she couldn't have foreseen?). He might have gotten Sansa Stark released if he had the chance in KL. I'd call this a wash/ neutral decision on cat's part. 

-Catelyn was right about the Westerlings. Jeyne's family were not to be trusted. 

-Catelyn was right to tell Robb to keep his direwolf close at all times and to not trust people that Greywind didn't like. 

-She sensed the red wedding as coming and slapped Edwyn Frey for his deception (wearing armor under his silks).  

-Robb sends Catelyn to Renly against her wishes. When she returns, Robb is married to Jeyne Westerling. She would have objected to the marriage if she was there, she couldn't afterwards. She thought as much when she met Jeyne. 

 

We're biased against female POV Chapters and, GRRM uses it against us 

 

Let's be honest. How many of us skimmed or skipped a female chapter because it "wasn't important". I have, sad to say. 

I sense that GRRM is using these natural or society taught biases against us. 

We're trained to think women are crazy, jealous, paranoid and weak (physically and emotionally). We don't like female figures in authority, it feels too much like they're trying to be our mothers or, it returns the feeling of being bossed aroubd by our mothers. It infantilizes us. 

Women aren't "supposed" to be in charge in our societies, and so we reject Catelyn and her ideas. People will accept paternal authority figures well enough, that "feels right" under our patriarchal society. Men are "supposed" to lead. Men are "strong" and "decisive"... Like Robb Stark. 

We see characters like Robb defying his mother on the matter of sending Theon Greyjoy away and we side with Robb (at least on the first read)... Despite Catelyn's advice and her insanely good track record. 

The worst thing people have against Catelyn is that she released Jaime and, I don't even find that too bad. Jaime isn't really a threat to the Tullies or Starks after he's released. What'd he do after he was released? Capture some doomed castles under siege in the Riverlands? 

 

Catelyn was totally unaware of the incest until Renly told her about Stannis's letter.  And she didn't think Bran's fall was suspicious until the catspaw.

Releasing Jaime was a bad call because she gave away a huge bargaining chip for essentially nothing.  What Jaime did after release is irrelevant.  His value is what they can get in exchange for his release.

Jeyne's mother and uncle were untrustworthy.  I think Jeyne herself and her brother were loyal to Robb.

Catelyn did suspect the Freys might be treacherous.  But she put too much faith in the bread and salt ritual, assuming that would keep them safe.  Still, the. Frey action was unprecedented.

Robb's wedding was at the Crag, so she couldn't have been there in any case.

Her arrest of Tyrion was a bad idea.  The crossroads inn is a gateway to lots of routes.  She could be coming or going to or from lots of places so that's not an excuse.

 

Catelyn's problem is that she is Murphy's Law in action.  If it can go wrong, it will for her.  If this was a role playing game, she would be rolling ones.

 

[Tradecraft]

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But the Starks lost a hugely valuable bargaining chip which could have been exchanged for X or used to get better terms or anything...

Yes, it is silly. The only time she uses Renly's proper style in front of him is (I think) when she's trying to get him to agree to her Great Council suggestion.

What makes you say that? I know she wasn't nice to Jon, but I wouldn't call her a terrible person overall.

Peaches, I just dropped a huge bombshell post about Sansa. 

[Ran]

15 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Releasing Jaime was a bad call because she gave away a huge bargaining chip for essentially nothing. 

Tywin had already given up Jaime for dead,  as Tyrion notes in AGoT:

Quote

Lord Tywin rose abruptly. "You are my son."

That was when he knew. You have given him up for lost, he thought. You bloody bastard, you think Jaime's good as dead, so I'm all you have left.

Jaime might have been useful as a bargaining chip... but since Robb didn't want to use him as one, and since the Blackwater turned the tide against the Starks, Jaime really wasn't worth anything at all by the point Catelyn released him.  Consider the fact that Tywin was negotiating the Frey-Bolton betrayal of Robb before he knew that Jaime had been freed.

Quote

Her arrest of Tyrion was a bad idea.  The crossroads inn is a gateway to lots of routes.  She could be coming or going to or from lots of places so that's not an excuse.

The stablehands who received the horse would have seen they came from the south. And, not expecting to be recognized, Catelyn did make a mistake: she admitted they had left King's Landing a fortnight earlier when asked by Marillion. So, yeah, Tyrion getting that information would be potentially deadly to Ned and Catelyn's daughters even without his being involved in the attempt on Bran's life.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Ran

[Alester Florent]

50 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

Kidnapping Tyrion was her least worst option. If she let him get away, he'd tell the Lannister she was creeping around the Riverlands. Jaime and Cersei would be alerted that the Starks know about Bran.

