Edmure: good, bad, or neither?

[Arthur Peres]

21 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Frankly, if it wasn't for Stannis, I'd say Edmure did the absolute right thing. Robb was wreaking havoc upon the Westerlands, which means Tywin had no choice but to go back and deal with him. But Edmure was able to defend the fords against every attack Tywin sent, trapping him on the wrong side of the river. 

Even for a Stark fan like me, I think it's debatable whether Robb would have been able to ambush Tywin on his own turf, but every day that Edmure stalled Tywin was another day that he could plunder the west and diminish Tywin's reputation. Edmure had no way of knowing that Tywin would have been able to easily turn back and defend King's Landing from Stannis, let alone create a new alliance with the Tyrells via Littlefinger (which by the way, holy hell did Littlefinger screw over the Starks and Tully's at every turn. Did he really think he'd ever win Catelyn over after all the evil he did?).

You can argue all day whether Edmure's victory at the Fords was the disaster that Robb made it out to be, but I don't think it's fair to blame Edmure for the negative consequences. Those were beyond his control, and he couldn't have anticipated them unless he had the readers' knowledge.

The point I was making is that Edmure was not thinking in protecting Robb, he was not thinking of the orders he had to follow, he was moving based on pride and the text let that very clear. 

And the only constant we have on Edmure is that on military matters he always makes the wrong choice.

At the start of the war he blundered by spreading his force, than he makes another mistake in sending 2 outnumbered vassals against Jaime, than tries to face Jaime before his forces are assembled, than later on after being rescued by Robb he pressured him to let the riverlords return to their lands weakening Robb, and at last the fords.

[Arthur Peres]

On 8/13/2023 at 10:23 PM, Alester Florent said:

If you're at war, the enemy is manoeuvring close to you and you believe you can confront them on favourable terms, you do so. In particular, Robb had told Edmure to hold Riverrun (a no-brainer) and Tywin was advancing west, towards Riverrun. If Edmure allowed Tywin to reach Riverrun's walls when he had an opportunity to defeat him in the field, that's poor generalship and while fulfilling the letter of Robb's orders is doing so in a stupid way.

The glory of defeating Tywin, well, sure, who wouldn't want that? And a reputation for success on the field is important in Westerosi society anyway. Defeating Tywin is good for the Riverlands, good for Edmure, and so far as Edmure knows, good for Robb (even if this wasn't the uppermost consideration in his mind) - indeed, defeating Tywin is the entire objective of the Riverlands campaign!

I really don't think Edmure can be legitimately criticised for taking Tywin on when he did.

 

The only reasonable argument Edmure gave to defend his actions were the terrain. The rest of the text let it very clear that is not a good decision.

And the most important detail, Edmure tell us his goals, and he failed in every single one.

“Yes, but once the castle falls, Lord Tywin will have no safe retreat. My own levies will defend the fords of Red Fork against his crossing. If he attacks across the river, he’ll end as Rhaegar did when he tried to cross the Trident. If he holds back, he’ll be caught between Riverrun and Harrenhal, and when Robb returns from the west we can finish him for good and all.”

Tywin was alive by the end of it, was able to retreat, and was not trapped between Riverrun and Harenhall.

Edmure is a good guy, but I don't get the fandom trying to potrait him as competent... the text let very clear that he isn't.

Edmure falls for Tywin's trap in every move in AGoT. Edmure keeps making mistakes when the Lannisters invaded him. Then in a ACoK Edmure pressures Robb to return the riverlords to their lands, later on Jaime almost escaped because Edmure went whoring, and the final nail was the battle of the fords.

Edmure is always making the wrong move for the right reason.

 

 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

The point I was making is that Edmure was not thinking in protecting Robb, he was not thinking of the orders he had to follow, he was moving based on pride and the text let that very clear. 

And the only constant we have on Edmure is that on military matters he always makes the wrong choice.

At the start of the war he blundered by spreading his force, than he makes another mistake in sending 2 outnumbered vassals against Jaime, than tries to face Jaime before his forces are assembled, than later on after being rescued by Robb he pressured him to let the riverlords return to their lands weakening Robb, and at last the fords.

He was arguably doing it to protect the smallfolk. He makes it clear enough that he wants to protect his people. He's already seen Tywin's forces destroy much of the Riverlands, why would he allow more of them to cross his territory again?

