The Starks are Andals (or "what's in a name?")

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't see the Ghiscari as good parallels for Greek City states,

Well I wasn't hung up on every detail mirroring, that would be frankly boring. As mentioned above, they're all likely loose inspirations. England never had dragons so far as we know, but there was the war of the Red dragon (Welsh) vs the White Dragon (Anglo-Saxons), plus the Norse rode dragon ships. Plus yea, Sparta was never a city state, it was a Kingdom. Also, lets not forget Alexander the Greats short lived Empire.

Its off topic so I dont want to derail from the OP much, but the idea of Yi-Ti being Phoenicia/Lebanon connects it to European/Essosi events and myths. Its from Lebanon that the word Bible comes from, from Byblos where the papyrus paper was made that it was written on. Further, their gods were considered the same, with Baal Hadad being Zeus/ Jupiter/ Tyr (Ziu in Old High German). While Jesus the Morning Star was called Earendel in Christ 1 poem 800Ad, which is Old English for Eosphorus, the Morningstar. Who is likely the inspiration behind Azor Ahai, Bloodstone Emperor who is the 13th member of the Gemstone Empire. 

Iapetus was linked to Japheth (יֶפֶת) one of the sons of Noah and a progenitor of mankind in biblical accounts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapetus

This would make Uranus, the father of the Titan Iapetus, Noah. The 10th generation since Adam and Eve. With the Titan Hyperion being the 11th. His daughter Eos (Eastre/ Easter), being the 12th, while Eosphorus the morning star is the 13th.

So my idea is based off a lot of other ideas.

(Yes I know Tyrosh is the ones in the books who make purple dye, but the symbolism in purple is in Valyria, who they come from, and even Yi-Ti. Not all inspirations are exact mirrors, but they rhyme.) 

Edited July 30, 2023 by AlaskanSandman

[Alester Florent]

38 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well I wasn't hung up on every detail mirroring, that would be frankly boring. As mentioned above, they're all likely loose inspirations. England never had dragons so far as we know, but there was the war of the Red dragon (Welsh) vs the White Dragon (Anglo-Saxons), plus the Norse rode dragon ships. Plus yea, Sparta was never a city state, it was a Kingdom. Also, lets not forget Alexander the Greats short lived Empire.

Is there any reason a city-state can't be ruled by a king? As... very many Greek city states were, and Rome for that matter in its earliest period. Moreover, "kingdom" isn't really an exclusive government type: they come in all different shapes and sizes.

Quote

Its off topic so I dont want to derail from the OP much, but the idea of Yi-Ti being Phoenicia/Lebanon connects it to European/Essosi events and myths. Its from Lebanon that the word Bible comes from, from Byblos where the papyrus paper was made that it was written on. Further, their gods were considered the same, with Baal Hadad being Zeus/ Jupiter/ Tyr (Ziu in Old High German). While Jesus the Morning Star was called Earendel in Christ 1 poem 800Ad, which is Old English for Eosphorus, the Morningstar. Who is likely the inspiration behind Azor Ahai, Bloodstone Emperor who is the 13th member of the Gemstone Empire. 

This is the first I'm hearing of Azor Ahai being the Bloodstone Emperor. In the relevant legends, it was the Bloodstone Emperor who started the Long Night, and Azor Ahai who ended it.

For what it's worth, and from the extremely limited information available about pre-Doom history and the world beyond the Bones in general, I believe "Azor Ahai" to be a name from either Sarnor or possibly Asshai. The Yi Ti-ish version of the name seems likely to be Yin Tar.

Quote

(Yes I know Tyrosh is the ones in the books who make purple dye, but the symbolism in purple is in Valyria, who they come from, and even Yi-Ti. Not all inspirations are exact mirrors, but they rhyme.) 

The similar nomenclature of Tyrosh and Tyre is obviously a complete coincidence.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Its part of Asia Minor or Western Asia. 

 

Ill respond to the rest when I have a lil more time.