Cat's being in the Riverlands might be surprising but isn't necessarily suspicious. It's her home country; she has legitimate reasons to visit, and a connection between "Catelyn Stark is in the Riverlands" and "Catelyn Stark knows Jaime Lannister pushed her son out of a window in Winterfell" requires some heroic leaps of reasoning. Her lack of entourage is curious but she could conceivably have blagged it, as she would have had to if anyone else other than Tyrion had spotted her.

I can see why she did it, but it wasn't a good move.

[sifth]

25 minutes ago, Ran said:

Tywin had already given up Jaime for dead,  as Tyrion notes in AGoT:

Do we have any proof of this, outside of Tyrion's assumption that this is true? Tyrion makes quite a lot of mistakes, especially when he is Hand in the second book.

Also Catelyn doesn't trade Jamie, she literally breaks him out of prison. She was never his to trade to begin with. The Lannisters would have no obligation to honor any trade. Even Jamie's own promises were made at sword point.

Edited July 11, 2023 by sifth

[Ran]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

Do we have any proof of this, outside of Tyrion's assumption that this is true? Tyrion makes quite a lot of mistakes, especially when he is Hand in the second book.

The fact that Tywin made no effort to negotiate for Jaime's release, the fact that he planned a massive attack across the riverlands with the intention of grappling with and defeating Robb, and the fact that he was writing letters to negotiate the betrayal of Robb by the Freys and Boltons when he still believed Jaime was a prisoner at Riverrun suggest that Jaime's capture had exactly 0 impact on his prosecution of the war.

[sifth]

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

The fact that Tywin made no effort to negotiate for Jaime's release, the fact that he planned a massive attack across the riverlands with the intention of grappling with and defeating Robb, and the fact that he was writing letters to negotiate the betrayal of Robb by the Freys and Boltons when he still believed Jaime was a prisoner at Riverrun suggest that Jaime's capture had exactly 0 impact on his prosecution of the war.

If I recall, the original purpose of the RW was to capture Robb and Cat, to trade them for Jamie. The rest of what you're posting seems like conjecture at best. The only prisoner Tywin had to trade that was of Jamie's worth was Sansa and even he knew she wouldn't be enough. So how exactly is Tywin suppose to negotiate with Robb, when he has nothing to offer him except for a little girl, who's nowhere near as valuable as one of the greatest swordsmen in the country?

Edited July 11, 2023 by sifth

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, sifth said:

If I recall, the original purpose of the RW was to capture Robb and Cat, to trade them for Jamie.

Robb was going to be killed regardless. Tywin says that Walder Frey had "intended to keep her captive", which makes it sound like it was Frey who had plans for what to do with her. Presumably, the plan was to use the threat of harming her to force the Blackfish to give up Riverrun, if threatening Edmure alone did not work... and maybe he was thinking of forcing a marriage on her with some bachelor son of his, to try and draw up a connection to Winterfell? Who knows, but regardless, it was Frey's plan, not Tywin's, so I can't see a Jaime trade being intended.

As to what Tywin had, he had captured a host of Northern lords and heirs at the Green Fork, as we see in ACoK. He could have offered Sansa + all those others for Jaime. This notion that "all" he has was Robb's sister(s) is fallacious. 

[sifth]

22 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

As to what Tywin had, he had captured a host of Northern lords and heirs at the Green Fork, as we see in ACoK. He could have offered Sansa + all those others for Jaime. This notion that "all" he has was Robb's sister(s) is fallacious. 

Robb would have to be a complete idiot to trade Jamie for only Sansa and a few sons of his bannermen. The point stills stands, Tywin had no one of Jamie's worth to trade. He even says as much at the end of the first book, when he's angry over Cersei and Joffrey killing Ned. He knows he no longer has anyone to trade who's of Jamie's worth and therefore peacefully trading someone for Jamie is now impossible.

[Castellan]

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

We're trained to think women are crazy, jealous, paranoid and weak (physically and emotionally). We don't like female figures in authority, it feels too much like they're trying to be our mothers or, it returns the feeling of being bossed aroubd by our mothers. It infantilizes us. 

