Floki of the Ironborn Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 4 minutes ago, Alester Florent said: I think by conventional definitions, the magic used to bring Beric back to life was at least arguably white magic. The shadow assassins are undoubtedly black magic. Are we really regressing to the use of those terms? maesternewton 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, James Steller said: I’m no fan of Mel but her “Perverted black magic” I am not referring to the magic of the Red Priests in general (though we don't know if Melisandre can perform the Kiss of Life anyway), but specifically to the 'production' of the shadow assassins. We see it happen through Davos' POV and it appears to be a perversion of the creation of a baby. It drains the 'father's' life energy, the baby's only purpose is to kill another, and it only lives for this purpose, 'dying' soon after. Edit: I would also speculate that due to the Shadow Assassins Stannis is now unable to have anymore children, due to the theme of sacrificing fertility for magic that seems to crop up. 17 minutes ago, James Steller said: Also, baby brother? He was still Stannis' younger brother though... Edited August 12, 2023 by Craving Peaches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: Dragons are boring Preach it sister! Or should I say, peach? Whatever, dragons are boring. The Bard of Banefort 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said: Are we really regressing to the use of those terms? Come on though, I know there is some nuance but the Shadow Assassins are not one of those parts. Just look at how Davos talks about them. The only person who thinks they are good is Melisandre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floki of the Ironborn Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 Just now, Craving Peaches said: Come on though, I know there is some nuance but the Shadow Assassins are not one of those parts. Just look at how Davos talks about them. The only person who thinks they are good is Melisandre. I'm talking about the use of the terms "white magic" and "black magic" which you, James, and Alester are throwing around. Those are problematic terms of an older era, and the sooner we abandon them into the history books, the better. maesternewton 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 Just now, Floki of the Ironborn said: Those are problematic terms of an older era, and the sooner we abandon them into the history books, the better. Why are they bad? I thought they were standard fantasy terms... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floki of the Ironborn Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 Just now, Craving Peaches said: Why are they bad? I thought they were standard fantasy terms... White magic meaning good and black magic meaning bad? Do I need to spell it out what the implications of those terms are? It's unpleasant and archaic. maesternewton 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 (edited) My unpopular opinion is Azor Ahai is the dumbest prophesy in the book. Also, the wights aren't made by the Others, some other force is at work on them. Edited August 12, 2023 by LongRider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 Daario murdered those children on posts outside Meereen. And yes, he is Euron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 4 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said: Are we really regressing to the use of those terms? Regressing? Traditionally, both in real life and in fantasy, white magic is used to help or heal others, black magic is used solely for the benefit of the one wielding it. It's a little more complicated than that but that's the gist. In any case, the elephant in the room as regards the shadow assassins is the second one. The first one,there are those who think Renly had it coming and that Stannis was justified by necessity as he had no other way of defeating Renly. I disagree, but let's set that aside. But what did poor Cortnay Penrose do wrong? He followed the orders of his sworn lord, and when his lord was murdered, he refused to switch sides to the man he suspected (rightly) of killing him, while also protecting his lord's heir presumptive. Stannis had a number of options for dealing with him, including trial by combat against one of his own champions, some of whom would surely have been more than a match for Ser Cortnay. He's a good and honourable man, even if he's on the wrong side, how about we give him the opportunity for a good and honourable death? What would Stannis lose by doing so? Nope, shadowbaby to the face! We can't take any chances with this guy who's letting awkward things like "duty" and "honour" get in the way of what Stannis wants. And why did Stannis need Storm's End anyway? Was it strategically critical? No, he goes straight home to Dragonstone and continues to use that as his base of operations. Does he need it to win over the Stormlords? No, he already has their allegiance. The only reason he needs Storm's End is to lay hands on Edric, his true nephew... and he needs him so that Mel can sacrifice him, either a bit at a time or all at once, to further his own goals to become king. There's no justification. I say without hyperbole that we're in pretty much the same ballpark as "Cersei torturing the Blue Bard" here. ... If we're comparing the shadow assassins to Beric's resurrections - and I believe the differences to be self-evident - Beric uses the gift of multiple lives to repeatedly risk (if not outright sacrifice) his own life to try to save the lives of others, knowing each time that he's losing something and that there's a risk he won't come back but taking the chance because the chance is there. Stannis uses the shadow assassins to avoid the risk of harm to himself. It's almost the opposite approach. Craving Peaches 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 10 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said: White magic meaning good and black magic meaning bad? Do I need to spell it out what the implications of those terms are? It's unpleasant and archaic. Not everything is about race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 9 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said: White magic meaning good and black magic meaning bad? Do I need to spell it out what the implications of those terms are? It's unpleasant and archaic. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think about it in that way at all, in the same way I don't, for example, think about chess in that way. SeanF, the trees have eyes and Alester Florent 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floki of the Ironborn Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 1 minute ago, Alester Florent said: Traditionally, both in real life and in fantasy, white magic is used to help or heal others, black magic is used solely for the benefit of the one wielding it. It's a little more complicated than that but that's the gist. And that is a tradition which I'd happily see die out. Especially in a genre which has constantly suffered from racist gate-keepers. Not saying you're one of them, but things like those terms just serve to enforce the status quo which still causes non-white actors grief when they step into 'traditionally white' roles in fantasy. maesternewton 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steller Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said: And that is a tradition which I'd happily see die out. Especially in a genre which has constantly suffered from racist gate-keepers. Not saying you're one of them, but things like those terms just serve to enforce the status quo which still causes non-white actors grief when they step into 'traditionally white' roles in fantasy. I won’t deny that racism plagues fantasy, but I’ve seen no evidence of racism on this forum. So while I absolutely see your point and I admire your willingness to stand up for it, I think your zeal might be misplaced in this case. Edited August 12, 2023 by James Steller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 Stannis wont burn Shireen and assuming she does burn, it will be Mel who does it; possibly as a means to bring Jon Snow back to life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 2 hours ago, Alester Florent said: GRRM said there was speculation that Aegon had seen the threat of the Others coming. That's very different from confirming the version of the dream-prophecy we see in the show, or even confirming that Aegon had a grander purpose than "conquer everything". Showrunners invent things all the time, to explain plot points that aren't clear on screen, to simplify things, or just to better reflect their vision for the characters. To pick the most obvious thing from the show that isn't in the books, Laenor Velaryon's being alive is a potentially massive change, because it means Rhaenyra's marriage to Daemon is invalid and therefore Aegon III and Viserys II are bastards. I think it is unlikely we will see that come up, but it could happen. And that's something that either the showrunners invented, or GRRM came up with it as a show-only event. I don't think we can take Aegon's dream as a book event with relevance to the historic or ongoing book plot until and unless it appears in print, because there's a decent chance that in the books it never happened. Best we can say is "maybe Aegon had a grander vision whereby he considered it necessary for the greater good to conquer the Seven Kingdoms" but we could say that before too. So tell me why Rhaenys declared Aegon as "King of Westeros and Shield of his people", tell me the meaning of "Shield of his people" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maegor_the_Cool Posted August 12, 2023 Author Share Posted August 12, 2023 4 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: So tell me why Rhaenys declared Aegon as "King of Westeros and Shield of his people", tell me the meaning of "Shield of his people" You mean a foreigner, who just conquered a foreign land, wants the people to view him as a shield? A savior? Huh my guy it was propaganda lol Craving Peaches 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 6 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: So tell me why Rhaenys declared Aegon as "King of Westeros and Shield of his people", tell me the meaning of "Shield of his people" Flowery version of a standard title, like "Protector of the Realm", for PR purposes, as Domeric says above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Lord Domeric Bolton said: You mean a foreigner, who just conquered a foreign land, wants the people to view him as a shield? A savior? Huh my guy it was propaganda lol Brandon of the bloody blade slaughtered the children of the forest and created a field soaked of their blood, Nymeria was an invader too, but "TaRgArYeN BaD Becuzz InVaDeHhhh!!!" has no sense in Asoiaf. I understand you are fan of some Westerosi house, Targaryens invaded for the dream, the content in Hotd is not invented by the producer, Shield of his people refers to the fact that dragons are the only creatures, able to reject the Others Edited August 12, 2023 by KingAerys_II Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: Seven Gods, Seven Kingdoms Stannis is an average general Some people have irrational dislike of the Faith of the Seven and Andals (and it is possibly based off them not liking the Catholic Church, in all seriousness I have seen people come up with ridiculous conspiracy theories just like real life ones about the Catholic Church, it was not on this site however) Poisoned Locusts were for Strong Belwas, to rig the games If Aegon hadn't invaded, the Stormlands would have experienced a resurgence under Queen Argella Dragons are boring I find Victarion incredibly amusing and I hope he lives long enough to kill Euron If Aegon hadn't invaded, Argella would have been a Hoare's salt wife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.