I don't trust any source that claims that Anatolia and the Levant are the same place. They're not. Moreover, when I actualy looked up the definition on Catholic Answers, the apparent source in question, it states the following: Asia Minor, the peninsular mass that the Asiatic continent projects westward of an imaginary line running from the Gulf of Alexandretta (Issus) on the Mediterranean to the vicinity of Trebizond (Trapezus) on the Black Sea.

Given that the Levant lies on the eastern shore of the Gulf of Alexandretta, it's clearly not part of Asia Minor even by that definition.

This isn't exactly a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but when you're displaying such apparent confusion with regards to real-world geography, it's not encouraging for the theories that you're basing on it.

[Craving Peaches]

55 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

As mentioned above, they're all likely loose inspirations.

Yes, but there is far more obvious stuff that links Yi Ti to imperial China above Phoenicia - it's location in the very far east of the world, the name(s) (Yi Ti means 'whole' or 'all' in Mandarin according to my dictionary app), it being ruled by an Emperor and being an Empire (Phoenicia was never considered a unified entity and the people did not consider themselves to be one group either), having a moving capital, Emperors being associated with colours and precious stones, a succession of Imperial Dynasties, larger cities in comparison to Westeros, a nomadic frontier with a 'wall' of forts, the length of time their civilisation has existed, the divine status of the Emperor, their naming conventions, exports...

If you want to get into geography, Yi Ti also has a desert above it like the Gobi desert to/in the North of China, mountains to the east like the Khingan mountains to/in the east of China, and borders the nomadic Jhogos Nhai like China bordered the Mongols and Jurchens.

I mean, just look at the Yi Ti artwork in the World Book. It is clearly inspired by China.

[SaffronLady]

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

But you're the authority on what inspired him, dude?

I'll just consider the op a gone topic and of course no I did not inspire GRRM. I just made the more reasonable guess based on what we actually know about the place.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

You're welcome to think what you want. If you want it to be China, then sure. Its China. Its missing the shore and Ocean but ok

The same to you. If you want it to be Phoenicia, then sure, it's Phoenicia. Its capital moves between dynasties and it launches armies hundreds of thousands strong against nomads but ok.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

They're called "Bright Eyed". Something people in China are not. Where as people in modern day Phoenicia/ Lebanon actually do have "Bright Eyes" as some have blue eyes 

That's just plain racist. Who said people with black irises couldn't have bright eyes of confidence?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Everything in the story has been pointing at the Stark family beggining during the First Men era and of them having mostly First Men blood, later mixed with Andal blood via marriages, and of them having repelled the Andals' attempts to invade the North by force.

Not counting that no maester or any other intellectual or enlighted mind in the series has ever said that this may not be true.

So the idea of the Starks being in truth Andals look very ludicrous to me.

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I'll just consider the op a gone topic and of course no I did not inspire GRRM. I just made the more reasonable guess based on what we actually know about the place.

The same to you. If you want it to be Phoenicia, then sure, it's Phoenicia. Its capital moves between dynasties and it launches armies hundreds of thousands strong against nomads but ok.

Everything about Yi Ti, starting with the name, seems to me to be so obviously Chinese-inspired that I am legitimately baffled anyone could think anything else.

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Everything about Yi Ti, starting with the name, seems to me to be so obviously Chinese-inspired that I am legitimately baffled anyone could think anything else.

I'll not be one to judge...

[sweetsunray]

Regarding Yi Ti: It's fantasy and fiction! Fantasy draws from various ethnicities, geographies and histories of the real world or histories, sometimes mixing stuff up so the author makes it his own, rather than a historical accurate copy. It's quite obvious that much of Yi Ti is inspired on China and Yogos Nhai from Mongolia and the Dothraki from the Huns, but none of them are exactly Chinese/China, or Mongolia or the Huns. They are Yi Ti, Yogos Nhai and Dothraki. Similarly neither the Andals or the Ironborn are vikings. They are Andals and they are Ironborn. Etc.