Women aren't "supposed" to be in charge in our societies, and so we reject Catelyn and her ideas. People will accept paternal authority figures well enough, that "feels right" under our patriarchal society. Men are "supposed" to lead. Men are "strong" and "decisive"... Like Robb Stark. 

We see characters like Robb defying his mother on the matter of sending Theon Greyjoy away and we side with Robb (at least on the first read)... Despite Catelyn's advice and her insanely good track record. 

The worst thing people have against Catelyn is that she released Jaime and, I don't even find that too bad. Jaime isn't really a threat to the Tullies or Starks after he's released. What'd he do after he was released? Capture some doomed castles under siege in the Riverlands? 

 

ahem I don't skip female chapters. I found Catelyn's chapters annoying only because I could not stand to see an adult woman having to defer to her 14 year old son and call him my Lord. I assumed Catelyn was one of the most popular characters & Michele Fairly was a very popular actress according to a game we played in forum games (best actress/actor).

I also like Sansa's chapters, except the last.

Arya's chapters must be favourites because I thought GRRM was told by his publishers she should be in all the books. Perhaps that is not true. Anyway they certainly move along.

Gee maybe its because I am a woman.

I agree that some of the ways of thinking you describe are there. I actually think GRRM has them. But he has got Catelyn just right with human flaws and strengths.

[csuszka1948]

2 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

I think she made a number of bad calls.

Arresting Tyrion with insufficient evidence was a poor political play that led directly to retaliation against Ned, his injury and incapacitation, not to mention the further political consequences.

 

I completely disagree, this was a brilliant gamble with the knowledge Cat has possessed. Tyrion has recognized her and she reasonably believed that Tyrion would tell his siblings that Catelyn and Ned are 'onto them' (because she was heading north and tried to hide herself), and they would move against him. Thus, she decided to make the first move by taking Tyrion hostage - thus both getting protection for Ned and concealing where did she came from - and go to the Eyrie, where she could (hopefully) get additional corroborating evidence from Lysa.

 

The Lannisters could only reitaliate because Ned has just resigned from Handship, something Cat couldn't have foreseen. It only worked out well for them because Lysa was insane and Robert has died just before Tywin would have gotten his ass slapped for raiding the Riverlands.

BTW Why do we take for granted that all Riverlords would have joined the Tullys instead of the Throne if it came to war after Robert's death? The Riverlands were historically very divided, and it was only Tywin's invasion that united them against a common foe.

2 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Releasing Jaime, Robb's greatest bargaining chip, for a vague promise that he would try to get Sansa back, something he had no power to accomplish, and Arya too, something he had even less ability to do, was ridiculous. This led indirectly but predictably to the Karstark mutiny and a further weakening of Robb's position.

 

I agree that it was probably a mistake.

That said,it wasn't a vague promise, it was a promise made by Tyrion in front of the whole court. She wasn't entirely wrong to do that (Tyrion would have returned Sansa), but in her position I would view it as false hope, since Tyrion has just shown himself untrustworthy by sending false envoys.

Also, she released Jaime before the Battle of Blackwater, when the Lannisters were in a clearly losing position and if KL got taken, the value of Jaime as a hostage would have greatly decreased. She couldn't have foreseen the Tyrell alliance and that Tywin will somehow get to KL before Jaime and become Hand. 

Finally, after the deaths of Rickon and Bran, Sansa was Robb's heir and in such a position a stronger hostage than Jaime. Tywin didn't let Jaime's capture influence his actions, he still gladly burned the Riverlands and started to coordinate the RW with Roose and the Freys at the end of ACOK. 

Even Robb has acknowledged that he should have traded Jaime for the girls. 

 

2 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Robb's initial instinct was to appoint the Greatjon to command his infantry. Cat talks him out of it and he appoints Roose Bolton instead. Whether Roose commanded any better at the Green Fork than GJ would have is debatable. What is less debatable is that having Robb's largest field army under the command of a dubiously loyal bannerman rather than his most stalwart supporter was a long-term disaster. Had GJ been in charge of that army instead of Roose, the betrayal at Duskendale and probably the Red Wedding itself would have been off the table, and Jaime would likely have been returned, two-handed, to Robb's custody.

 

Yes, but this is really the benefit of hindsight and I feel it's unfair to blame Cat here. Roose was genuinely a better commander for what Robb wanted him to do, only came back to command because Edmure let him back and could only think about betrayal due to the unexpected fall of Winterfell.