[John Suburbs]

On 8/11/2023 at 2:20 PM, James Steller said:

Frankly, I think Edmure is an underrated figure in the series. He appears to be one of the precious few nobles who actually cares about the plight of the smallfolk. He is willing to go the extra mile to protect as many of his people as he can. Admittedly, this leads to mixed results, but to say he is incompetent feels unjust. He is not a prodigy like Robb, nor a Machiavellian like Tywin. He seems like an ordinary guy doing the best that he can to uphold his own values. And let us not forget that he is the only person in the series who can say that they defeated Tywin on the battlefield.

And I will not discuss his appalling treatment in the abomination, by the way. 

Good guy but a bad leader. He couldn't even see how he was gaslit into marrying Roslyn.

[Alester Florent]

20 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Good guy but a bad leader. He couldn't even see how he was gaslit into marrying Roslyn.

To be fair, he seemed happy about it once he met her... at least until the wedding night was over and he discovered the Freys had murdered his king and his sister and a whole bunch of his friends, and then threw him in prison.

Although Hoster had always thought the Freys not good enough for his children, when one looks around, it does look like slim pickings in terms of eligible brides for Edmure, especially when you take into account that the North and Riverlands have severed themselves from the rest of Westeros politically. Among the Tullys' other leading vassals, only the Brackens have daughters of age and in the main branch. Daughters of many of the more prominent houses of the North are also thin on the ground: no Boltons, Lockes, Glovers or Dustins.

If Edmure is going to marry for political advantage within the kingdom, then, and to someone of roughly appropriate rank, the obvious choices are Alys Karstark or a Frey, and that's the case irrespective of the cock-ups that saw both houses desert Robb. In fact marrying a Frey does solve a problem anyway, because they are powerful, and it should take the edge off Walder's resentment.

Dangling him as a prospect outside the kingdom to cement an alliance isn't a bad idea, but in that case they need an alliance to cement. Balon and Lysa have turned Robb down so those kingdoms are a non-starter, the Martells are playing their own game, and everyone else is sworn to Joffrey. If a deal were eventually brokered with the Iron Throne then perhaps a marriage to Cersei(!) could follow, but that's a pretty horrendous prospect in itself.

Edmure's main objection to marrying a Frey seemed to be that she wouldn't be hot enough.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Alester Florent

[SeanF]

Attacking Tywin was correct.  Napoleon expected his generals to march to the sound of gunfire, without awaiting orders to that effect.

He had an opportunity to harm him, and he took it.  It was incumbent on Robb to order him not to attack, if that was his intention.  Really, Robb and the Blackfish gaslit Edmure, pinning the blame for the failure of their strategy upon him.

[astarkchoice]

13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Attacking Tywin was correct.  Napoleon expected his generals to march to the sound of gunfire, without awaiting orders to that effect.

He had an opportunity to harm him, and he took it.  It was incumbent on Robb to order him not to attack, if that was his intention.  Really, Robb and the Blackfish gaslit Edmure, pinning the blame for the failure of their strategy upon him.

This

Add in the fact robbs force was much smaller than tywins and he and the northmen were rampaging across the westerlands

edmures most logical conclusion was that he needed to protect robb and let him comtinue to bleed the westerlands white rather than the actual plan of robb somehow surpise attacking tywin in his own backyard.

[Arthur Peres]

22 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

He was arguably doing it to protect the smallfolk. He makes it clear enough that he wants to protect his people. He's already seen Tywin's forces destroy much of the Riverlands, why would he allow more of them to cross his territory again?

Tywin was leaving the Riverlands, Catelyn tell us that they don't need to confront him.

Edmure does not talk about protecting the smallfolk. He talks about glory, revenge and advantage of terrain.

[Arthur Peres]

10 hours ago, SeanF said:

He had an opportunity to harm him, and he took it.  It was incumbent on Robb to order him not to attack, if that was his intention.  Really, Robb and the Blackfish gaslit Edmure, pinning the blame for the failure of their strategy upon him.

Robb never gaslight Edmure. He praises him in front of his lords and later on is undestandable pissed that he pretty much lost the war. And the orders were clear, "hold Riverrun".

Robb calls him out for disobeying his orders of staying on the defensive, Edmure does not contest that and we know that he wanted to go to the offensive because we read his reasoning.