Regarding OP. The Starks are First Men. But per George the First Men are not to be regarded as a homogenous race or even ethnic group, but as a migration of several people/clans/ethnicities that vaguely occurred around the same time. The seeming contradicting claims of Garth the Green versus the First King at the Barrows in the North support George's words, as well as the Daynes being proto-Valyrian. 

From the histories of the Andals and the region of Norvos, Lorath, and Illyrio's words we can infer that the Andals did not sail for Westeros long after Old Valyria controlled most of Essos west of the Bones, after Nymeria and her people fled Essos. Though the Andals created the kingdom Andalos at some point (after the Rhoynar taught them how to work good iron and steel) and chased off the hairy men from the mainland at the Bay of Lorath to the abandoned isles of Lorath. The Andals however did not kill, chase or enslave these hairy men in Lorath until centuries later. This means that the Andals had not yet made usable ships to cross to Lorath from Andalos, let alone cross Westeros. By the time they are able to get to Lorath by ship, Old Valyria is already a growing power in Essos.

The Andals also did not build in stone. Some maesters try to make it sound as if the Andals had superor architectural knowledge or insight, but that is a falsehood and propaganda. The Andals built only with wood in Andalos. We know this because even the last famous king of Andalos who besieged Norvos and invited the wrath of Valyria onto him and the Andals at Lorath, built a wooden fortress at the heart of the biggest stone maze of the "mazemakers". Nor are there any Andal ruins to be found in Andalos, though Rhoynar ruins can be found along the borders of Andalos. In the Norvos section of the World Book, we learn that long before the Norvosi arrived there used to be a people who only built villages with wood, who were then chased off by hairy men (for these people did not know how to work iron), and we also get the mention that the Andals typically built with wood.

So basically the migration can be puzzled together as this with regards to Andalos:

• proto-Andals lived in the region of Norvos and the Axe, building with wood, not knowing how to forge good iron or steel tools.
• In what is now know as the Dothraki Sea, Huzor Amai brought three people together and fougth and beat the hairy men who lived there as well, because one of these people knew how to forge good iron armor and weapons.
• The hairy men migrated westward and chased off the proto-Andals out of the hills of Norvos (because they had no steel or good iron tools), and the proto Andals survived in the Axe alone.
• The Rhoynar did not like the hairy men living north of their domain and chased them off further west with their forged iron. But they had no interest in settling in the hills of Norvos and we can assume they did not want the hairy men to return into the hills of Norvos. This would have been the motivation for the Rhoynar to teach the surviving proto Andals in the Axe, so that they could reoccupy the hills of Norvos.
• Once they knew how to forge good iron themselves, the Andals dreamed of expansion and went more Westward in Essos to create Andalos, to eventually chase off the hairy men (now with iron) to flee to Lorath.
• Only centuries later do the Andals sail for Lorath and finish off the last of the hairy men. Around this time or maybe even later do the first Andals start to try to cross the Narrow Sea with ships.
• By then the Starks are already Kings in the North, and not just petty Kings of Winter anymore, and the Gardeners also already long in existence. The First Men already knew how to build stone fortresses, while the Andals did not yet do so.
• Though the Andals are able to beat plenty of First Men with their steel, the First Men had difficult stone fortresses to conquer. In some cases this enabled the First Men to withstand the Andal efforts: Moat Cailin and Storm's End. The Arryns were some of the first Andals who started to build in stone, copying the First Men.
• The world book claims that the First Men did not architecturally improve their stone castles until the Andals arrived, implying that the Andals passed on the knowledge. But they could not have done so. We must simply recognize that the Andal steel and their willingness to conquer added an external pressure on the First Men to improve their stone fortresses to withstand siege tactics. Square stone towers are good, but their weakness is the enemy digging tunnels beneath the square towers, and especially the corners. Tunneling is the way to collapse square defense towers. Round towers are much harder to bring down, even with tunnels beneath them. The round tower is the reason why Storm's End did not collapse when built over a hollow hill. Winterfell is also a hollow hill, and would once have been a secret underground city. Hence, again the oldest construction is a round tower there as well. So, some First Men (like the Starks and Durrandons) built round towers above their hollow greenseer hills, and during the Andal invasion proved to be critically better than square towers. So, the other First Men began to adapt their building to withstand the Andals better.

