Sandy Clegg Posted July 27, 2023 Share Posted July 27, 2023 (edited) On 7/27/2023 at 12:05 AM, Evolett said: From Mel, we know burning releases the soul from the sacrificed and from the undead. Spiritual fire also casts a skinchanger out of the animal he's inhabiting. The wolf is strongly associated with skinchanging or the migration of souls, so my guess it that these shadow figures hint at a soul-transfer or soul-binding scenario. The above quote from @Evolett originated in the ‘3 heads in the dragon’ thread. I think there's so much narrative potential in these 'inner worlds' being inhabited by one, or more than one, consciousness. Apparently it's a theme of George's other books, so ... maybe we have good reason to expect things like this. Anyway, I’m starting a new post to reply as I think there is a connection to the the other thread I've been involved in lately - is Quentyn alive? But Evolett’s post really sparked some ideas inside me that have been percolating for a while, and this is my best effort at trying to put them into words. The Quentyn Conundrum I’ve been going back and forth on the idea of his 'death by fire' and whether it was real or fake, and in the end I’ve concluded that - from one perspective it least - it doesn’t really matter. Be he dead or be he alive, the imagery of Quentyn’s death remains unchanged, so that’s what I’ll focus on. What are the options? Quentyn is stone dead, and has gone to froggy heaven. We’ve seen some robust defences of this, which is fair enough. The realism of the world does fall apart for some, if there are too many fake-out deaths. It can be assumed that 99.9% of readers are in this corner. Quentyn is not dead … and you can take your pick of several theories as to how this happened and also to his current whereabouts, up to and including riding a dragon around Slaver’s Bay. @Gilbert Green did a pretty good job of representing this corner, which has been growing ever so slightly, but probably doesn’t have enough people to make up a volleyball team. Yet. Quentyn is dead BUT …that four-letter word magic comes into play - i.e. the absorption of his soul into a dragon. This corner is largely deserted, and those of us brave (or insane) enough to venture within have only the rustle of tinfoil tumbleweeds to keep us company. Ooh, there goes one now … Quentyn is Benjen (who is secretly Daario). A nice padded corner over on the far side of the room has been provided for these unfortunates, who are currently milling around in a puddle of their own drool. Someone please throw them a Jojenpaste cookie, the poor things look half-starved. So what gives with the imagery? The idea of ‘souls entering dragons’ is speculative but not exactly without its supporters (links not provided because I haven’t eaten in 6 hours). And I believe the text around Quentyn, in particular his death, may help to provide clues which support this phenomenon. In particular, we’re looking for things which lead us to an image of transformation, or absorption, involving fire. Just the image. We can worry about ‘story reality’ later. Because it doesn’t matter whether we view any Quentyn transformation literally (somehow being 'inside' Rhaegal) or symbolically (in which case Quentyn is just dead, but George is using his demise to foreshadow future ‘dragon bonds'). In fact, this imagery kind of works even if he’s alive. It’s the symbolism in the moment that is important, not how the subsequent story unfolds. However we view the fantasy elements versus the realism, we should be able to draw similar conclusions, which I’ll get to soon. I will add, however, that a symbolic reading is going to please those who would prefer Quentyn to stay dead and roasted. This is our relevant quote: Quote Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal. When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning. Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream. - ADWD, The Dragontamer Regardless of how we theorise about this, the POV image of a man being burned to death - in the vicinity of a dragon - is unambiguously being planted in our brain when we read this. And that image is really all I’m concerned with here. On that note, let’s turn to a feature of George’s writing that recurs throughout ASOIAF. Chapter Overlap This is where the beginning of one chapter offers a (usually) thematic link with the ending of the previous one. Sometimes it’s on-the-nose, and offers a cute narrative segue, e.g. Quote "Fine words." Tyrion was unimpressed. "Words are wind. Who is this bloody savior?" "A dragon." The cheesemonger saw the look on his face at that, and laughed. "A dragon with three heads.” - ADWD, end of Tyrion I …... DAENERYS She could hear the dead man coming up the steps. - ADWD, start of Daenerys I Yeah, Illyrio. Who is this bloody savi- …. oh right, it’s DAENERYS. We don’t even need to read past the chapter heading. Or, George does so thematically. Such as here: Quote I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I. - ADWD, end of Daenerys II ….... The rat squealed as he bit into it, squirming wildly in his hands, frantic to escape. The belly was the softest part. He tore at the sweet meat, the warm blood running over his lips. - ADWD, start of Reek I And sometimes it relies on wordplay, as in this segue on midwifes and birth: Quote Tyrion grinned. Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of kings. - ADWD, end of Tyrion I …... The Merry Midwife stole into White Harbor on the evening tide, her patched sail rippling with every gust of wind. - ADWD, start of Davos II Ok, you get the picture. GRRM doesn’t always do it, but it’s a favourite technique of his once you start to look out for it. It’s one of the things that elevates his writing, in my opinion, and probably a skill that he honed during his days as a television writer. So, that ending of The Dragontamer again: When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning. Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream. This is followed by the opening of Jon XIII, and an audience with a queen: Quote “Let them die," said Queen Selyse. "Let them die". It’s one of those nice stylistic moments from GRRM where the chapter themes kind of ‘bleed together’. Yes, let them die (Quentyn and, presumably, his other would-be dragon-stealers). A lingering echo from the Quentyn POV that brings a wry grimace to our faces. Trademark twisted GRRM fun. But it also makes me take notice, especially on a re-read. I usually rely on Chambers Dictionary when analysing vocabulary in ASOIAF, as it contains all those great English “dialectal, archaic, unconventional and eccentric words” (Wikipedia). It really gives you the full picture of the language, especially those older, more obscure terms that a historical fantasy writer might want to sneak past his readers, when laying obscure clues. Not a free app, but worth every penny (they should be sponsoring me at this point). “Let them die," said Queen Selyse. It’s such a short, powerful phrase … the only word offering any avenue for research is ‘die’. So here’s the Chambers entry - skip down to the seventh definition in the list. die /dī/ intransitive verb (or transitive verb with object death) (dyˈing; died /dīd/) To lose life To perish To wither (of an engine) to stop working To languish, suffer, long, or be very eager (for), esp in be dying for (informal) To be overcome by the effects (of) To merge. See also dying Let them die … let them merge? This does bring us closer to the ‘dragon soul-binding’ theme. I might be tempted to say this is just coincidence but the phrase is then repeated in Jon’s chapter, where it reinforces the fiery rebirth theme: Quote "We have no food for them, and they are too young to help the king my husband in his wars. Better that they be reborn into the light." That was just a softer way of saying let them die. It’s a phrase that echoes throughout the chapter, in fact, and occurs a number of times after this again, notably by Jon’s would-be assassins when they discuss the wildlings at Hardhome. So this phrase bears analysis, if we just go by frequency alone. Where to go from here? Well, if any quote from the books should be your mantra, it’s the very first line from AGOT: "We should start back". So start back we shall. We’re going on a … FROG HUNT Of course, GRRM is going to make us work for it. Can we use chapter overlap to find any other symbolic connections just before, and just after, Quentyn’s other chapters in ADWD? Let’s do just that. And will any of these overlaps bring to mind the image of Quentyn - his soul/consciousness - burning then entering a dragon? End of Tyrion II -> start of The Merchant’s Man (Quentyn I) Quote The dwarf rolled over, pressing half a nose deep into the silken pillows. Sleep opened beneath him like a well, and he threw himself into it with a will and let the darkness eat him up. …. Adventure stank. She boasted sixty oars, a single sail, and a long lean hull that promised speed. Small, but she might serve, Quentyn thought when he saw her, but that was before he went aboard and got a good whiff of her. Pigs, was his first thought, but after a second sniff he changed his mind. Pigs had a cleaner smell. This stink was piss and rotting meat and nightsoil, this was the reek of corpse flesh and weeping sores and wounds gone bad ... Well … where there’s a will, there’s a consciousness. And on ‘entering’ that darkness? Adventure. Which stinks. I suppose being trapped in a dragon is unlikely to be a bed of sweet-smelling roses. I think we’re off to an OK start, but honestly GRRM hasn’t given us much. End of The Merchant’s Man -> start of Jon II Quote And if Daenerys is dead before we reach her?" Quentyn said. "We must have a ship. Even if it is Adventure." Gerris laughed. "You must be more desperate for Daenerys than I knew if you'd endure that stench for months on end. After three days, I'd be begging them to murder me. No, my prince, I pray you, not Adventure." "Do you have a better way?" Quentyn asked him. …... Jon Snow read the letter over until the words began to blur and run together. I cannot sign this. I will not sign this. He almost burned the parchment then and there. A better way than murder. Than death … Well, the Jon chapter doesn’t offer much of a solution to this beyond allusions to blurring (merging) and burning. Although Edd does then come in and say: Quote “My old septon used to say that books are dead men talking”. Letters/books/dead men and burning. Well if a dead man can talk then he's not totally dead, I