I get that the fandom likes Edmure, but he wasn't correct, the text before the battle show us his motivation being almost petty, and his plan makes almost no sense considering that he is waiting for Robb to help him trap Tywin, while he does not have the means to comunicate with Robb. And the aftermatch is pretty much their side losing the war. And Edmure track record at that point was him making one mistake after another. The Fords was just the last example.

Robb is not a mastermind that will manipulate his vassals into doing what he wants. When he tries that is very childsh like when he "threatened" Catelyn of sending Greatjon to deal with Renly. He is very foward with his intentions when he commands them.

The only defense of Edmures actions is that the terrain allowed him to challenge Tywin in a somewhat advantage even when outnumbered 2 to 1, and he was proven right since he held the position. Tactical victory, strategic defeat.

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

To be fair, he seemed happy about it once he met her... at least until the wedding night was over and he discovered the Freys had murdered his king and his sister and a whole bunch of his friends, and then threw him in prison.

Although Hoster had always thought the Freys not good enough for his children, when one looks around, it does look like slim pickings in terms of eligible brides for Edmure, especially when you take into account that the North and Riverlands have severed themselves from the rest of Westeros politically. Among the Tullys' other leading vassals, only the Brackens have daughters of age and in the main branch. Daughters of many of the more prominent houses of the North are also thin on the ground: no Boltons, Lockes, Glovers or Dustins.

If Edmure is going to marry for political advantage within the kingdom, then, and to someone of roughly appropriate rank, the obvious choices are Alys Karstark or a Frey, and that's the case irrespective of the cock-ups that saw both houses desert Robb. In fact marrying a Frey does solve a problem anyway, because they are powerful, and it should take the edge off Walder's resentment.

Dangling him as a prospect outside the kingdom to cement an alliance isn't a bad idea, but in that case they need an alliance to cement. Balon and Lysa have turned Robb down so those kingdoms are a non-starter, the Martells are playing their own game, and everyone else is sworn to Joffrey. If a deal were eventually brokered with the Iron Throne then perhaps a marriage to Cersei(!) could follow, but that's a pretty horrendous prospect in itself.

Edmure's main objection to marrying a Frey seemed to be that she wouldn't be hot enough.

Yes, he got swayed by a pretty face in the end, and paid the price for it.

But he failed to recognize the obvious when this choice was presented to him: he did not screw up. He did exactly as he was commanded to do: defend Riverrun and protect Robb's rear. Robb and the Blackfish are lying about all of this to gaslight Ed into taking the fall for Robb's mistake with Jeyne. There was no plan to lure Tywin into the west. That's absurd. Edmure did not prevent Tywin from doing that because Tywin was never going to cross the red fork anyway. Those skirmishes were just feints to goad Stannis into attacking King's Landing where Tywin could smash him unawares. 

A more observant lord would have seen all this, but Ed didn't.

[James Steller]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, he got swayed by a pretty face in the end, and paid the price for it.

But he failed to recognize the obvious when this choice was presented to him: he did not screw up. He did exactly as he was commanded to do: defend Riverrun and protect Robb's rear. Robb and the Blackfish are lying about all of this to gaslight Ed into taking the fall for Robb's mistake with Jeyne. There was no plan to lure Tywin into the west. That's absurd. Edmure did not prevent Tywin from doing that because Tywin was never going to cross the red fork anyway. Those skirmishes were just feints to goad Stannis into attacking King's Landing where Tywin could smash him unawares. 

A more observant lord would have seen all this, but Ed didn't.

No, I don’t think that’s accurate. How could Tywin would have known when Stannis would attack King’s Landing? He would have had to know everything the readers know, and the readers themselves were surprised by Stannis’ shadowbaby plan to take over Renly’s army and kill Cortnay Penrose. Tywin must have figured that he’d have weeks while Stannis besieged Storm’s End. Nobody could have guessed that the castle would fall that quickly.

[sifth]

Better question, without the help of the River Lords, how could Robb stand a chance against Tywin. Don't get me wrong, Tywin lost a lot of his men during his battles with Robb's armies, but Tywin still had 20 thousand men, which should have easily outnumbered Robb's forces. Remember he only took half of his Northernmen into the West with him; the other half were in Roose's command. Robb mentions fighting Tywin, on ground of their choosing, but shouldn't Tywin know the lay of the land better than Robb, given the fact that it is his own home turf?