Yes, the victors try to change the histories to their advantage. That is, the Andals managed to conquer most of Westeros either by force or via marriages. And since then they claimed or appropriated technical advantages as being their invention or gift from the 7: forging iron, knighthood, stone architecture, sailing. But these are lies. The Rhoynar taught them iron, not a god. The Ironborn knew how to sail thousands of years before the Andals. And the Andals learned to build with stone from the First Men. And there were knights (lke the "Knight's" Watch) long before the Andals came. What the Andals actually brought with them was writing and their language. The First Men only used runes and limited. They had little need for writing, since they had greenseers to access histories. Andal Septons were the first to write down the tales. These Andal septons would have done so in their own language, rather than the language of the First Men. They were then at liberty to paste any word they liked onto the histories or spelling to fit their own agenda, let alone decide what content made it onto percament when it came to tales.

It makes zero sense for the Starks to lie about being Andal, if they won against the Andals. Andals were always quarrelsome amongst each other anyway, both in Andalos as well as the Vale or the Riverlands.

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I'll just consider the op a gone topic and of course no I did not inspire GRRM. I just made the more reasonable guess based on what we actually know about the place.

The same to you. If you want it to be Phoenicia, then sure, it's Phoenicia. Its capital moves between dynasties and it launches armies hundreds of thousands strong against nomads but ok.

That's just plain racist. Who said people with black irises couldn't have bright eyes of confidence?

Excuse me!?!?!?!?! You might wanna watch what you say to people. Accuse me of some shit like that.

 

You wanna debate the book, cool. You wanna debate the likely hood of people calling brown eyed people "Bright eyed", cool. You call me racist cause I say bright eyes aren't typically thought of as brown, then your way off base and beyondddd offensive. First of all, I have brown eyes and have never been told i have bright eyes. How does eye color even make one racist??? Such a beyond rude thing to say. 

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by AlaskanSandman

[AlaskanSandman]

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, but there is far more obvious stuff that links Yi Ti to imperial China above Phoenicia - it's location in the very far east of the world, the name(s) (Yi Ti means 'whole' or 'all' in Mandarin according to my dictionary app), it being ruled by an Emperor and being an Empire (Phoenicia was never considered a unified entity and the people did not consider themselves to be one group either), having a moving capital, Emperors being associated with colours and precious stones, a succession of Imperial Dynasties, larger cities in comparison to Westeros, a nomadic frontier with a 'wall' of forts, the length of time their civilisation has existed, the divine status of the Emperor, their naming conventions, exports...

If you want to get into geography, Yi Ti also has a desert above it like the Gobi desert to/in the North of China, mountains to the east like the Khingan mountains to/in the east of China, and borders the nomadic Jhogos Nhai like China bordered the Mongols and Jurchens.

I mean, just look at the Yi Ti artwork in the World Book. It is clearly inspired by China.

I don't doubt that there is inspiration from China, I just think there is also strong Phoenician influence. As stated before, China has no connective mythos to Europe, where as the Middle East does. Both are a part of Asia any ways and I wouldn't be surprised if there was Vedic/Indian influence too. I feel the Dothraki def are inspired by the Huns and Mongols. I just think its easier for George to give the feel of Asia by using word more akin to Mandarin rather than Semitic. Its obvious by this thread thus far that some for some reason debate whether the Middle East is even part of Asia, so clearly using some Chinese influence conveys his general idea better. 