suppose. Not much of a ‘better way’ though. I’m not sure we can say this is very strong. But the Gerris line: “after three days I’d be begging them to murder me” does clearly foreshadow Quentyn’s fate as he eventually takes three days to ‘die’. End of The Lost Lord (JonCon I) -> start of The Windblown (Quentyn II) Quote The nail on his middle finger had turned as black as jet, he saw, and the grey had crept up almost to the first knuckle. The tip of his ring finger had begun to darken too, and when he touched it with the point of his dagger, he felt nothing. Death, he knew, but slow. I still have time. A year. Two years. Five. Some stone men live for ten. Time enough to cross the sea, to see Griffin's Roost again. To end the Usurper's line for good and all, and put Rhaegar's son upon the Iron Throne. …... The word passed through the camp like a hot wind. She is coming. I want to come back to Jon Connington’s passage soon. For now, we can put a bookmark in it. But the start of The Windblown seems to develop the previous Jon chapter’s first lines in an interesting way. Words blurring -> burning the parchment -> words like a hot wind -> books(which contain words) = dead men talking. A metaphor is taking shape before our eyes. Will it develop further? End of The Windblown -> start of The Wayward Bride (Asha I) Quote Whispering has just gotten a deal more dangerous. The big man slapped him hard across the back. "So. This is sweet, Frog. A dragon hunt.” …... Asha Greyjoy was seated in Galbart Glover's longhall drinking Galbart Glover's wine when Galbart Glover's maester brought the letter to her. "My lady." The maester's voice was anxious, as it always was when he spoke to her. "A bird from Barrowton." He thrust the parchment at her as if he could not wait to be rid of it. It was tightly rolled and sealed with a button of hard pink wax. Barrowton. Asha tried to recall who ruled in Barrowton. Some northern lord, no friend of mine. And that seal … the Boltons of the Dreadfort went into battle beneath pink banners spattered with little drops of blood. It only stood to reason that they would use pink sealing wax as well. This is poison that I hold, she thought. I ought to burn it. Instead she cracked the seal. A scrap of leather fluttered down into her lap. When she read the dry brown words, her black mood grew blacker still. Dark wings, dark words. There’s a lot to unpack here. Sweetness is usually a sign of death in these books. The last line from the big man could also suggest that the following chapter might open with some clues for those hunting (within the text) for dragons. Instead, what we get is more of the imagery that has been building in our Quentyn overlaps. As Asha takes up the narrative baton, the letter/words motif recurs, as does the burning (she “ought to burn it”). This letter brings us closer to a clearer metaphor - it is sealed in ‘pink wax’ - the Bolton trademark here evoking human skin .. … a letter (‘books are dead men’s words’) symbolically sealed by skin. It was sent from Barrowton. Barrows … containers of the dead. A potential burnt offering is “poisoned” - another Martell (and some species of frog) motif. Asha finds “dry brown words.” - like dried mud - which is another ‘burned Quentyn’ motif. Quote She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud. - ADWD, The Discarded Knight Words are now hot wind, and the colour of mud. The scrap of leather is doubtless actual human skin - without its owner. A cast-off remnant. So there we got a veritable stew of ‘skinless dead man’ -> Quentyn -> burning imagery. The Discarded Knight (Barristan I) -> The Spurned Suitor (Quentyn III) This overlap is a little different, as Quentyn features in both. It’s more of a traditional narrative transition in that sense. Instead of building imagery, George focuses on building the sense of general foreboding. Quote "What name do you think they will give me, should I return to Dorne without Daenerys?" Prince Quentyn asked. "Quentyn the Cautious? Quentyn the Craven? Quentyn the Quail?" The Prince Who Came Too Late, the old knight thought … but if a knight of the Kingsguard learns nothing else, he learns to guard his tongue. "Quentyn the Wise," he suggested. And hoped that it was true. …... The hour of ghosts was almost upon them when Ser Gerris Drinkwater returned to the pyramid to report that he had found Beans, Books, and Old Bill Bone in one of Meereen's less savory cellars, drinking yellow wine and watching naked slaves kill one another with bare hands and filed teeth. I want to point out a potential joke here, which hinges on the idea of the list of potential Quentyn names. It’s screaming (at me anyway) to add one more example … using a real-world Quentin. Even if it is probably a little obscure to those outside the UK. Anyway, there is one very famous Quentin from these isles that we could add to such a list (it’s an uncommon name, so you Brits out there may be ahead of me on the joke here). That name is the late Quentin Crisp, 60s gay icon and author of ‘The Naked Civil Servant’. Apart from Tarantino and Blake, I know of no other Quentins, so … maybe not such a stretch to use it as a clue? Google lists him third in my 'Quentin search’, so it’s not utterly out of reach to the curious-minded. Quentin the Quail .. the Cautious .. the Craven .. the Crisp (as in ‘burnt to a …’) The alliteration works. I don’t know if this was in GRRM’s mind, but it tickles me to think that it did. Using humour to give clues is one of his less-explored tactics, but … it’s there, for sure. Well, I’m calling it a bonus clue but feel free to disregard it on the basis of silliness if you wish. Crispy Quentin. Yum. The ‘hour of ghosts’ phrase we can file under ‘general foreshadowing’ I think. The Spurned Knight -> The Griffin Reborn Quote The Tattered Prince only leaned back on his stool and said, "Double does not pay for dragons, princeling. Even a frog should know that much. Dragons come dear. And men who pay in promises should have at least the sense to promise more." "If you want me to triple—" "What I want," said the Tattered Prince, "is Pentos.” … He sent the archers in first. Black Balaq commanded one thousand bows. In his youth, Jon Connington had shared the disdain most knights had for bowmen, but he had grown wiser in exile. Dragons come dear, and double does not pay for dragons. Quentyn is about to offer triple, and is then cut off. Triple - a ‘three heads’ reference? This is a tricky one. I think there may be some allusion here to ‘promise’ as euphemism for ‘sacrifice’. It’s a conversation between two Princes, after all - one who has escaped sacrifice, and one may be about to become a (symbolic) one. A quick reminder of Pentos’ unique approach to royalty: Quote “ … if there is famine or if a war is lost, the prince becomes not a ruler but a sacrifice; his throat is slit so that the gods might be appeased.” - TWOIAF Our other famous Prince motif in ASOIAF is indeed ‘the Prince who was Promised’. So perhaps we are being drawn to this with our prince-heavy passage. In any case, Quentyn and Tatters are inextricably linked by this conversation. I prefer to suggest a symbolic link - Tatters has escaped his fate (death) in Pentos and so ‘owes’ the gods a Prince’s death. Quentyn is about to symbolically take on that debt. The Griffin Reborn opening …. has nothing to do with Quentyn. Whoops! There goes the theory. Well, actually we do have the fact that Quentyn chooses a “lion” mask for his Brazen Beast disguise. And a griffin is a lion with wings, so - if we were looking real hard for symbolism then I guess we could say a reborn Quentyn-as-dragon would very much be a reborn griffin. Of sorts. Also, in the very next chapter (The Sacrifice - Asha III) we get this at the start: Quote On the village green, the queen's men built their pyre. Or should it be the village white? ‘The sacrifice’ is destined for a fiery end … a pyre .. but will it be the green or the white? So, George is starting the chapter with heavy imagery of Rhaegal (green) v Viserion (white). We can actually see why he may have not wanted it to come straight after Quentyn’s chapter as it would have just been too on-the-nose, even for the subtle technique of chapter overlaps. Well, there’s my justification anyway. We’re closing in on The Dragontamer. Barristan’s preceding chapter simply ends with him learning that the dragons have been freed. We no longer require any thematic connection, as the story has finally caught up to the imagery. It’s game day. But then, Rashomon style, the narrative seems to turn back time to recount the events leading up to the dragon’s escape - this time from Quentyn’s POV. And here I want to return to that previous JonCon chapter. Quote The tip of his ring finger had begun to darken too, and when he touched it with the point of his dagger, he felt nothing. Death, he knew, but slow. I still have time. A year. Two years. Five. Some stone men live for ten. Time enough to cross the sea, to see Griffin's Roost again. Let’s focus on the comparison between JonCon’s testing his finger and Quentyn holding his palm over the flame: Quote Wine will help me sleep, he told himself, but he knew that was a lie. He stared at the candle for a long time, then put down his cup and held his palm above the flame. It took every bit of will he had to lower it until the fire touched his flesh, and when it did he snatched his hand back with a cry of pain. "Quentyn, are you mad?” Where Jon Connington feels nothing, Quentyn seemingly feels pain. But what compels Quentyn to take the test? We assume that he is steeling himself for the mission to come. Proving that he has dragon blood, perhaps. But what if he is conducting a different kind of test? What if this chapter hasn’t gone back in time, Rashomon-style, but has in fact moved on in regular chronological order, and is taking place in flashback ... as Quentyn lies on his death bed. What if the opening of the chapter takes place within Quentyn’s mind’s eye, seeking to cope with the horror he has endured in the dragon’s lair? Holding one’s hand over a flame seems like a good way to test for being in a dream, or in reality .. or whether one has gone ‘mad’ (as Gerris mentions). Also - Gerris seems to appear somewhat out of nowhere, which could be reminiscent of ‘dream logic’. He replies in his internal voice, too. Quote "Quentyn, are you mad?" No, just scared. I do not want to burn. "Gerris?" "I heard you moving about.” Then Quentyn unceremoniously blows out his candle and leaves Gerris