Recommended: new 'Wall Origin' theory

[Wizz-The-Smith]

4 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

@Evolett Hey we found another strangling sphinx!

Definitely a parallel, yes. The secret door particularly. Glad you spotted the TNT ingredient - nitre - as well 

 

Harbours can and do conceal, and so do trees. Chambers dictionary might have something interest for you here, which I'm sure you knew already in the back of your mind:

arbor¹ /ärˈbər/ 

noun

A tree, esp in scientific use

ORIGIN: L

 

GRRM even uses The Arbor as a place name in the Reach (Arbor Gold - that famous white wine which so often accompanies lies).

 

So a White Harbour / White Arbor motif would seem to also fit a combined tree/Wall symbol. Come to think of it, so does the name Highgarden ...

 

 

I've got to go bed, but before I do I just want to say this is brilliant!  

[SaffronLady]

6 hours ago, Kal-L said:

Exactly, very interesting. It's fascinating to think that King Argilac decided to met Orys and Rhaenys on the battlefield to avoid Harren the Black's fate, when it's very likely that SE was shielded with the same wards as "the Wall" and that Meraxes might have had the same reaction as Silverwing later had when Queen Alysanne tried to pass the Wall.

It might be that Argilac himself doesn't know Storm's End was warded/the wards of Storm's End might work against dragons.

Speaking of which, why did Balerion fly so high up in the sky he became "like a fly against the moon" before burning Harrenhal? Was Harrenhal somehow warded, or was that just dragon instinct kicking through, or was this a "the moon cracked" re-enactment?

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, Kal-L said:

Exactly, very interesting. It's fascinating to think that King Argilac decided to met Orys and Rhaenys on the battlefield to avoid Harren the Black's fate, when it's very likely that SE was shielded with the same wards as "the Wall" and that Meraxes might have had the same reaction as Silverwing later had when Queen Alysanne tried to pass the Wall.

"Conveniently", Queen Argella's men sold her to the Targaryens before any attempt at taking Storm's End started... Anyway, I don't think I'm being bold when I speculate that at some point Daenerys will suffer the same reaction from her dragons as Queen Alysanne did, this time while trying to take one of the others building of Bran the Builder (maybe Winterfell ?)

I have wondered the same thing too for about a year already Yes, that was very convenient.

I have tried to check in Fire & Blood whether we have any evidence that Targs had their dragons fly into the inner walls of Storm's End. We know that Aemon Targaryen and Lucerys Velaryon visited Storm's End and they had their dragons with them. But there is no resolution either way that these dragons were inside the curtain walls of SE. We only know that the Lord Baratheon begged Aemon not to confront Lucerys physically at SE itself. And they flew off, with Lucerys fleeing and Aemon chasing him on Vhagar. It is of course doubtful that Vhagar could ever fit in. But Luce's dragon was a young, much smaller dragon. The current show doesn't have to care about that of course, since the abomination disregarded the Wall's ward altogether.

I do think it's interesting that Alaric asked Alysanne not to bring her dragon inside Winterfell. Though I think the ward is on the entrance of the crypts, which is the entrance into the hollow hill. Since I believe Brandon didn't build the First Keep, but his later descendants, I therefore don't see any reason for Brandon to ward some wall around it even. The cave system beneath the godswood is huge! It goes really deep, many levels, and that fits with the hot springs. There are two geographical causes for hot springs: volcanic activity bringing magma through the crust near the surface, or fissures that go through the crust and reach the magma beneath it. The maesters prove they know about the first reason. In fact, they believe that is the sole cause, because that is what they observed for the proven volcanic areas. But in relation to Winterfell's hot springs they can only mention the smallfolk's claim that there must be a "dragon" deep down beneath the crypts of WF. In other words, aside from that dragon being Brandon, this is our clue to go for the deep fissure cause, especially because if the maesters had any record of volcanic eruption tales at WF they'd use it. So, there's a huge cave system beneath the heart of WF and it is wide too. Bran remarks in his mind that the crypts extend beyond the present WF perimeter. And current WF on the surface is huge! It has not just 1 hill within its walls. It has several hills and valleys. The godswood alone is 3 acres and the buildings were built around those 3 acres. And we have a re-enactment of Beric as symbolical Brandon inside a hollow hill explaining how the brotherhood that protects the realm while abandoning their banners/sigils while sheltering a lot of smallfolk there. So, that's how Brandon and the proto-NW and the other people lived beneath WF during the Long Night. And it's huge, so basically an underground city. Think Casterly Rock, but all underground.