[The Duck and the Field]

On 8/13/2023 at 9:23 PM, Alester Florent said:

If you're at war, the enemy is manoeuvring close to you and you believe you can confront them on favourable terms, you do so. In particular, Robb had told Edmure to hold Riverrun (a no-brainer) and Tywin was advancing west, towards Riverrun. If Edmure allowed Tywin to reach Riverrun's walls when he had an opportunity to defeat him in the field, that's poor generalship and while fulfilling the letter of Robb's orders is doing so in a stupid way.

The glory of defeating Tywin, well, sure, who wouldn't want that? And a reputation for success on the field is important in Westerosi society anyway. Defeating Tywin is good for the Riverlands, good for Edmure, and so far as Edmure knows, good for Robb (even if this wasn't the uppermost consideration in his mind) - indeed, defeating Tywin is the entire objective of the Riverlands campaign!

I really don't think Edmure can be legitimately criticised for taking Tywin on when he did.

The thing about this is that I think that George actually did want the reader to think of this as Edmure being somewhat hotheaded. He just accidentally wrote a situation in which Edmure did the right thing with the information presented to him; that's how I interpret it. To me, it's a rare moment in which I feel there is a disconnect between what the author is attempting to convey and what the story actually presents.

Edited August 16, 2023 by The Duck and the Field

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

Guys, please stop defending and praising Edmure. I can't like all of your replies ♥♥♥♥

[Alester Florent]

50 minutes ago, sifth said:

Better question, without the help of the River Lords, how could Robb stand a chance against Tywin. Don't get me wrong, Tywin lost a lot of his men during his battles with Robb's armies, but Tywin still had 20 thousand men, which should have easily outnumbered Robb's forces. Remember he only took half of his Northernmen into the West with him; the other half were in Roose's command. Robb mentions fighting Tywin, on ground of their choosing, but shouldn't Tywin know the lay of the land better than Robb, given the fact that it is his own home turf?

Robb's army is much faster than Tywin's, being largely comprised of cavalry, so he can outmanoeuvre him and avoid battle until he finds ground favourable to him, or until Tywin slips up and presents him with an opportunity for an attack like at Riverrun or Oxcross. Grey Wind and his magic pathfinding abilities would presumably be useful; Robb may also have hoped to win allies among the Westerlanders, as he (thought he) did with the Westerlings and Spicers. And if no opportunity presented itself he could retreat back to the Golden Tooth and bottle Tywin back up in the west, cutting him off from KL completely.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

Robb's army is much faster than Tywin's, being largely comprised of cavalry, so he can outmanoeuvre him and avoid battle until he finds ground favourable to him, or until Tywin slips up and presents him with an opportunity for an attack like at Riverrun or Oxcross. Grey Wind and his magic pathfinding abilities would presumably be useful; Robb may also have hoped to win allies among the Westerlanders, as he (thought he) did with the Westerlings and Spicers. And if no opportunity presented itself he could retreat back to the Golden Tooth and bottle Tywin back up in the west, cutting him off from KL completely.

Yea, but I doubt he'd be very successful. All of the castles are loyal to Tywin. So are Lannisport and Casterly Rock. It's basically Robb trying to beat Tywin on his own home turf, which isn't something I'd recommend, especially with Robb only using about 1/3 of his army.

[Alester Florent]

13 minutes ago, sifth said:

Yea, but I doubt he'd be very successful. All of the castles are loyal to Tywin. So are Lannisport and Casterly Rock. It's basically Robb trying to beat Tywin on his own home turf, which isn't something I'd recommend, especially with Robb only using about 1/3 of his army.

He might not succeed in winning the allegiance of any westerlords - although he does! The male Westerlings seem sincere in their alliance with Robb, especially Raynald - but we have a precedent for mobile forces causing havoc in foreign lands, one set by Tywin himself with his "hellhounds". Gregor, Amory and Vargo are able to seize towns and villages, launch ambushes, and generally campaign successfully in the Riverlands and between them they have a fraction of Robb's numbers.

Luring Tywin onto ground of Robb's choosing will not be easy. Tywin is a shrewd commander who knows the Westerlands well. But by bleeding the Westerlands in the way that Tywin has bled the Riverlands, Robb can put pressure on him (and his junior commanders) to try to force the issue and make a mistake.