Drinkwater in darkness. Quote "I'll hear no more of this. You have my leave to go. Find a ship and run home, Gerris." The prince rose, blew the candle out, and crept back to his bed and its sweat-soaked linen sheets. A prince’s prerogative, perhaps. But still rude, and a little out of character for Quentyn. Well, I won’t push this aspect of the chapter too much, as I admit it requires huge leaps of storytelling mechanics to make sense. But Quentyn’s fears of burning work well as existential fear as much as fear of fire. We only truly die when our soul burns away. And someone in their death throes after being burnt might well summon to their imagination a figure who represents … a drink of water. As far as the opening goes, which we haven’t looked at yet, here it is: Quote The night crept past on slow black feet. The hour of the bat gave way to the hour of the eel, the hour of the eel to the hour of ghosts. The prince lay abed, staring at his ceiling, dreaming without sleeping, remembering, imagining, twisting beneath his linen coverlet, his mind feverish with thoughts of fire and blood. We move from bat, to eel, to ghost. Let’s view this through a more dragon-y lens. Winged form (bat), to snaky form (eel), to ghost. A dragon in flight. Then - having landed - at rest (wings tucked away, it becomes eel-like) and then to. sleep? (At which point the ‘ghost’ within the dragon awakens). I guess I got carried away with the eery symbolism there, but I don’t hate it as a valid reading. And of course the prince is “dreaming, remembering, imagining”. Post-burn or pre-burn, that is the question. It wouldn’t be the first time GRRM has experimented with portraying a fever dream in ASOIAF. I'm prepared to be wrong about this aspect, but I've come this far so I'm adding everything from my notes. Anyway. The rest of the chapter, from the moment the three ‘break their fast’, is clearly the regular version of the events leading up to Quentyn’s death, which breaks the illusion. Whether it is happening live, or in his memory as flashback, makes little difference. Although ... we might wonder whether the “scream" in his final sentence is still part of a flashback, or Quentyn’s death rattle back in real time, which Missandei mistakes for a grin. Conclusion I feel a bit like Indy in Raiders of the Last Ark here, because ultimately .... none of this need have any effect on the story to come. We might not get confirmation of an actual in-story magical transformation of Quentyn. We don’t need to see Quentyn’s soul trapped in a dragon. A purely ‘inner-world’ interpretation can easily account for the chapter’s opening dream-like state (if that’s what it is). Or I could be completely wrong about that and he managed to escape death somehow. Most of the symbolism we have gleaned from Prince Quentyn’s story can just as easily be read as foreshadowing for another prince ... that ‘Prince Who Was Promised’ we keep hearing about, perhaps. And even if he was somewhere within Rhaegal, he might have been utterly absorbed and lost to the story. Or partially absorbed. No further POV chapters from Quentyn have to appear. He’s been burned, and took three days dying, and the imagery is showing us what happens when the bonding process fails to be completed successful. Likewise, if Rhaegal happens to take on some ‘Quentyn-like’ characteristics (burning ships is very Dornish, for example) then GRRM is under no compulsion to explain this. It can just stay a mystery. But the imagery does lead us to some ideas of what might happen during a dragon-binding ‘sacrifice’ by fire. A precursor to an actual soul-bond, perhaps, which would feature a more significant character. A steady building of imagery that George can point to and say ‘well, I kind of showed you some stuff - I didn't pull it out of my ass halfway through TWOW’. Easing us into the concept. Because he wasn’t ready to unleash that level of mysticism on us in ADWD - not just yet. Final words. Through the accumulation of imagery and wordplay, the symbolism of Quentyn’s story is at the very least a blueprint for what may happen in a ‘dragon soul-binding’ process, particularly the idea of exploring 'inner narratives' of consciousness. Of course, George can do his gardening thing and take it any way he chooses. Quentyn’s 'symbolic work' is done now, so George is free to explore his options. Keep the realism going for a while longer and have him stay dead, or ramp up the fantasy and turn the imagery into reality. For now, though, Frog is in limbo. Edited August 8, 2023 by Sandy Clegg Craving Peaches, Seams, LongRider and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolett Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said: The idea of ‘souls entering dragons’ is speculative but not exactly without its supporters (links not provided because I haven’t eaten in 6 hours). And I believe the text around Quentyn, in particular his death, may help to provide clues which support this phenomenon. In particular, we’re looking for things which lead us to an image of transformation, or absorption, involving fire. Just the image. We can worry about ‘story reality’ later. To be honest, though I've often asked myself why GRRM would name a chapter in which a failed dragontamer dies "The Dragontamer," it never occurred to me that "dragontamer" could be a clue to the dragontamer inside - the human soul that presumably "softens up" the beast for riding and binding to the internal spirit's kin. I wasn't half-way through the OP when I had a Geistesblitz which I'm sure has substance. I believe George has shown us Quentyn transformed in a clever, funny, not so subtle but spendid way - really for all the world to see. More on that later in this the next post. 15 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said: On that note, let’s turn to a feature of George’s writing that recurs throughout ASOIAF. Chapter Overlap This is something I've also noticed, not so much when reading the books, more so when I listen to the audiobooks. I've found listening to the books tends to reveal aspects and nuances that remain hidden to me in the text and I often ask myself how I could have missed this and that after reading a chapter so many times over. The continuous verbal narration really lends itself to picking up these chapter overlaps, for me at least. As such, I can relate to and find meaning in many of the examples you site here, in turn inspiring further thought on some of what you've highlighted. At the very least, there's a fair amount of foreshadowing of his death all the way from Adventure "stinks" to the hour of the ghost. First off, a bit of wordplay: I love this: 15 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said: To merge. See also dying Let them die … let them merge? This does bring us closer to the ‘dragon soul-binding’ theme. It opens up possibilities elsewhere as well. I'm thinking here of the dying (colouring) motif that's been quite a puzzle to me. Then there is this which I can get on board with. However, leaving us to fill in the blank here with "Crisp" in relation to being burnt by a dragon may be a direct link to Barristan's answer .. 15 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said: Quentin the Quail .. the Cautious .. the Craven .. the Crisp (as in ‘burnt to a …’) .. "Quentyn the Wise," he suggested. And hoped that it was true. What was that about "wise old dragons living to be a 1000 years?" In theory, Quentyn would enjoy a much longer life within a dragon, provided it survives a war. He is also the kind of person that might have developed into a wise leader of men. 15 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said: The Spurned Knight -> The Griffin Reborn Quote The Tattered Prince only leaned back on his stool and said, "Double does not pay for dragons, princeling. Even a frog should know that much. Dragons come dear. And men who pay in promises should have at least the sense to promise more." "If you want me to triple—" "What I want," said the Tattered Prince, "is Pentos.” … He sent the archers in first. Black Balaq commanded one thousand bows. In his youth, Jon Connington had shared the disdain most knights had for bowmen, but he had grown wiser in exile. Dragons come dear, and double does not pay for dragons. Quentyn is about to offer triple, and is then cut off. Triple - a ‘three heads’ reference? My first association here was "double > tripple > five times (pentos)." But perhaps the real meaning comes through when we focus on Pentos. So in relation to this theory, Pentos becomes "pent-up." Quentyn pays the debt owed by the Tattered Prince by agreeing to be pent up (in a dragon). Poor Quentyn does have a history of being used to pay a blood debt incurred by someone else! On a side note, I personally think the "promised prince" is an intended sacrifice, someone of a lineage long extinct but necessary to pay a blood debt owed another party. I think the background of the Tattered Prince tells part of this story, of a person destined to be sacrificed but who shirked this responsibility in the distant past. The idea of the promised prince as an absconded sacrifice also ties into the motif of the exile as well as that of the elusive "Stranger" who is from far places. The debt however is still owed. But that's another topic. Onto the next line in the Griffin Reborn: Adding to the notion of rebirth here are the archers: He sent the archers in first. Arch => Char. The first stage in the rebirth process is the charring (burning) and we even have JonCon growing wiser in exile. Well, Quentyn might well grow wise while his soul is exiled in the dragon. We can take this further - like the dragon eggs that turned to stone, JonCon, having contracted greyscale is going that same route. To continue with the wordplay regarding Frog and his two main companions: Frog > Arch > Drink Frog > Char > Kindr(ed) Theon, the Smile, cautious cravens, Lommy Greenhands, Hotpie and Ghosts I'm seeing so many parallels and connections here that putting them down is not that easy a task so bear with me. As I mentioned in the previous thread, there are a number of similarities between Theon and Quentyn. Both are princes who pay for a relative's transgressions by being sent off as hostages to another family. Both are educated by the foster families, treated well and regard at least one foster brother as a real brother and friend. Both are fostered in tree-associated families, Quentyn with the Yronwoods and Theon with the Starks (weirwoods). Perhaps also relevant, in the very