I'm not even mentioning CR without cause. Arianne visits a cave in rainwood and sees how natural pillars (stalactites and stalacmites fused together) have been carved into shaped faces. And that reminds me of the pillars and statues in the WF crypts. Add the fact that CR is a palace with halls, etc, and we realize that the Starks just ended up recreating the appearance of the lower levels of the cave which would look like what Arianne sees in that cave in rainwood.

So, Brandon would have warded the entrance of the cave, just like the entrance of Bloodraven's cave is warded, because that would keep out the Others.

I also speculated about the possibility for Dany being put to the test with a dragon at SE, in an Aegon and Arianne plot. But now I realize that the ward may not be as powerful anymore or even may have been destroyed, because Mel burned the weirwood. Sure there might still be roots, but if no greenseer leads his or hers second life in there, it might not be enough. Perhaps the ward is no more at SE

So, I guess the ward of WF will be put to the test when the Others attack WF.

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by sweetsunray

[sweetsunray]

56 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

It might be that Argilac himself doesn't know Storm's End was warded/the wards of Storm's End might work against dragons.

Speaking of which, why did Balerion fly so high up in the sky he became "like a fly against the moon" before burning Harrenhal? Was Harrenhal somehow warded, or was that just dragon instinct kicking through, or was this a "the moon cracked" re-enactment?

Exactly! Argilac didn't know about the ward. It's a forgotten knowledge. He just thought that Brandon was an architect and that the miracle was the round wall. And if he was a cultural Andal he probably ended up buying the propaganda and believed SE was built by Andals.

Of course we don't know whether a ward can stop a dragon's flame. It may prevent a dragon from flying across, but a dragon may still burn it with a fly by.

[sweetsunray]

On 8/24/2023 at 4:40 AM, Seams said:

Dunk's sigil includes a big tree and a comet, symbolic of a flaming sword. Ser Arlan and Ser Bennis tell him he is thick as a castle wall. So the point may be that kings guard members personify walls, but they are also able to cross other walls. 

Kingsguard are also called "white swords", aka Dawn.

The "scales" is then a reference to dragons.

[sweetsunray]

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Timeline wise, we can place the construction of the Wolf's Den after the Nightfort and Winterfell, since Jon Stark built it to defend from "raiders from the sea"

Yes, the Wolf's Den is a much later construction.

But it certainly is a valid subject for parallel knowledge, because of its name. It functions as a symbolic "birth place of the Starks", even though it's not at WF, etc.

Architecturally it is supposed to remind us of "fused black stone" for example and thus of the base of the Hightower, although obviously the Wolf's Den isn't made of fused black stone: it shows damage of wear and isn't really fused.

Davos (a name of the Dayne King once, and he is lord of rainwood, aka a greenseer reference) goes in Stannis' man (a SE man), but exits a Stark man when he goes in search for Rickon for Manderly. We witness the birth of a wolf. So, that seems another re-enactment of Brandon.

ANYONE WHO HAS THE "LANDS OF ICE AND FIRE" maps: check what I'm saying below. @Wizz-The-Smith

The Wolf's Den lies at the end of the river White Knife (aka Dawn) before the water of the river rushes into the Bite (frost?). The White Knife has 3 rivers feeding it, aka three "branches" come together. The first two, farthest away from Wolf's Den join soon south of Long Lake. Basically it's a river from Long Lake coming together with a stream coming from the Lonely Hills. This joining of the two is already called the White Knife. Then much lower/later a third stream that originates in the Wolfswood joins it.

Sounds to me like two different family branches coming together and the White Knife/White Sword is born (note that this alludes to both Dawn as well as a person (like Lightbringer is both a sword and a reference to a person). When we take a closer look on the map to the stream that joins much later into the White Knife, where it originates in the Wolfswood we notice that it also shows two little streams coming together, and are a mini-copy of the first two: a stream from a lake and a second. It's just at an eschewed angle. So it looks like a mini Long Lake and whatever we have to call what's coming from the Lonely Hills. So, the third stream from the Wolfswood shows us the same White Knife river, just from an eschewed view. It's as if it's saying, we think they started as Wolves, but the big version is the real stuff. If we magnify the mini-version and rotate it, then Winterfell drops right smack on the Lonely Hills.