Im quite surprised anyone would honestly even debate the Middle East being part of Asia. Like, they forgot the story of Noah and his sons. Ham got Africa, Japheth got Europe, and Shem got Asia (Some consider America his too since the Natives descend from peoples in China and Russia. Alexander the Great often referred to those lands as Asian also, but what ever. These types of view points obviously affect peoples interpretations of the books and thats ok. This is just my take. I think George is playing with the idea that like the Noah myth, or Iapetus myth, that we are tied by ancestry and so the lines of distinction gets murky when debating whether the Andals are Valyrian, or the Starks are Andals. There is debate on Hightower relations to Valyria and they have more evidence going for them than the Starks. I find some on this forum tend to agree upon ideas, while others disagree. I don't bug out by people disagreeing, though it does make some progress in discussion feel limiting. 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

15 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Is there any reason a city-state can't be ruled by a king? As... very many Greek city states were, and Rome for that matter in its earliest period. Moreover, "kingdom" isn't really an exclusive government type: they come in all different shapes and sizes.

This is the first I'm hearing of Azor Ahai being the Bloodstone Emperor. In the relevant legends, it was the Bloodstone Emperor who started the Long Night, and Azor Ahai who ended it.

For what it's worth, and from the extremely limited information available about pre-Doom history and the world beyond the Bones in general, I believe "Azor Ahai" to be a name from either Sarnor or possibly Asshai. The Yi Ti-ish version of the name seems likely to be Yin Tar.

The similar nomenclature of Tyrosh and Tyre is obviously a complete coincidence.

I don't trust any source that claims that Anatolia and the Levant are the same place. They're not. Moreover, when I actualy looked up the definition on Catholic Answers, the apparent source in question, it states the following: Asia Minor, the peninsular mass that the Asiatic continent projects westward of an imaginary line running from the Gulf of Alexandretta (Issus) on the Mediterranean to the vicinity of Trebizond (Trapezus) on the Black Sea.

Given that the Levant lies on the eastern shore of the Gulf of Alexandretta, it's clearly not part of Asia Minor even by that definition.

This isn't exactly a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but when you're displaying such apparent confusion with regards to real-world geography, it's not encouraging for the theories that you're basing on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Asia

Idk how many sources you need, but here is another clearly showing the Middle East as part of West Asia. Asia Minor is apparently specifically Turkey/Anatolia, but West Asia encompasses Asia Minor and the Middle East. 

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

As stated before, China has no connective mythos to Europe

If you mean myths and legends, Yi Ti in the story doesn't have any connective myths to Westeros either beyond a 'Long Night' which was a global event, much like the flood myth that crops up all over the world. Yi Ti's version of the hero who ended the Long Night is also different to everyone else's, being a woman with a monkey's tail. 

I doubt everyone in the world of Westeros is descended from the In-Universe equivalent of the Proto-Indo-Europeans (proto-Valyrians?) so myths not being very connected doesn't bother me with regards to Yi Ti (unless everyone is descended from GEotD people but there is no indication they are and the actual existence of the GEotD sounds more like a typical 'lost golden age' myth).

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im quite surprised anyone would honestly even debate the Middle East being part of Asia. Like, they forgot the story of Noah and his sons.

I don't exclude the Middle East from Asia but it has nothing to do with religious stories...

I know GRRM was raised as a Catholic, but I think this has influenced the FotS, not Yi Ti. I also wonder how much of the stuff included as myths in the World book will impact the main series...

[SaffronLady]

9 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It's quite obvious that much of Yi Ti is inspired on China and Yogos Nhai from Mongolia and the Dothraki from the Huns, but none of them are exactly Chinese/China, or Mongolia or the Huns. They are Yi Ti, Yogos Nhai and Dothraki.

Yes. Some colors don't really serve as definitive features of Chinese Emperors, both individually or representing entire dynasties, so that's a big difference from the Emperors of Yi Ti, who used colors that Chinese Emperors would never use because they're not "proper" colors, such as grey, indigo and sea-green.

Yellow as a fixed institution for Chinese Emperors actually came quite late in history. The Song dynasty (960-1279)  used red for formal imperial attire.

And Yeetish names really look more like Cantonese - a language none of the great Chinese empires used as a court language - than Mandarin.

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Excuse me!?!?!?!?! You might wanna watch what you say to people. Accuse me of some shit like that.