first chapter, Theon hands ice to Ned and Gared is executed on an ironwood block. On another note, we know weirwoods are associated with greenseers (and greenseer spirits). Could it be the ironwoods are linked to spirits destined to be dragon-spirits? Kind of makes sense especially in view of the iron that is also said to be what dragon bones are primarily composed of. Theon declares himself Prince of Winterfell and later becomes a true Prince of the Iron Islands (and the North) when his father declares himself King. Theon is also turned into a shadow of his former self and becomes a "Ghost in Winterfell" able to hear and speak to the weirwood, to his foster-kin Bran. Quentyn's development is analagous to this, the difference being a union with the dragon-kin rather than the tree. The Smile is something Theon was noted for. Almost every character comments about this regarding Theon. He even names his unruly black stallion "Smiler." In death, Quentyn smiles (what's he so happy about? is a question people ask when thinking for the former Theon.) Quote The tiny Naathi scribe looked up at his approach. “Honored ser. The prince is beyond pain now. His Dornish gods have taken him home. See? He smiles.” In the puns and wordplay thread, I proposed "smile" might be an anagram of "millers." Why is this important? Because it leads us to "ghosts." Theon had the miller's sons killed in place of Bran and Rickon and these ghosts haunt him: Quote Theon gazed at them silently while the wind tugged on his cloak with small ghostly hands. The miller’s boys had been of an age with Bran and Rickon, alike in size and coloring ... The miller's vocation is to grind grain into flour and flour has been used by the author to disguise or dress up Jon as a ghost in the Winterfell crypts. This ghostly association also applies to Ramsay whose mother was a miller's wife, noted by Theon himself: Quote He had his lord father’s eyes—small, close-set, queerly pale. Ghost grey, some men called the shade, but in truth his eyes were all but colorless, like two chips of dirty ice. The Smiler / smile is an allusion to ghosts and now I am thinking specifically to ghosts or souls released by burning = think Theon's black horse "Smiler" that burned to death at Winterfell. Hot Pie Having explained the miller - smiler - flour - ghost wordplay and symbolism, let's have a look at how Hotpie fits into this. Arya, Hotpie, Gendry and Lommy Greenhands (the dyer's apprentice) journey through the Riverlands together. Hotpie is a baker and expert at handling flour which he kneads just right to bake excellent bread. Bread, of course must be baked in a heated oven so Hotpie could also be hinting at hot pyre, together giving Hotpie symbolism pertaining to burning the dead / living and the handling of released souls (the flour). So it's interesting that he is in the company of Lommy Greenhands who has green hands because he is a dyer's apprentice - if the dying and merging wordplay is a thing. I think it is. Lommy Greenhands reminds us of Garth Greenhand (also said in some tales to be green) and though never mentioned to be a greenseer and therefore one who can transfer his spirits into a tree, this is likely on account of the tales of the "green men" guarding the Isle of Faces). We also have the "ghost" present in this foursome - Arya who becomes a Ghost in Harrenhal, a place burned by dragonfire by Aegon the Conqueror! Bringing us back to the burnt Quentyn whose name which features the Q is reminiscent of Ironborn names. The one difference I see here is Gendry. On the one hand I think as a smith, he represents the forging process but in contrast to Quentyn's companion Gerris Drinkwater, Gendry is "dry." Lommy Greenhands also seems a loose parallel to Quentyn when we consider this:Quentin the Quail .. the Cautious .. the Craven. Lommy, we recall was never bold. He was all for yielding. ------ I've tried to be as concise as possible but this post is getting rather long. More in the next post, Part II. Edited July 28, 2023 by Evolett Sandy Clegg and LongRider 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolett Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 (edited) Part II How do we know for sure which of the two dragons end up as a home for Quentyn? In general Rhaegal seems to be the dragon in need of taming. Rhaegal fired Quentyn and as Barristan notes: Quote He wondered where Rhaegal was. Thus far the green dragon had shown himself to be more dangerous than the white. Rhaegal is also named after Rhaegar and thus in keeping with the princely motif - a prince for the dragon named after a prince. Barristan also raises the question as to whether the dragons will know one side from another when the war gets underway: Quote So I ask you … if the peace should fail and this battle should be joined, will the dragons come? Will they join the fight?” They will come, Ser Barristan might have said. The noise will bring them, the shouts and screams, the scent of blood. That will draw them to the battlefield, just as the roar from Daznak’s Pit drew Drogon to the scarlet sands. But when they come, will they know one side from the other? From a logical point of view, it makes sense for at least one of the two dragons to "know" which side to defend and in the absence of Drogon, Rhaegal inhabited by Quentyn would surely be in the know. There is also this as a possible clue: 17 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said: Also, in the very next chapter (The Sacrifice - Asha III) we get this at the start: Quote On the village green, the queen's men built their pyre. Or should it be the village white? ‘The sacrifice’ is destined for a fiery end … a pyre .. but will it be the green or the white? So, George is starting the chapter with heavy imagery of Rhaegal (green) v Viserion (white). We can actually see why he may have not wanted it to come straight after Quentyn’s chapter as it would have just been too on-the-nose, even for the subtle technique of chapter overlaps. Well, there’s my justification anyway. Agreed. I would go for the green as in Rhaegal. There is the Lommy Greenhands dyer's apprentice merging allusion and then the bit I have saved for last which convinces me that Quentyn is now firmly installed in Rhaegal. This may be controversial but consider it: Quote The rain had drowned the worst of the fires, but wisps of smoke still rose from the smoldering ruin that had been the pyramid of Hazkar, and the great black pyramid of Yherizan where Rhaegal had made his lair hulked in the gloom like a fat woman bedecked with glowing orange jewels. This sentence is somewhat ambiguously written. The fat woman bedecked with glowing orange jewels hulking in the gloom could be referring to Rhaegal or to the pyramid of Yherizan. The association I made on my first couple of reads was always Rhaegal. In either case, it's an odd description conjuring up a vision in one's mind's eye of a green dragon with bronze markings that glow orange in the rising sun of the dawn. Next, Barristan's thoughts go to the dragons, none of which are in sight and to the dawn - the sun is about to rise, colouring the horizon red: Quote He saw no sign of dragons, but he had not expected to. The dragons did not like the rain. A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear. It reminded Selmy of the first blood welling from a wound. So - dragons not in sight but the sun (sigil of House Martell) is soon to appear (dawn / Dorne). The sun imagery is bloody, perhaps a nod at the Martell spear that pierces the red Rhoynish sun in the sigil. But back to the fat woman bedecked in glowing orange jewels. What could this allude to? How about a green frog? Quentyn is "Frog" and we have that quote from Barristan about Dorne sending Daenerys "mud," both Frog and mud potentially linking Quentyn to the crannogmen. In an important Bran chapter, aSoS, Bran I, we learn more about skinchanging and about Meera catching frogs for dinner: Quote “Who’s hungry?” she asked, holding up her catch: two small silvery trout and six fat green frogs. “I am,” said Bran. But not for frogs. Back at Winterfell before all the bad things had happened, the Walders used to say that eating frogs would turn your teeth green and make moss grow under your arms. Is it significant that eating fat green frogs turns certain parts of you green? A symbolic froggy soul turning Rhaegal green? And the frogs are caught by Meera using her famous net. Might this line up with Rhaegal being caught with the aid of a net in Meereen (Viserion was led into the pit by Daenerys): Quote Rhaegal had been harder. Perhaps he could hear his brother raging in the pit, despite the walls of brick and stone between them. In the end, they had to cover him with a net of heavy iron chain as he basked on her terrace, and he fought so fiercely that it had taken three days to carry him down the servants’ steps, twisting and snapping. Six men had been burned in the struggle. Rhaegal certainly was a handful compared to Viserion. In the aSoS Bran I chapter, prior to Meera arriving with the fat green frogs, Bran is woken out of skinchanging Summer. He's been away for too long and is lectured by Jojen on the dangers of staying too long in his wolf. He thinks of himself as a "Prince of the Green" and as the Bran the Broken, Prince of Winterfell. Check out the chapter for yourself. I'm thinking it's a pretty good counterfoil to Quentyn in Rhaegal. And now for some fun: a quick check on the net revealed there are indeed green tree frogs that look like they are bedecked with orange jewels in real life: https://kids.nationalgeographic.com/animals/amphibians/facts/red-eyed-tree-frog https://www.vecteezy.com/photo/1131538-beautiful-orange-thighed-green-treefrog-on-a-leaf Edited July 28, 2023 by Evolett LongRider 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aejohn the Conqueroo Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 Quentyn is Shiera Seastar Groo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Clegg Posted July 28, 2023 Author Share Posted July 28, 2023 2 hours ago, Evolett said: It opens up possibilities elsewhere as well. I'm thinking here of the dying (colouring) motif that's been quite a puzzle to me. a) the word 'die' is used a hell of a lot in the books, so I think George has to avoid using that 'merge' meaning liberally. I only think it was worth examining here as its overlap placement lent it some extra weight. Otherwise we have to assume dying is usually dying. Unless there's some signifying clue. b) It's obscure, so much so that you won't really find the definition in online dictionaries, I've noticed. Which ... I think works in GRRM's favour, right? He's grumbled about the fact that online theorists are figuring too much out. Using physical reference books is just the sort of thing he'd find useful to foil the web. I have the Chambers book and the app, which is fairly new I think, and they're really useful. 