West of Long Lake we can see an almost vertical mountain range (where the Mountain Clans come from). There's only one other mountain range that is this vertical and in that particular shape of a "spine": the Bone Mountains. And it has a sea east of it that feeds into a river: the Bleeding Sea. In the right location more south east of the Bleeding Sea we have the Mountains of the Morn. In other words: from Wolfswood and Winterfell we go to Long Lake and Loneley to Bleeding Sea and Mountains of the Morn.

Now let's move back from the map of The East (of the Bone Mountains) to that of Westeros and the North in particular. South of the Dreadforth and its Weeping Water river, we see Sheepshead Hills which feeds into the river called Broken Branch. The shape of the river? The same as that of the White Knife (the three streams)

And then I repeat that the Wolf's Den is located at the end of the White Knife.

So we have Winterfell and Starks' origin/founding in connection with Dawn and two places of origin, which is actually a copy of the Great Empire of the Dawn, the Bleeding Sea and the Mountains of Morn(ing) in particular. Then we get the same river much smaller sized east of the White Knife and more south in relation to the Long Lake, and it's basically saying that the Targs of the Valyrians (sheepherders) are a Broken Branch. And then as an extra, much further to the east we have Widow's Watch (aka Dany at Slaver's Bay in comparison to Old Valyria)

• Dawn = Lightbringer
• Starks born out of a union of descendants of Brandon of the Bloody Blade (red lake) and a lonely GEotD descendant (Daynes)
• The Valyrians descendants of the GEotD, and thus so are the Targs, their broken branch
• Dany by herself

Those are all examples on how the Wolf's Den serves to tell us something of the present in relation to the past.

[sweetsunray]

Another thought and insight that comes to mind, that follows from Brandon in the tree that the Gate is part of. Remember how I once proposed the stuff about the Chtonic Cycle about Lyanna as queen of the Underworld, Ned Stark as ruler of the underworld, etc?

The underworld of course are the hollow hills and the living quarters of the greenseers on their weirwood thrones. The mythological references regarding this is just George pointing out that greenseers (in their underworld) are the true kings/protectors of the realm (not just the underworld).

But then we have Lyanna's statue in the halls of the greenseers. So why a "queen of the underworld"? Because she's "in the tree", or rather in the armor of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, or "behind" the "shield of the Laughing Tree". She's a symbolical female greenseer, because as a woman she continues the "family tree" (the Wolf's Den and the river map-stuff of my previous post)

Then think of Ned Stark's "promise me" in relation to Lyanna. If Lyanna is a heart tree and you make promises/vows in front of a heart tree, shouldn't lie to a tree , shouldn't break your promise...

Dun-dun-dun-dun

Ned kept his promise until a fake-raven Luwin counseled him to allow Jon to take the Black and he chose to follow that counsel without revealing Jon's parentage. He thought he had time, but Jon made a binding vow to a tree before he could tell, and so Ned ended up with a broken promise/vow to a tree, and lost his head.

Edited August 25, 2023 by sweetsunray

[KingAerys_II]

Argillac decided to face Orys because a storm made difficult for Meraxes to fly, so he saw a victory chance, however the Queen used the dragon as a spy plane to see the army's disposition and placed the dragon behind the line, so she succeeded in using the dragon, then Orys killed Argillac in single combat, I don't think Storm'End was more solid than the Harrenhal 

Edited August 25, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[sweetsunray]

Back to Brandon, the Wall and trees inside the wall.

Now add the claim that Brandon (or his son) built the Hightower. I don't believe that hystorically the case at all, but George connects the Hightower to Brandon as a clue.

So, what do we know about the Hightower:

• it has a fire beacon, a green (wildfire) one when signaling "war.
• Hightowers claim that you can "see" the Wall from the Hightower
• It's as high or higher than the Wall

What do we know these things are symbolically or stand in for?

• towers stand-in for trees.
• a fire beacon = brandon

Connect this with the Wall and specifically that the Hightower is as tall as the Wall or taller: the Hightower represents the weirwoods in the Wall, particularly the one that became Brandon's final tree at the Black Gate.