 

You wanna debate the book, cool. You wanna debate the likely hood of people calling brown eyed people "Bright eyed", cool. You call me racist cause I say bright eyes aren't typically thought of as brown, then your way off base and beyondddd offensive. First of all, I have brown eyes and have never been told i have bright eyes. How does eye color even make one racist??? Such a beyond rude thing to say. 

 

Yes yes of course, I should merrily ignore your condescending attitude and your general nonsense regarding why Yi Ti is more like Phoenicia instead of ancient China and play nice, because you're going to report me to the mods for being racist or something? Unless you have another source that explicitly says "bright eyes means lighter-colored eyes like light blue or light green", then my own bright brown eyes remain offended by your racist comment, dude.

You know what would make Yi Ti more like Phoenicia? Child Sacrifice. Do you know that, though?

And I'm so sorry for being passive aggresive. Please feel free to delete your previous posts and make it seem like I started this, even though it wasn't.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

21 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

But you're the authority on what inspired him, dude? lol You're welcome to think what you want. If you want it to be China, then sure. Its China. Its missing the shore and Ocean but ok They're called "Bright Eyed". Something people in China are not. Where as people in modern day Phoenicia/ Lebanon actually do have "Bright Eyes" as some have blue eyes 

I was literally just talking to my partner about this. Listen, fantasy races have weird eye colors. Constantly. Guess what? White people don't have gold flecked green eyes. They don't have stunning purple eyes. Or lilac eyes. Or whatever other colors the white folks have in these books. Fantasy races often have strangely colored eyes, if a fantasy race is described with Chinese features point for point...and then they also have bright eyes,...probably they are just Chinese with bright eyes. I see this with anime fans the worst who will claim half of the anime characters are actually caucasian because they have ____ eye color or _____ hair color, when neither of those colors are natural colors for literally any real life race to have. I am a huge fan of Brandon Sanderson in addition to GRRM, and I remember people going on and on about the eye colors or hair colors when Brandon Sanderson himself described the races in the Stormlight Archive as a mix between East Asian and South Asian. Yes, in a fantasy where one of your main races has purple eyes and silver hair, you could choose to have East Asian looking people having green eyes or orange hair or something. Caucasian people don't hold rights on all non-natural hair colors and eye colors in fantasy. 

Also, in case there is some argument about fair skin - East Asian people DO have fair skin, in fact often as fair or fairer than the average European. My partner, who is indeed East Asian, has lighter skin than me (I am Caucasian). 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Regarding Yi Ti: It's fantasy and fiction! Fantasy draws from various ethnicities, geographies and histories of the real world or histories, sometimes mixing stuff up so the author makes it his own, rather than a historical accurate copy. It's quite obvious that much of Yi Ti is inspired on China and Yogos Nhai from Mongolia and the Dothraki from the Huns, but none of them are exactly Chinese/China, or Mongolia or the Huns.

Just a small bone to pick - Based on the European historical concepts of these cultures not the actual cultures. The Dothraki share so little actually in common with the Huns, it makes me feel pain, however they do share a lot in common with Medieval racist interpretations of the Huns. Just a basic one - Huns wore armor. I am not sure on the numbers....but I know that the idea of Mongolian horde (Ie having a huge amount of troops) was completely false. The Mongols were constantly outnumbered, they just had superiorly trained troops and military techniques...but Chinese, European, South Asian, and West Asian historians didn't want to admit this; which is how we get the idea of the overwhelming forces. Again, I wish I knew more about the Huns..but I have a feeling GRRM was not inspired by any actual Hun history, and more a European perspective of the Huns (as an enemy or an OTHER). 

Random note as an East Asian History major - Kublai Khan's conquering of China looks a lot like Aegon I's conquering of Westeros, and he didn't have dragons. Constantly outnumbered, going around and conquering each individual province one by one, until he united his Empire under a brand new dynasty. And in this case, his attempted conquest of Japan which failed horribly can be represented by Dorne maybe? 