2 hours ago, Evolett said: Both are fostered in tree-associated families, Quentyn with the Yronwoods and Theon with the Starks (weirwoods) Quentyn and Theon are most certainly parallels of a sort. 2 hours ago, Evolett said: The Smile is something Theon was noted for. Almost every character comments about this regarding Theon. He even names his unruly black stallion "Smiler." In death, Quentyn smiles (what's he so happy about? is a question people ask when thinking for the former Theon.) Well, a smile = a clue, especially with Theon. I've had that thought for over a year now. But to be honest, that was more of a 'first book' thing. I think GRRM has used it less and less since then. But yeah - Quentyn's 'smile' actually being a rictus scream is kind of a horrific image. I'm imagining him reliving, in his mind, the events leading up to his burning and having to experience it all over again. We all know George loves a bit of horror, but still ... I wish I'd spent a bit more time analysing the 'lucid death bed dream' idea, because while it's really creepy and I like it in theory - it needs a bit more evidence to back it up. He does spend an awful amount of time thinking on the regrets of his life, which is a very 'death bed' thing to do. 1 hour ago, Evolett said: where Rhaegal had made his lair hulked in the gloom like a fat woman bedecked with glowing orange jewels. George likes his imagery. And if Rhaegal stood up with his wings outstretched? Why he might even resemble an orange tree ... 1 hour ago, Evolett said: s it significant that eating fat green frogs turns certain parts of you green? A symbolic froggy soul turning Rhaegal green? Rhaegal is already green & bronze in colour, which is kind of what most people's idea of a frog colouring might be. But I might now while away a few hours searching about frogs on https://asearchoficeandfire.com. And toads! there goes my evening ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolett Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Sandy Clegg said: Well, a smile = a clue, especially with Theon. I've had that thought for over a year now. But to be honest, that was more of a 'first book' thing. I think GRRM has used it less and less since then. But yeah - Quentyn's 'smile' actually being a rictus scream is kind of a horrific image I'm not inclined to think of Quentyn's dying smile as a scream, but then that's left to our own differing imaginations. The smile or smiler is a thing though. Having planted the seed much earlier, GRRM picks it up again in aDwD, first when Stannis tries to convince Jon to take up his offer to become Lord of Winterfell: Quote Which would you have as Lord of Winterfell, Snow? The smiler or the slayer?” Jon said, “Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa.” The choice is between Massey (the smiler) and Horpe (the slayer) both of whom he's considering as potential candidates to fill the position. Justin Massey shows interest in Asha, leading her to think he wants to marry her in order to claim her lands and rule through her. Well, one "smiler," Theon, has already failed where Winterfell is concerned. In the same book, we have Theon twice thinking about the events at Winterfell including his burning horse, Smiler: Quote The memory came back in a rush. Smiler’s screams had sounded almost human. His mane afire, he had reared up on his hind legs, blind with pain, lashing out with his hooves. And earlier in aCoK, as Ramsay's treachery became absolutely clear: Quote “Save me the Freys,” the Bastard was shouting as the flames roared upward, “and burn the rest. Burn it, burn it all.” The last thing Theon Greyjoy saw was Smiler, kicking free of the burning stables with his mane ablaze, screaming, rearing … Sometimes a smilie is just a smile but these personified smiles seem important to me, as does Quentyn's somewhat displaced death smile, especially since he burns as Quentyn does. 2 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said: a) the word 'die' is used a hell of a lot in the books, so I think George has to avoid using that 'merge' meaning liberally. I only think it was worth examining here as its overlap placement lent it some extra weight. Otherwise we have to assume dying is usually dying. Unless there's some signifying clue I'm not so much thinking of dying as in death, as I am of dying as in changing the colour of cloth (or beards or hair). The latter appears to be a motif unto itself, particularly in respect of Braavos and Tyrosh. Quote Tyrosh began as a military outpost of the Valyrian Freehold on a bleak stony isle to control shipping through the Stepstones. They soon discovered in the nearby waters a unique variety of sea snail whose secretions were used to create a dye popular with Valyrian nobles. Thousands of merchants developed Tyrosh into a major city within a generation. Tyroshi dyers learned to produce different colors of dyes by varying the diet of the snails. When Daario enters into Dany's service, his trident beard is dyed blue and he changes the colour at some point. "Dying" as in colouring is specific and as a metaphor for merging souls is interesting to me. I've tried to expand on this with the Lommy / Hotpie / Arya scenario above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 (edited) This is my preferred Quentyn theory. For me it all starts with the the tale of the Frog Prince. Quote Dany laughed. "They call him frog," she said, "and we have just learned why. In the Seven Kingdoms there are children's tales of frogs who turn into enchanted princes when kissed by their true love." Smiling at the Dornish knights, she switched back to the Common Tongue. "Tell me, Prince Quentyn, are you enchanted?" It's actually the first time that George explicitly cites one of the fairy tales that he uses as inspiration in the books. So it's obvious that he wants us to associate Quentyn with that tale. The problem is, Quentyn never gets that kiss from his true love, or does he? After all, as we find out, Dany wasn't really Quentyn's true desire: Quote Duty brought Quentyn here. Duty, honor, thirst for glory ... never love. Quentyn was here for dragons, not Daenerys." So with that in mind, let's set aside Dany as Quentyn's true desire. Instead, it's at least hinted that Quentyn's true desire/love was Dany's dragons. That's who he really set out to woo in Mereen. When he first encounters Rhaegal into the dragon pit, we're reminded that Quent is still a frog. Quote Green, the prince thought, his scales are green. "Rhaegal," he said. His voice caught in his throat, and what came out was a broken croak. Frog, he thought, I am turning into Frog again. "The food," he croaked, remembering. "Bring the food." So if Quentyn is a frog and if his true love is one of Dany's dragons, this is where Quentyn gets his kiss. Quote Gerris was calling out his name, over and over, and the big man was bellowing. "Behind you, behind you, behind you!" Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rheagal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rheagal. When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning. Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream. Quentyn's kiss is a kiss of fire, and that's when his transformation begins. If George was just interested in killing Quentyn off he would have ended Quentyn's life in the dragon pit. If he was interested in keeping Quentyn alive, he would have ended the burned victim they were passing off as Quentyn in the dragon pit. Instead, he does something interesting. He keeps Quentyn alive for three days, being tended by the scribe, Missendei, before Quentyn's death. I think it's an intentional parallel to Bran, who's third eye opened after he hovered between life and death on his bed. I think that's what happened to Quentyn. As he hovered between life and death, a psychic connection opened up between him and one of the dragons, allowing his soul/spirt/consciousness to enter into the dragon. And when his body finally succumbed to his burns, his second life began. The other thing to pay attention to is the imagery of the smithy that George gives us when Quentyn receives his kiss. Bellowing, furnace winds. George is forging a flaming sword. Edited July 28, 2023 by Frey family reunion Seams, LongRider and Evolett 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Clegg Posted July 28, 2023 Author Share Posted July 28, 2023 40 minutes ago, Evolett said: When Daario enters into Dany's service, his trident beard is dyed blue and he changes the colour at some point. "Dying" as in colouring is specific and as a metaphor for merging souls is interesting to me. I've tried to expand on this with the Lommy / Hotpie / Arya scenario above. It's so long since I read those ACOK Arya chapters. In a way they have some of the most dense imagery in the books - they give me a headache trying to grasp what might be going. Maybe there just isn't any symbolism going on there - but that just doesn't seem like George's m.o. More likely I just get on the wavelength. ACOK is a tough read, honestly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Clegg Posted July 28, 2023 Author Share Posted July 28, 2023 55 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: As he hovered between life and death, a psychic connection opened up between him and one of the dragons, allowing his soul/spirt/consciousness to enter into the dragon. And when his body finally succumbed to his burns, his second life began. This is certainly one way it could go. Like I say above, the imagery all fits the 'soul bonding'. I just wonder whether George will confirm this, or leave it a grey area. Personally I'm rooting for more POVs from 'altered state' characters. Taking three days for it to happen seems like a horrifying ordeal, too. I mean, just the idea of being able to speculate about this manner of POV development - it's just such a great avenue to go down and theorise. The inner world and how George might portray a consciousness undergoing these such tortuous processes. It's possible you're right - and the three-day process is happening. George would probably want to