Now let's go to WF. Again I don't believe Brandon built the First Keep, but the First Keep stands right next to the entrance into Brandon's "throne and palace" of old (the crypts).

If the Hightower represents the weirwood of which we see a glimpse in with the Black Gate, then the "round" tower of the First Keep with its worn away gargoyles so you can't see what they used to be (we assume wolves, but were they.... enter Dragonstone) is also a stand-in tree.

That's why it's round. To better mimic a tree. It serves as the Stark's "family tree" going back to Brandon, standing right next to the entrance of the crypts where we find all of Brandon's Stark descendants.

The gargoyles can then be compared to the foliage of a tree. So the "dragonstone" (dragon + FM mix again, aka wildfire) gargoyles have been weathered over time that you can't really make out what they used to be anymore. The origins are "weathered", aka "thick grey murky fog of mists of time" idea, because fog and mist = weather. Grey wolves is the end result.

The First Keep's name stands for the First Seal/Preserver, who is Brandon.

The family tree "blew up" from inside out after Ramsay puts WF to the torch, sealing the greenseers in (but they can escape with the help of a giant) and gargoyle debris next to the entrance. George really wants us to visually connect the "family tree" of the first Stark to the crypts, and accentuating the entrance here of the cave system. Ward! The blowing up coincided with Summer seeing a winged serpent above WF. A ghost dragon flew out of the tree that is Brandon. Gives both a clue to his origin, but also what will happen because of Ramsay's choice to destroy the Starks.

Bran's climbing chapter is an absolute treasure trove, with references like Ned telling Bran he's not his son (referring to Brandon the Builder and Jon, a fostered boy/bastard) and that she should not be seen by his (foster) mother (fostering/warding away from the mom, and staying out of Cat's way, or the wife of the uncle). And Brandon and Jon try their very best but don't really fool her, making her turn to "others".

And then Old Nan says the boy climbs too high and is struck down by lightning and the crows peck out his eyes. Jon climbs too high in rank and it's implied that Stannis (storm king, thunder and lightning) has something to do with striking him down and the NW blinding him. Not sure exactly for Brandon, but I think that's probably about greenseeing and Lightbringer. In Brandon's case someone or something damaged at least one of his eyes. Anyhow Bran is not impressed by that story, because there's crow's nests on top of the tower. Crow's nest is a lookout. Brandon could skinchange birds to see. Jon will see with Ghost. The tower here is the broken tower: the broken family tree branch of the Targs as well as GEotD, broken wall, or tree hit by lightning. Might also be clue that Brynden one-eye dies, unable to get into the tree for his second life, but at least he can continue to help via the crow's pet raven.

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His favorite haunt was the broken tower. Once it had been a watchtower, the tallest in Winterfell. A long time ago, a hundred years before even his father had been born, a lightning strike had set it afire. The top third of the structure had collapsed inward, and the tower had never been rebuilt. Sometimes his father sent ratters into the base of the tower, to clean out the nests they always found among the jumble of fallen stones and charred and rotten beams. But no one ever got up to the jagged top of the structure now except for Bran and the crows.

The broken tower is clearly to be taken as a Wall reference here. But a tower is a tree. So, absolutely a reference to the wall actually being trees, and then the Targs set it afire, leading to a partial collapse of the "watch" and the NW was never rebuilt. Sometmes the Starks still sent sons to the Watch, to not just let it completely fall aparte. But only Brandon and Brynden still perform the original duty and work.

Quote

The best way was to start from the godswood, shinny up the tall sentinel, and cross over the armory and the guards hall, leaping roof to roof, barefoot so the guards wouldn't hear you overhead. That brought you up to the blind side of the First Keep, the oldest part of the castle, a squat round fortress that was taller than it looked. Only rats and spiders lived there now but the old stones still made for good climbing. You could go straight up to where the gargoyles leaned out blindly over empty space, and swing from gargoyle to gargoyle, hand over hand, around to the north side. From there, if you really stretched, you could reach out and pull yourself over to the broken tower where it leaned close. The last part was the scramble up the blackened stones to the eyrie, no more than ten feet, and then the crows would come round to see if you'd brought any corn.

Best to start with the godswood, the grove, the heart tree, the weirwood. Then we have a sentinel: a soldier tree, a tree with a greenseer for his second life in it. The armory refers to swords, forge and "arm" (Dorne?) and a guards hall (the White Sword tower?). The First Keep has a blind side, so another blind reference in relation to Brandon.