I don't think it's a bad plan. It would just have been better if he'd, you know, told Edmure about it, especially given that Edmure's cooperation, even if only passively, was largely required in order for the plan to succeed!

[Arthur Peres]

8 hours ago, sifth said:

Better question, without the help of the River Lords, how could Robb stand a chance against Tywin. Don't get me wrong, Tywin lost a lot of his men during his battles with Robb's armies, but Tywin still had 20 thousand men, which should have easily outnumbered Robb's forces. Remember he only took half of his Northernmen into the West with him; the other half were in Roose's command. Robb mentions fighting Tywin, on ground of their choosing, but shouldn't Tywin know the lay of the land better than Robb, given the fact that it is his own home turf?

 

He does not need to beat Tywin, he just needs Tywin out of position.

Tywin was in the perfect position in Harenhall.

From his position we are told that he can defend KL from the Baratheon threat, he is in the way between Robb and Joffrey, he can stop Roose and Robb/Edmure to link up their strenght, and he can attack the Riverlords like he did against poor kid lord Darry.

But if Tywin is in the west chasing Robb, it does not matter if he wins his battle... he is out of position to do anything else. Roose and Edmure can link up. The Riverlands are secured, Stannis can attack KL. 

Tywin forcing his march for days from the Greenfork to Riverrun was still days too late to help Jaime, how long would take for him to march a much long jorney to West, chase down Robb, defeat him and them return to the Riverlands ? He would be way too late to do anything.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Arthur Peres

[sifth]

16 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

He does not need to beat Tywin, he just needs Tywin out of position.

Tywin was in the perfect position in Harenhall.

From his position we are told that he can defend KL from the Baratheon threat, he is in the way between Robb and Joffrey, he can stop Roose and Robb/Edmure to link up their strenght, and he can attack the Riverlords like he did against poor kid lord Darry.

But if Tywin is in the west chasing Robb, it does not matter if he wins his battle... he is out of position to do anything else. Roose and Edmure can link up. The Riverlands are secured, Stannis can attack KL. 

Tywin forcing his march for days from the Greenfork to Riverrun was still days too late to help Jaime, how long would take for him to march a much long jorney to West, chase down Robb, defeat him and them return to the Riverlands ? He would be way too late to do anything.

Wouldn't the Tyrell's just save Kings Landing, without Tywin's forces? They still had the largest army in play and the element of surprise. I'm sorry, but so long as the Tyrell's take Littlefinger's deal, Stannis still loses. Tywin might be trapped in the West, but how exactly is Robb suppose to plan a way to link up with his other two armies, with Tywin on his tail in the West?

[Arthur Peres]

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

Wouldn't the Tyrell's just save Kings Landing, without Tywin's forces? They still had the largest army in play and the element of surprise. I'm sorry, but so long as the Tyrell's take Littlefinger's deal, Stannis still loses. Tywin might be trapped in the West, but how exactly is Robb suppose to plan a way to link up with his other two armies, with Tywin on his tail in the West?

 

They might, but maybe they don't.

There is a point to be made that the Tyrells had their forces close to the bay in KL, but they never informed the defense of the city, they waited for Tywin even thought they could be the saviours of the city and get more prestige if they did by themselfs.

Also they sent men for Tywin and waited for him to join them, if they wait even a day more, KL falls. 

and even after Blackwater with the war pretty much won, the Lannisters were still worried that the Tyrells might join Robb:

Quote

Cersei looked at their uncle in disbelief. “Sansa is my hostage. She goes nowhere without my leave.”

“Leave you must perforce grant, should Lord Tyrell ask,” their father pointed out. “To refuse him would be tantamount to declaring that we did not trust him. He would take offense.”

“Let him. What do we care?”

Bloody fool, thought Tyrion. “Sweet sister,” he explained patiently, “offend Tyrell and you offend Redwyne, Tarly, Rowan, and Hightower as well, and perhaps start them wondering whether Robb Stark might not be more accommodating of their desires.”

“I will not have the rose and the direwolf in bed together,” declared Lord Tywin. “We must forestall."

If with the war won, they still worry about them trading sides, what garantee do they have that they will be rescued when everything is against them?