illustrate this in some way, but it's hard to portray these metaphysical things. If Quentyn is undergoing the dragon-bonding process, then my favourite take is that his mind is trying to fight it, and this is what we see in The Dragontamer. Quote "Quentyn, are you mad?" No, just scared. I do not want to burn. His mind has created an inner world he recognises to protect him somewhat. When he awakes, and puts his palm on the candle, we could read this several ways. Perhaps it's the 'dream test'. Or he's trying to see how resistant he is to flames. Another reading is that, as his soul is 'absorbed' by Rhaegal, he is becoming more and more drawn to fire. Becoming dragon-like. And Gerris is his mind's way of intervening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 3 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said: ACOK is a tough read, honestly. First half is great, but after page 438 or so... Alester Florent and csuszka1948 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted August 8, 2023 Share Posted August 8, 2023 Following the idea that Quentyn's last chapters is about him being absorbed by the dragon, could it be that the Dragontamer means Rhaegal (the dragon tamer) is taming Quentyn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted August 8, 2023 Share Posted August 8, 2023 Some potential wordplay clues strike me: wise = I sew. We know that the Ironborn do not sow. Septas teach people to sew. Arya has a Needle, a thorn is a needle, the German word for "thorn" is "Dorn," GRRM has set up a wordplay pair with north / thorn and "southron" as a portmanteau of south and north. When Barristan says he hopes Quentyn will be known as "wise," he may be saying that he hopes Quentyn will become part of the sewing (unifying) theme and will fulfill his destiny as a Dornishman. Dragontamer = dragonmater. Quentyn went to Dany with the hope of becoming her mate. As @Frey family reunion points out, he actually "kisses" one of Dany's dragons, not Dany. But there's interesting wordplay in English "mater" (one who mates) the Latin word for mother, "mater." We all know that Dany is the Mother of Dragons so become a dragon mater might mean that Quentyn unites with Dany after all. On 7/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, Sandy Clegg said: die /dī/ intransitive verb (or transitive verb with object death) (dyˈing; died /dīd/) To lose life To perish To wither (of an engine) to stop working To languish, suffer, long, or be very eager (for), esp in be dying for (informal) To be overcome by the effects (of) To merge. See also dying In addition to the important wordplay on "dye," with the Lommy Greenhands symbolism discussed earlier, I would propose that we consider "dice" as part of this wordplay. Given what we know (and the insights in this thread) about skinchanging, it seems very significant to me that Tyrion wins a shadowcat cloak in a dice game with Marillion -- the two men share one skin, and it is a shadow skin. In case we miss any of the symbolism, while Tyrion is in the ice cell, the cloak is taken by Mord, whose name means death. Tyrion later wears that cloak to visit the underground storage area where the Alchemists ("Wisdom") store their Wildfire supply. I have speculated that Wildfire might be made out of dragon blood (which is why a big supply is found under the Dragon Pit). Is the Alchemist's storage area similar to the underground storage area where Dany's dragons have been imprisoned? Tyrion's cloak may give him special shadow protection from the lethal fire weapon. Quote where the beginning of one chapter offers a (usually) thematic link with the ending of the previous one. Sometimes it’s on-the-nose, and offers a cute narrative segue In addition to this excellent observation, I think we should look deeper into surrounding chapters. In Chapter 38, The Watcher (Areo Hotah POV), we see Ser Gregor's skull delivered to House Martell. I think that skull is a symbolic dragon egg. Take it or leave it, but the name Gregor Clegane anagrams neatly into Green Grace Log. We know that "Your Grace" is a way of addressing a king, and we know what a Green Grace is in ASOIAF. Logs are also important symbols. (For instance, Tyrion stepping over a burning log when he emerges from the hidden passage in the fireplace before killing Tywin.) Here's a key moment when we observe the death of a Green Grace: Quote The cobbler told them how the body of the Butcher King had been disinterred and clad in copper armor, after the Green Grace of Astapor had a vision that he would deliver them from the Yunkai'i. Armored and stinking, the corpse of Cleon the Great was strapped onto the back of a starving horse to lead the remnants of his new Unsullied on a sortie, but they rode right into the iron teeth of a legion from New Ghis and were cut down to a man. "Afterward the Green Grace was impaled upon a stake in the Plaza of Punishment and left until she died. In the pyramid of Ullhor, the survivors had a great feast that lasted half the night, and washed the last of their food down with poison wine so none need wake again come morning. Soon after came the sickness, a bloody flux that killed three men of every four, until a mob of dying men went mad and slew the guards on the main gate." The old brickmaker broke in to say, "No. That was the work of healthy men, running to escape the flux." ADWD, Daenerys V In one-on-one combat, Ser Gregor is impaled on the spear of Oberyn Martell. Even while pinned to the ground, he manages to grab Oberyn and to put out his eyes and crush his skull. The crushing of Oberyn's skull may be another dragon egg hatching - perhaps giving birth to the Sand Snakes as red dragons. When Ser Gregor's "green" skull is delivered to Dorne, the Martells celebrate by eating a dessert of sugar skulls. Thirty chapters on, if your interpretation is correct, Quentyn becomes the green dragon, Rhaegal. After his eyes were burned out by a ball of fire. (There's also something significant going on here with Rhaegar having knighted Ser Gregor; Ser Gregor killing Elia Martell; Oberyn killing and being killed by Ser Gregor; Quentyn becoming Rhaegal.) The "frog" and "forge" discussion is always of interest to me, and @Frey Family Reunion has already called attention to the "bellowing" and "furnace" that accompany Quentyn being transformed by his "kissed by fire" mating with Rhaegal. I think we should consider the good frog observations in the OP alongside Quentyn's line of descent from Princess Meria Martell, who was known as "The Yellow Toad of Dorne." I know that a toad and a frog are not the same thing, but it seems significant to sorting out the symbols around Quentyn. "Tod" is also the German word for "death," so perhaps Quentyn is a frog before he meets Rhaegal and Tod after. On 7/28/2023 at 8:29 AM, Evolett said: Hotpie is a baker and expert at handling flour which he kneads just right to bake excellent bread. Bread, of course must be baked in a heated oven I think you've helped to explain something that has felt unfinished to me. The pairing of Hotpie and Lommy had to be deliberate, but I wasn't sure why or how, and I wondered why Lommy died so long ago but Hotpie survived. If they represent necessary ingredients for hatching a dragon, the symbolism starts to work. Like the Green Grace and Ser Gregor, Lommy Greenhands has to dye/die for the next step to occur in the dragon hatching. But Hotpie also has to make bread, which we know is called "Pain" in France. To make bread, one makes dough, lets it rise, punches it down, lets it rise again and then bakes it. The entire process would be painful, if you are the dough. (We also have House Payne, relating to this motif. I had wondered if Ser Ilyn and Podrick are window panes, but I bet they are bakers. Or both bakers and window panes. Ser Ilyn is teaching Jaime to use his left arm and Podrick has saved Brienne - although she is undergoing all kinds of pain - and he is also looking to save Tyrion.) In other words, dying and rising are paired opposites like the many symbolic pairs in ASOIAF - fire / ice, north / south, bitter / sweet, shaggy / sharp, the mountain that rides / the stallion that mounts the world, etc. I think the dragon being hatched by Lommy and Hotpie is Gendry, who spends a lot of time in a forge. A tangent, but probably relevant to the strong parallel between Bran and Quentyn: the name "Hodor" may allude to both "dough" (except "Hod" is "dough" spelled backwards) and a "door." While Quentyn is being absorbed by the dragon, Bran is entering into Hodor and becoming a prince (and also a knight). Maybe the dough can make a dragon or a prince, depending where the oven is or the order of the ingredients. I love that this discussion loops in Asha Greyjoy. Her lovers are all significant and her first one, iirc, was Tristifer Botley, who wants to marry her. The Tristifer connection brings us to Tristifer Mudd, an important ruler of the Rivers and Hills. The mud motif connected to Quentyn and Asha's lack of interest in Tristifer Botley are almost certainly related motifs. Finally, I have to make, once again, my heavily-belabored point about the clues Glendon Flowers offers us about Quentyn Martell. (Additional links in the link.) @Megorova has offered a fascinating theory that Quentyn Ball, known as Fireball, was the guardian of the baby son of Prince Daemon Blackfyre, and that baby grew up to be Ser Duncan the Tall. (Probably) Bloodraven and his archers killed Quentyn and the baby eventually reached the care of Ser Arlan of Pennytree. (I just wrote in another thread about the possible symbolism of the Pennytree as a unification of the tree and the serpent.) Later Bloodraven spots Dunk in a crowd and he may or may not engineer the meeting and pairing of Dunk & Egg. I haven't gotten to The Mystery Knight in my analysis of Dunk & Egg, but we know that Glendon goes through a transformation to become the new Fireball and he is wrongfully accused of stealing a dragon egg that is actually taken by Bloodraven. Glendon defeats Daemon II, in spite of having been tortured and imprisoned shortly before the joust. (Pain?) I love that this thread has clarified the way that a human and a dragon can merge. We already knew that fire was necessary to hatch a dragon egg. I suspect that Glendon "Fireball" Ball delivers the fireball that is needed to "hatch" the egg that had been given to Lord Butterwell. Everyone thinks that Egg revealing himself as a hidden Targ is the fulfillment of the prophecy about a dragon hatching at Whitewalls, but