But Brandon is in the Black Gate weirwood tree at the Nightfort where only rat cooks and spiders live (maw reference imo of the corpse queen = thing that only comes in the night).

The gargoyles (dragons) lean blind over space (flying?). If you swing from dragonlord race to dragonlord race, separated by space and time, "hand" over "hand" you end up North. The Wall reference again with the broken tower.

Then we get a reference to the Eyrie combined with Blackened stones. In the Vale the Arryns of the Eyrie got conflated with a "winged knight" of the First Men0, aka "winged warrior" or a skinchanged raven, namely Bloodraven, who is a "blackwood", a black wood, is a black tree, is a "blackened" weirwood, vilified by Andal propaganda who are the reason why men forgot all and crows/ravens can only say "corn" now.

Edited August 25, 2023 by sweetsunray

[sweetsunray]

On 8/24/2023 at 4:51 AM, Mourning Star said:

I don't buy it, but it's a take.

You don't have to buy it.

But I'll revive the claims about Theon Stark's raid to point out a few things, both about the "source", the alleged structures, the obvious Andal anti-Stark propaganda, and a proposal of what really happened based on a parallel and a well known custom of the Starks in how to deal with a violent enemy trying to take their land

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In the aftermath of his victory, King Theon raised his own fleet and crossed the narrow sea to the shores of Andalos, with Argos's corpse lashed to the prow of his flagship. There, it is said, he took a bloody vengeance, burning a score of villages, capturing three tower houses and a fortified sept, and putting hundreds to the sword. The heads of the slain the Hungry Wolf claimed as prizes, carrying them back to Westeros and planting them on spikes along his own coasts as a warning to other would-be conquerors. (tWoIaF - The North: The Kings of Winter)

Note: Earlier it was mentioned that King Theon Stark made "common cause" with the Boltons. The World Book uses that reference too with the Marsh Kings making common cause with the Starks to defend against would-be-invaders, specifying that this of course occurred before the Neck was annexed by the Starks. So, around the time that the Andals invaded the Vale, several had tried to do so in the North as well at a time that the Boltons were still kings. And Theon Stark made common cause with the Bolton Kings to tackle the invasion. I guess that like King Tyrion III Lannister and King Gerold II Lannister (FM Lannisters of the Rock), they too heard the tales of how Andals used enmities between FM to gain a foothold but instantly betray them. The Corbray takeover of the Fingers is not an admirable tale.

One of the first things that is noticeable that Maester Yandel gives a very unclear source: it is said. He tries to sell it as a "tale". But usually Maester Yandel does clarify when it's a "singer's song", a septon's song or tale, an old wives' tale, a maester who dug up a story in the books of Castle Black, a report from a maester, a ballad, etc. He does not do so in this instance. He just writes "it is said". In other words he either doesn't know the source or he knows the "source" is easily distrusted.

"It is said" classifies the above to explicit "hearsay" without anyone who started the claim.

"It is said" is also a typical expression that is used by gossipers. When someone comes to you and tells you a horrific reveal about someone and starts with "it is said", you know it's gossip. That is why Maester Yandel uses present tense, instead of past tense. It's not an eye witness account from a Northerner who went on this raid, came back and bragged in an inn.

Conclusion 1: Maester Yandel is gossiping like Tansy of the Peach gossips that Catelyn had her way with Jaime with a threesome in his cell in Riverrun all night before she set him free. And at least with Tansy's gossip we know it's some guard of Riverrun who saw Cat enter Jaime's cell with Brienne hours before he escaped. The guard just made up what occurred between, letting his imagination run wild. If we extrapolate this onto the Theon story, we can conclude that Theon Stark did sail for Andalos and that he returned with prizes of which a great many of these prizes may have lost their heads. What happened in between the original gossiper does not know.

Interestingly enough, we have another Gerold Lannister who sort of does something similar as Theon Stark, Gerold the Great. He does not precede the above mentioned Gerold II, but comes at least 13 or 14 kings after Gerold II. Gerold the Great is a Lannister of the Andal dynasty. Andal Ser Joffrey, husband of the daughter of the last FM Lannister dynasty, took the Lannister name and accepted the crown when she had no male sibling. Gerold the Great is a descendant of this Joffrey Lannister. Now, Gerold also went on a raid, a raid of the Iron Islands, and he took one hundred hostages with him, vowing to hang one each time he'd be raided by the Ironborn again. He ended up hanging over 20 of those hostages.