[Craving Peaches]

I understand there is a variety of inspirations for things but I really do not get the sense Phoenicia inspired Yi Ti...

• The government system is different
• The names and naming conventions are different
• The fashion is different
• The exports are different
• The geography is different - Yi Ti is in the far east (from Westeros) of the World, not the near east, and has jungles
• The Gods do not show similarities to Phoenician deities
• The Civilisations are different in terms of age and the fact that Yi Ti exists whereas Phoenicia was destroyed
• Phoenicians had a strong maritime presence but we don't see this from Yi Ti, but we do hear of an overland trade route like the silk road
• Phoenicians did not have a unified culture but by all indications Yi Ti does

The evidence for Yi Ti being inspired by Phoenicia relies on rather obscure links and correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to be motivated by a desire to have everything in the world connected in a big historic-mythological super-plot. The overwhelming presence of substantial differences between Yi Ti and Phoenicia suggests to me that Phoenicia was not inspiration for Yi Ti, and that these links are unintentional and coincidental. Besides, we have a much clearer Phoenicia/Carthage parallel in Ghis (next to the Rome parallel Valyria, in a ruined state, native culture mostly gone and replaced with conqueror's culture, brutal practices like the Phoenicians/Carthaginians, fought a series of wars with Rome/Valyria before finally being subdued, more similar geography in terms of terrain and proximity to Rome/Valyria, names sound vaguely more similar, Ghiscari cities relying on mercenaries like the Phoenicans in real life).

Edited July 31, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I was literally just talking to my partner about this. Listen, fantasy races have weird eye colors. Constantly. Guess what? White people don't have gold flecked green eyes. They don't have stunning purple eyes. Or lilac eyes. Or whatever other colors the white folks have in these books. Fantasy races often have strangely colored eyes, if a fantasy race is described with Chinese features point for point...and then they also have bright eyes,...probably they are just Chinese with bright eyes. I see this with anime fans the worst who will claim half of the anime characters are actually caucasian because they have ____ eye color or _____ hair color, when neither of those colors are natural colors for literally any real life race to have. I am a huge fan of Brandon Sanderson in addition to GRRM, and I remember people going on and on about the eye colors or hair colors when Brandon Sanderson himself described the races in the Stormlight Archive as a mix between East Asian and South Asian. Yes, in a fantasy where one of your main races has purple eyes and silver hair, you could choose to have East Asian looking people having green eyes or orange hair or something. Caucasian people don't hold rights on all non-natural hair colors and eye colors in fantasy. 

Also, in case there is some argument about fair skin - East Asian people DO have fair skin, in fact often as fair or fairer than the average European. My partner, who is indeed East Asian, has lighter skin than me (I am Caucasian). 

And to add to this, when I hear or read "bright-eyes" in a fantasy setting, I don't picture the color. I think of it as more of a glowey or shimmery look. There's a difference between light eyes and bright eyes. A bright shade of brown will probably come off as more golden or reddish. We call the sun, moon, and stars bright because they glow and shine, they illuminate.

So stuff like this, this, this, and this. It can be any eye color, just..brighter. When I describe my eye color to someone I just say 'light blue'. 'Bright blue' would be a little confusing, it sounds like I'm telling people I have intensely blue eyes.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Ser Arthurs Dawn

[Evolett]

This thread seems to have completely veered off-topic .... perhaps we can get back on track. 

 

13 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Regarding OP. The Starks are First Men. But per George the First Men are not to be regarded as a homogenous race or even ethnic group, but as a migration of several people/clans/ethnicities that vaguely occurred around the same time. The seeming contradicting claims of Garth the Green versus the First King at the Barrows in the North support George's words, as well as the Daynes being proto-Valyrian

That’s the essence of the matter. The Andals and Rhoynar are presented as immigrants with a collective identity, culture and religion. In contrast,  “First Men” is a catch-all term suggesting  heterogenous ethnic groups originating from different locations, cultures and civilizations, coming to Westeros with differing religious beliefs as well.