it may be that Dunk also hatches. Possibly Bloodraven hatches, too, from his Maynard Plumm identity. Will we ever see or hear from Glendon again? Or is he symbolically consumed in the process of hatching the dragons at Whitewalls, as Quentyn is apparently consumed in the process of freeing Rhaegal and Viserion from the dungeon? On 7/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, Sandy Clegg said: "What I want," said the Tattered Prince, "is Pentos.” Both "Pentos" and "Quentyn" may allude to the number five - The Tattered Prince may be saying that he wants Quentyn to be sacrificed. And he seems to get his wish. And I bet that sacrificing a "five" is analogous to cutting off a hand - five fingers. We see a number of hands and Hands put to death in ASOIAF. Evolett and Aejohn the Conqueroo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted August 8, 2023 Share Posted August 8, 2023 People who think faking deaths and false identities cheapen a story are reading the wrong series. While I think it's possible Quentin is alive, it's also possible he's dead. It wouldn't be hard for GRRM to write it either way, and thematically, I think both ways could work. That said, rather than rehash this old debate, I want to fucus on one part of your post, and look at some possible references. Finally, despairing of rest, Quentyn Martell made his way to his solar, where he poured himself a cup of wine and drank it in the dark. The taste was sweet solace on his tongue, so he lit a candle and poured himself another. Wine will help me sleep, he told himself, but he knew that was a lie. He stared at the candle for a long time, then put down his cup and held his palm above the flame. It took every bit of will he had to lower it until the fire touched his flesh, and when it did he snatched his hand back with a cry of pain. "Quentyn, are you mad?" No, just scared. I do not want to burn. One can only be brave when one is afraid. First, the phrase "sweet solace", is an interesting one. O laborum, Dulce lenimen "O sweet solace of labors" -Horace, Odes 1.32 ("To the Lyre") One may note that the famous roman poet, Horace, has the full name Quintus Horatius Flaccus. The lyre, in Horaces ode, is described directly before the quote above as, "o decus Phoebi", or the glory of Apollo. The epithet Phoebus means "shining one" or "bright". Ironically, in English, "lyre" and "liar" are homophones. Perhaps even more relevant here, Horace also wrote: Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori, "it is sweet and fitting to die for one's country" "Dulce et decorum est" is also the name of a famous poem by Wilfred Owen, written about WWI, in reference to Horace, which ends: My friend, you would not tell with such high zest To children ardent for some desperate glory, The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori. Theodore Roosevelt's son, who died in WWI, was named Quentin. I love these references, intended or not, but I'm not sure they bring me any closer to being able to make a confident prediction about Quentyn's fate. Finally, the word "dragontamer" (the name of the chapter) appears (according to asearchoficeandfire) only once, in The Princess and the Queen. The largest and oldest of the wild dragons was the Cannibal, so named because he had been known to feed on the carcasses of dead dragons, and descend upon the hatcheries of Dragonstone to gorge himself on newborn hatchlings and eggs. Would-be dragontamers had made attempts to ride him a dozen times; his lair was littered with their bones. None of the dragonseeds were fool enough to disturb the Cannibal (any who were did not return to tell their tales). Some sought the Grey Ghost, but could not find him, for he was ever an elusive creature. Sheepstealer proved easier to flush out, but he remained a vicious, ill-tempered beast, who killed more seeds than the three “castle dragons” together. One who hoped to tame him (after his quest for Grey Ghost proved fruitless) was Alyn of Hull. Sheepstealer would have none of him. When he stumbled from the dragon’s lair with his cloak aflame, only his brother’s swift action saved his life. Seasmoke drove the wild dragon off as Addam used his own cloak to beat out the flames. Alyn Velaryon would carry the scars of the encounter on his back and legs for the rest of his long life. Yet he counted himself fortunate, for he lived. Many of the other seeds and seekers who aspired to ride upon Sheepstealer’s back ended in Sheepstealer’s belly instead. In the end, the brown dragon was brought to heel by the cunning and persistence of a “small brown girl” of six-and-ten, named Netty, who delivered him a freshly slaughtered sheep every morning, until Sheepstealer learned to accept and expect her. She was black-haired, brown-eyed, brown-skinned, skinny, foul-mouthed, filthy, and fearless … and the first and last rider of the dragon Sheepstealer. And, while Sheepstealer killed many would be dragontamers, we are given an explicit example of a man being lit on fire and surviving. So honestly, I really can't decide what I think about Quentyn, but I hope one day to find out. Evolett and SaffronLady 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted August 8, 2023 Share Posted August 8, 2023 Dragons are not direwolves, and dragon riders are not wargs. The bond with a warg and their direwolf is different than a dragon rider's to their dragon. When a warg dies, they merge with their familiar for their second life. Dragon riders are not wargs, however "Once a dragon has bonded with a rider, that dragon will not allow anyone else to mount it alone while its rider lives, no matter how familiar said person might be to the dragon. But when the person bonded to the dragon is on the dragon's back, they may take a passenger. When the rider of a dragon dies, that dragon can bond with a new rider. No rider has ever ridden a different dragon while their current dragon was alive." Wiki, Dragon page. The relationship of dragon rider is similar to that of direwolves with their wargs. Being that both dragons and direwolves are magical beings who bond with humans, the idea of a second life, or a merge if you will between a bonded dragon rider and their dragon does seem possible. So why then Quentyn with Rhaegal? Good question. Evolett and Sandy Clegg 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Clegg Posted August 9, 2023 Author Share Posted August 9, 2023 (edited) 21 hours ago, LongRider said: Being that both dragons and direwolves are magical beings who bond with humans, the idea of a second life, or a merge if you will between a bonded dragon rider and their dragon does seem possible. So why then Quentyn with Rhaegal? Good question. True, we have two magic bonding processes and as it happens that they are also thematic opposites. I think we have to cling to some 'solid themes' when we go speculative, so how about this? Quote Aemon chuckled softly. "Or I am an old man, feverish and dying." He closed his white eyes wearily, then forced them open once again. "I should not have left the Wall. Lord Snow could not have known, but I should have seen it. Fire consumes, but cold preserves. Fire consumes, but cold preserves. Clearly, the wargs belong to the icy North theme, which is where we find them in the story. Wargs can live on in their animals, albeit their spirits slowly growing more bestial as time goes on. Quote "When the man's flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains." Still, wargs linger within the animal. Perhaps a strong warg may linger a good long while ... Ice preserves. If we view the dragon-soul bond in opposition to this, then we should not expect e.g. Quentyn's soul to linger long within a dragon. Fire would consume his being, not preserve it. Although if the sacrifice does not die immediately then there may be a transition period - which is possibly what we are seeing - being 'represented' if not actually 'transpiring' - in Quentyn's fever dream in The Dragontamer. He does not want to burn - or rather his soul to burn. This short-lived soul transition is also seen in the Kingsmoot scene, as I have theorised previously, when Euron's horn-blower's heart 'burns out' and his soul likely enters the nearby seagull: Quote A thin wisp of smoke was rising from the horn, and the priest saw blood and blisters upon the lips of the man who'd sounded it. The bird on his chest was bleeding too. Euron Greyjoy climbed the hill slowly, with every eye upon him. Above the gull screamed and screamed again. Screams which echo that of Quentyn. Presumably, due to the lack of dragons nearby, his soul ends up - briefly - in the nearby gull, only to fade away. Which would only be a mercy in this case. Now, this does tie in to my idea of Victarion being next up in the dragon-soul bonding procedure. However, he has been afforded something of an ace up his sleeve with regard to the chances of his soul's 'survival' following the process. Moqorro has healed his arm with fire magic, possibly offering an element of protection. I think with Vic's unique situation we are entering uncharted territory in the story for once and we may - hopefully - get a full-blown Victarion-as-Dragon POV. Edited August 9, 2023 by Sandy Clegg Evolett, SaffronLady, LongRider and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Sandy Clegg said: True, we have two magic bonding processes and as it happens that they are also thematic opposites. I think we have to cling to some 'solid themes' when we go speculative, so how about this? That is why I brought up the wargs bond and the dragon tamer/rider bond. A warg's 2nd life is the 'solid theme' to bounce off of. Also, interestingly, the Varamyr prologue Quenton's Dragon Tamer chapter are in the same book. As for your suggestion of 'Fire consumes, but cold preserves.' as a solid theme, yes, that makes sense to me also. 1 hour ago, Sandy Clegg said: Still, wargs linger within the animal. Perhaps a strong warg may linger a good long while ... Ice preserves. If we view the dragon-soul bond in opposition to this, then we should not expect e.g. Quentyn's soul to linger long within a dragon. This is a good insight, although, if you're correct, what time frame a soul can linger in a dragon remains to be seen. Time is relative, after all. 1 hour ago, Sandy Clegg said: I think with Vic's unique situation we are entering uncharted territory in the story for once and we may - hopefully - get a full-blown Victarion-as-Dragon POV. That would be interesting! Sandy Clegg 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolett Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 2 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said: Fire consumes, but cold preserves. This approach does make sense. 