Let's see how Maester Yandel writes about this event, shall we?

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The ultimate indignity came courtesy of Gerold Lannister, King of the Rock. Gerold the Great, as he is remembered in the west, sailed his own fleet to the Iron Islands themselves in a daring raid, taking a hundred ironborn hostages. He kept them in Casterly Rock thereafter, hanging one every time his shores were raided. (tWoIaF - The Iron Islands: Driftwood Crowns)

King Gerold Lannister, known as Gerold the Great, sailed to the Iron Islands and returned with a hundred ironborn hostages, promising to hang one every time the ironmen dared raid his shores. (True to his word, Gerold hanged more than twenty of the hostages). (tWoIaF - The Westerlands)

Hmm, Theon Stark goes on a bloody vengeance, but Gerold the Great on a daring raid.

Hmm, Theon Stark takes a hundred stinking and rotting maggot crawling heads back from Andalos to the North (you wouldn't have wanted to be on board of those), but Gerold the Great took only hostages.

Hmm, Theon Stark planted these heads, which would amount to skulls by then, on spikes to scare off would be Andal conquerers. But Gerold is true to his word when he hangs more than twenty of his hostages.

Come to think of it, what do Starks usually do? Aren't they famous both in the North and beyond for taking or demanding "wards"?

Quote

"Aye, and why not?" Old Flint stomped his cane against the ice. "Wards, we always called them, when Winterfell demanded boys of us, but they were hostages, and none the worse for it."
"None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o' Winter," said The Norrey. "Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o' yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?" (aDwD, Jon XI)

Yet in the end, even the Dreadfort fell before the might of Winterfell, and the last Red King, known to history as Rogar the Huntsman, swore fealty to the King of Winter and sent his sons to Winterfell as hostages, even as the first Andals were crossing the narrow sea in their longships. (tWoIaF - The North: The Kings of Winter)

Maybe George chose to give this raid story to a Theon Stark, because Ironborn Theon Greyjoy was a hostage and ward, as a clue to see through the malicious gossip that maester Yandel spreads?

Theon Stark didn't take rotting heads back. He took hostages in Andalos, took them home with him to serve as cupbearers and be raised alongside his children. And if there were other Andal would be conquerers who tried to put him to the test, "true to his word, no doubt he did behead plenty of these wards with his Ice, no doubt. But not all. Now that is something that sounds more like typically Stark, no?

Now you'll ask me, "but if he took wards with him, where are their descendants now? Are there other Andal Houses than Manderly in the North?"

Yes there are: House Mormont, House Glover, House Cassel and maybe House Cerwyn

What's House Mormont's "Keep"? A wooden longhall that disappointed Lynesse Hightower so. What hangs on the entrance of their wooden keep? A carving of a woman with a battleaxe and a babe in a bear skin. The carving basically signals their "motherland" attributes: battleaxe, carving, wood and bears. And the motherland are the Hills of Norvos and the Axe. Damn, House Mormont's Bear Island looks a lot like the surroundings in the Hills of Norvos, and a perfect example of how migratory Andal warlords and kings lived in Andalos, except that House Mormont decided to settle permanently. Hence their words are "Here we Stand", aka "here we halt".

The migratory aspect is important. It's dropped in the World Book when Maester Yandel talks about the Andals of Andalos. They were migratory. He doesn't specify it much, but King Artys Arryn refers to this in a way. We can consider Artys Arryn to be a second generation Andal invader. He was born in the Vale, but the First Men began to realize the threat of these new invading Andals after betrayals such as that of Corbray to the two men who paid him to come to their lands from Andalos. So, after the initial first wave and as these types of betrayals such as Corbray were going on left and right, Artys was born and an adult man already when he defeated the First Men on the Giant's Lance. Now Artys Arryn did build a castle, the Gates of the Moon (which disappointed his grandson greatly, but I'll come back to him later, but also contemporaries of Artys did not consider it a castle for a king): it was a stone fortress to defend himself from any attack from the Riverlands or the mountains. BUT, Artys Arryn was rarely "home". The World Book tries to explain it as Artys Arryn dealing with disputes and rebellion (though he had hostages), but Artys Arryn himself said, "My saddle is my throne, my palace my tent."