 

Having lived in isolation for so long, the Freefolk probably provide a snapshot of what First Men society was like. This would include diversity within the population itself (Thenns, Hornfoots, Walrus-Men, cave dwellers etc), traditions, culture, core principles, approaches to governance and leadership, marriage, the role of women in society, etc. Distinguishing them from southerners is their refusal to “kneel” to an overlord or king, the right to engage in debate and have their voices heard and the fact that a man must prove himself to woman and her family for a marriage to occur. The equally isolated Mountain Clans of the Moon adhere to similar traditions, suggesting altogether this may have been the way many sections of society functioned at the time of the FM.  However, even in Freefolk society, there are exceptions to the rule. Craster is lord of his own compound, marries his daughters and does not mix with the rest. The Thenns are led by a Magnar (meaning “lord”), who is considered more a god than a man by his people. Because they have laws and lords, some consider the Thenns more sophisticated than other free folk and closer to the people south of the Wall. The Thenns are also the only ones to actually engage in smithing beyond the Wall.

It's likely this frozen in time snapshot of the Freefolk can be applied to the FM in general, at least during the first centuries after their arrival. Noteworthy in this mix is that some of these groups came from technologically more advanced societies. The Daynes and Garth belong in this group. The Daynes because they forged a formidable sword from a material unknown to man, the “fallen star,” at a time when the FM were still working with bronze, and Garth because he obviously came to Westeros already well versed in the art of agriculture, teaching it to the FM.  

 

I think the ancestors of the Starks belong in this group of the technologically advanced as well. Bran being a builder suggests it. In the past, it was common for sons to take up the occupation of their fathers, to continue the family business and source of income, though in this case it’s more likely the expertise originated in the female ancestral line (irritatingly, no mention is made of the women Garth sired his famous brood on, except for the giantess who was mother to Jon the Oak. As a leader of men, it makes sense for Garth to have chosen women from sections of society capable of contributing to his cause or vision of the future). Whatever the case, that the art of building passed down generations is suggested in the text:

Quote

That tower (Hightower), we are told, rose two hundred feet above the harbor. Some say it was designed by Brandon the Builder, whilst others name his son, another Brandon;

Along with the Wall, Storm’s End is certainly testament to Brandon the Builder’s expertise:

Quote

It's (Storm’s End) great curtain wall was a hundred feet high, unbroken by arrow slit or postern, everywhere rounded, curving, smooth, its stones fit so cunningly together that nowhere was crevice nor angle nor gap by which the wind might enter.

 

Andal writers doubt that round towers could have been erected by FM but we see more evidence of the ancient Stark’s skill at stone masonry in the crypts of Winterfell – the stone statues of the Kings going back thousands of years. Winterfell also boasts carved stone gargoyles so weathered by time they are barely recognizable now, definitely ancient and otherwise no where to be found except on Dragonstone, where they are associated with the advanced civilization of the Valyrians. There are also the iron swords placed on the laps of the Kings of Winter, some so ancient they’ve rusted away, also suggesting iron was forged at Winterfell long before the Andals came.

So, if I had to take a guess at ancient Stark ancestry, the Rhoynar / proto-Rhoynar would be my choice. According to  tWoiaF, the Rhoynish civilization was as storied and ancient as the Old Empire of Ghis. They appear to have been way ahead of the FM in many respects, notably for beautiful and advanced architecture and iron-working. And their water witches could make "deserts bloom", a reminder of Garth, the agricultual "god."

The name “Stark” has so many synonyms that can be used to describe stone, - “rigid,” “hard,” “rugged,” “stern” and “strong,” -  fitting for a family (former) builders.  

[SaffronLady]

8 hours ago, Evolett said:

This thread seems to have completely veered off-topic .... perhaps we can get back on track. 

It would have been less easier to get off track if OP quoted from the books instead of making a theory by historical analogy, but this is a Tradecraft thread, so this was kind of expected.

[sweetsunray]

13 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Based on the European historical concepts of these cultures not the actual cultures.

Actually agreed.