2 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said: Clearly, the wargs belong to the icy North theme, which is where we find them in the story. Wargs can live on in their animals, albeit their spirits slowly growing more bestial as time goes on. Fire consuming the soul in a relatively short time then means the danger of the soul becoming more bestial is reduced, which is desirable, especially since dragons do live long lives, usually outliving their first and even second riders. Perhaps the soul can even persist without being consumed for as long as there is contact with a rider that reminds it of it's humanity. And in the event of a dragon being left riderless for a while, the soul is then consumed so as to prevent a complete merger and / or backsliding into the dragon's natural "bestial" state. Then, once the dragon remains riderless for too long, a new round of "taming" may be required. Maybe this is what we see not only with the dragons and dragonseeds during the Dance but also with Dany and Drogon. We assume Drogon carries Drogo's soul but the dragon was off in the wild for quite some time, away from Dany, away from humankind basically. Dany did have quite a hard time dominating him in the pit. If Drogo is indeed in Drogon, he certainly needed a lot of reminding that the "moon of his life" was before him. I can't recall every detail of the dragon seeding but do remember that quite a number of would-be-hopefull's ended up burned or eaten. Many suffered the same fate as Quentyn did. If previous souls had been consumed, perhaps these deaths were necessary, in order to provide fresh souls that would then pave the way for the final rider. 3 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said: This short-lived soul transition is also seen in the Kingsmoot scene, as I have theorised previously, when Euron's horn-blower's heart 'burns out' and his soul likely enters the nearby seagull: Quentyn has Targaryen blood but it is far removed or diluted. Maybe the "blood of the dragon," which implies some fiery property, is the key to being able to linger longer within a dragon? Presumably a "a fiery soul" might last longer, not be consumed as quickly, in the "fire made flesh" dragons. On 8/8/2023 at 11:05 PM, LongRider said: So why then Quentyn with Rhaegal? Good question. Perhaps it's as simple as the dragon that does the burning gets to keep the soul. But your question has led to another thought as well. We've been thinking along the lines of Targ blood being necessary to ride a dragon but I now see the possibility of this not being necessary at all, because if it the internalized soul or consciousness that rules the dragon, then this "soul" should be able to pick a rider of his own choosing and reject those would be riders he does not like or consider suitable. I'm thinking of Orell's eagle as a possible clue to this here. The eagle hated Jon Snow because Orell hated Jon Snow, going as far as attacking him. Orell's hate was so strong that Varamyr felt it. Orell's consciousness determines the eagles actions. So we can postulate that Quentyn will determine who will ride Rhaegal. He may thus end up helping Dorne and fulfill his father's wishes by making Rhaegal available to Arianne or more likely to fAegon (if that's to be the set up). Conversely, if Victarion gets into Viserion, he will undoubtedly prevent Euron from riding the dragon. He has too many bones to pic with Euron not to take advantage of thrawting him should this soul transfer business be a thing. Craving Peaches, LongRider and Sandy Clegg 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Clegg Posted August 10, 2023 Author Share Posted August 10, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, Evolett said: So we can postulate that Quentyn will determine who will ride Rhaegal. He may thus end up helping Dorne and fulfill his father's wishes by making Rhaegal available to Arianne or more likely to fAegon (if that's to be the set up). Conversely, if Victarion gets into Viserion, he will undoubtedly prevent Euron from riding the dragon. He has too many bones to pic with Euron not to take advantage of thrawting him should this soul transfer business be a thing. So we could differentiate between a working consciousness and an 'echo' of one in this case. It does seem that dragons have so far shown little indications of 'human' intelligence throughout e.g. Fire and Blood. But a lingering essence which may 'favour' people/riders from similar bloodlines would work. Wargs and skinchangers seem to operate differently, and it is the 'host' mind that is quelled when they enter the beast (or human - see Hodor). The animal takes on a temporary human 'operator' in the case of a warg, whereas dragons may permanently take on some of that human's 'blood loyalty' while stripping away the human awareness? There are bound to be some elements which differ in how the process works Ice-wise and Fire-wise. It's something George may be keen to explore, hopefully. Rhaegal attacking the blockade of ships in Slaver's Bay, as I've mentioned, would be something that an 'echo' of Quentyn might do. It's a more strategic attack, and helps Dany more than eating bodies flung from catapults (which seem to be Viserion's favourite snack in TWOW). Quote The green beast was circling above the bay, banking and turning as longships and galleys clashed and burned below him, but it was the white dragon the sellswords were gawking at. Three hundred yards away the Wicked Sister swung her arm, chunk-THUMP, and six fresh corpses went dancing through the sky. Up they rose, and up, and up. Then two burst into flame. The dragon caught one burning body just as it began to fall, crunching it between his jaws as pale fires ran across his teeth. White wings cracked against the morning air, and the beast began to climb again. Also, there is the clue of Quentyn being descended from Nymeria, burner of the thousand ships. And yes, Rhaegal (regal) is a more 'princely' name than Viserion. Quote He may thus end up helping Dorne and fulfill his father's wishes by making Rhaegal available to Arianne or more likely to fAegon (if that's to be the set up). I've also had these thoughts, and it makes sense for keeping Arianne around in the story. The Dornish connection to the story feels rather weak following Quentyn's death - especially as George has invested so much time in them during AFFC and ADWD. Likewise for the Ironborn. Victarion and Quentyn's POVs 'living on' through dragons somehow will make Arianne/Asha/Euron's stories all the more intriguing should they eventually run into the dragons (which we have to assume is a strong possibility). Edited August 10, 2023 by Sandy Clegg LongRider 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolett Posted August 10, 2023 Share Posted August 10, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said: So we could differentiate between a working consciousness and an 'echo' of one in this case. It does seem that dragons have so far shown little indications of 'human' intelligence throughout e.g. Fire and Blood. But a lingering essence which may 'favour' people/riders from similar bloodlines would work. Wargs and skinchangers seem to operate differently, and it is the 'host' mind that is quelled when they enter the beast (or human - see Hodor). The animal takes on a temporary human 'operator' in the case of a warg, whereas dragons may permanently take on some of that human's 'blood loyalty' while stripping away the human awareness? There are bound to be some elements which differ in how the process works Ice-wise and Fire-wise. It's something George may be keen to explore, hopefully. Yes, I'm thinking along these lines. The comparisons we have of a merged animal/human's perception such as, Bran, Varamyr etc. in their wolves, with the human's thinking and acting coloured by the wolf's - as in swords are "man claws" for instance. I think it may depend on the basic underlying intelligence the animal itself exhibits but not only that. There is the physical component too. Hodor is human and so we have an almost perfect transfer with Bran being able to walk, talk and appear like any other normal human being. Consider also a parrot for instance. Some members of the parrot family can imitate the human voice - their vocal chords can produce the same sounds we make. And this is perhaps the secret behind Mormont's Raven. It talks. I suspect George has given Ravens this feature of parrots. As such, the soul within is able to express it's thoughts verbally to a certain extent. Mormont's raven is thus "cleverer" than other ravens because of the human presence within and it also different in that it prefers corn and fruit. So now we may ask if the it's the inhabiting soul that really has these preferences. Was Bloodraven vegetarian? Or does the fact that he's tied to a plant influence this? But weirwoods also a "enjoy" a blood meal. Is it really Bloodraven within or some other soul? Lot's of questions. Another factor would be the personality and or achievements of the inhabiting soul, as suggested by the Dothraki belief: Quote The more fiercely the man burned in life, the brighter his star will shine in the darkness. This in turn would underpin the "cleverness" of Mormont's raven, BR not only being a person of much consequence in life, but a powerful greenseer as well. And of course the merged warg duos can sense the presence or even death (Lady) of their kin. Edited August 10, 2023 by Evolett Sandy Clegg 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Clegg Posted August 19, 2023 Author Share Posted August 19, 2023 On 8/10/2023 at 10:43 AM, Evolett said: Consider also a parrot for instance. Some members of the parrot family can imitate the human voice - their vocal cords can produce the same sounds we make. I stumbled across an old Reddit thread recently that wondered whether Mormont’s raven would be able to aspirate the letter ‘H’. If not, it might be that some instances of it’s calling ‘Corn!’ might be the bird attempting to say ‘Horn!’. The idea of horns at the Wall having a different message for one, two or three soundings would fit nicely with the raven, who generally cries things out in ones, twos or threes. SaffronLady 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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