Which culture can you think of out of the top of your head that would also say such a thing? Dothraki culture.

No, I'm not saying that Andals are Dothraki, but the horselord migration culture was similar, except that they did build wooden longhalls, instead of grass huts.

Another clue to this horselord culture is Artys' grandson (a 4th generation Andal). The World Book uses the phrase "earned his spurs". This is indeed an expression born from knight culture in the middle ages, so we automatically think of this "earned his spurs" as Maester Yandel trying to be poetic about Roland Arryn earning his knighthood. But this earning of knighthood is not linked to fighting, but specifically to horsemanship - the expertise in riding a horse with spurs. Overall though we can infer that Roland Arryn was a FM culture geek. He absolutely despised the Gates of the Moon after seeing Casterly Rock and Oldtown and being fostered out to an Andal king in the Riverlands and saw the impressive castles of the First Men there. The fact that he didn't even consider the Andal marble good enough for his Eyrie design suggest he hated the Andal "soil" of the Vale. And he wed a FM daughter (House Hunter). Roland Arryn was a First-Menophile. BTW it took 8 kings and nearly 100 years to build the Eyrie, and the pic used in the World Book has it with mostly square spires and square bodies on the outer construction. There's only 3 round spires.

So, in that sense "Here we stand" by the Mormonts is a declaration that they're content with the wild country home they have. They don't need anymore exploration. No conquering. And the fact that their ancestors were taken directly as hostages from the homeland would be why they are so fond of their "motherland" from whence they were taken by a King called Theon Stark. They kept to the "Old Ways" (and I'm not dropping this without reason). Except for the Mormonts the "old ways" are building wooden halls, axes, and at least in Maege's case the Old Gods. 

But obvioiusly, George showed us quite early on that Mormonts were Andals and how the Andal way of life used to be, when he has Dothraki call Jorah "the Andal" and travel a whole book with them. As an Andal, Jorah's ancestors lived much like the Dothraki, except they wore plate armor and wielded axes instead of an arakh, but were just as quarrelsome amongst themselves.

The building of the Eyrie in the World Book also provides indirectly a very good reason why Andals of Andalos did not build in stone. It took 8 kings and about a century and a lot of money to build it. But there was 1 king who halted the Eyrie project. Roland II Arryn, great grandson of Roland I Arryn who started it. The second Roland didn't want to spend money on the building project. He wanted to use the money to go to war against Tristifer IV Mudd in the Riverlands. Conquering and warring costs money, especially if you settle in one place. When you don't have a permanent home, you don't need to bother with defending it, and let your forces "forage" of the lands that you trample.  Conquering was the Andal's god given right so they fought all the time, expanded all the time, and they didn't "waste" resources on building to show off or to defend.

Hence the women of Bear Island defending themselves with axes most likely also date back to proper Andalos. As their husbands went warring and raiding one another, they had to always be prepared to defend themselves. Especially since the World Book also confirms that Andals took the survivors they conquered to slaves, which tended to be women and children. Exactly like the Dothraki do. The World Book mentions it for what the Andals did with the surviving Hairy women and children at the Bay of Lorath. We know the Andals did this after Artys Arryn's victory in the Vale. There's Corbray's story taking one FM king's daughter to wife and another rival FM woman as bedwarmer. They didn't only enslave non-Andals they conquered, but each other too.

And this explains why Theon's "wards" considered it perfectly normal to remain in the North and be true to the king who captured them, and his descendants. It was perfectly normal for them to serve their captor and hope to "earn their freedom" in time, maybe even get "rewarded". The original wards were probably glad they weren't sold off as slaves. And if the group of wards was large enough you would have a retention of the homeland culture, including earning the honorary "ser" title, which most likely is comparable to "kos" or "kas" with the Dothraki.

And thus we have a Ser Rodrik Cassel, and Cassels being the only Stark men riding the lists at Robert's Tourney, aiming to be knights, at least in the kos and kas way. Both protecting their lord physically and attempting to avenge his murder before dying. 

So, what is the evidence for the Glovers? again we have a wooden keep and their sigil is a silver mailed fist. We don't have sers with the Glovers, and silver would be a clue to why: silver spurs are for squires, while full knights have gilded spurs. Why can't a wooden keep be a FM architectural feature: because the FM associate with "stone" and the Pact with the CotF is why they would have started to use "stone" to build instead of wood. The earliest FM of the Dawn Age in the Stormlands provoked a war with the CotF, exactly because they forrested trees to build their settlements. The Pact gave CotF the forests to the CotF and the promise not to cut trees anymore. And certainly the coalition of Brandon with the CotF agains the Others would have revived this agreement. The wooden keep of the Glovers with vassal houses called Forrester for example in the middle of the Wolfswood points to (a) the House not getting their lands before the CotF left the North to go beyond the Wall for good, which would be well after the Andal Invasion and (b) Andal origin of building in wood. 

And then we have House Cerwyn. We don't know the architectural material of their keep, but we do have an eye catching sigil and words: a black battleaxe on silver. Black = iron. Silver = squire. And a battleaxe is what some of the Andal invaders carved early on in the Vale in stone. Their words are "honed and ready".

This should bring the Holy Guard of the Bearded Priests to mind: the longaxe is branded on their chest to remind them to keep their "longaxe" sharp. The Bearded Priests and many elements of the culture at Norvos are reminders of Andal migratory conquering and enslaving culture, except with them it's reversed. They turn it against themselves: hairshirts (hairy men massacres), self flagellation (turning the slaver's whip onto yourself, a longaxe instead of a battleaxe (long way to get home and used to protect and police the people to follow the religious rules), one true god, spiked helms (see Warrior's Sons of the Faith), buying unwanted sons, wearing horsehair capes, dancing bears. I suspect the present day Norvosi sect are descendants of enslaved Andals, most likely the ones who did settle far from the motherland, deep in Rhoyne country, on a site that predated them (like Qarlon the Great) which was the location where later Myr was built by Valyrian merchants. Imo the Bearded Priests preached to their fellow enslaved Andals that it was God punishing them for straying from God's way. Their god had promised to give them a kingdom in the west one day, and instead of waiting patiently for when that time came, they plundered and stole land and massacred the Hairy Men, enslaved them (and raped them?). And then they crossed the Rhoyne with the steel that the Rhoynar had once gifted them. So, in their eyes God punished them to teach them a lesson. Repent! Repent! Repent! So, they picked the Hills of Norvos (their origin) and the Axe, and did build a city, because they were going to wait for God's Helper (Azariah in Hebrew) to gift them a kingdom in the west.

Do I need to mention the Bells? Or that Bearded Men are forbidden to cut their hair? Or how non-priest Norvosi men love to sport long mustachios? Hmmm, where do we see that tradition again?

The Norvosi are not the sole descendants of the Andals that Valyria enslaved I'm sure: the Qohoric (smiths) and the Hightowers (bedslaves from Lys?) seem likely candidates as well. The first didn't care for the fanatical Bearded Priests. Nope, they went all in on the Valyrian blood magic, but still make wooden carvings and like the Norvosi weave tapestries. And the actual Hightower originally being a wooden construction points to Andals.

Finally there is another culture group we can associate with battleaxes, dark iron smithing and building with wood, who reached the most western lands of Westeros: the Ironborn with their "driftwood crown" and structure of Nagga's Bones. But I suspect they left the Axe before the rise of the Faith of the 7 in Andalos, with something else they learned from the Rhoynar: ships. They're more proto-Andals than the Andals of Andalos that I describe. Probably another religious schism: not horses or going inland, but boats for their personal kingdom, thralls, salt wives, and building with white wood where a previous disappeared people left their marks in stone. No writing. And instead of the Faith, they have the Drowned God, and the "Old Way".  

So, to now turn to Yandel's three towerhouses and fortified sept. We know most of the claim is gossip, but let's take this detail more serious. Let's say that the Northerners came across a tower looking wooden home. What would they call these things? Could it be 'tree towerhouses'? They would give it the name it would most resemble to them back in the North, but add the material it was built in. And anyone who heard it back in Westeros would automatically assume they meant actual towerhouses of stone, and phonetically mistake 'tree' for "three". A fortified sept could just be a walled sept, or a sept with a moat around it. In the lower city of Norvos (which represents a memory of their past sins and way of living) the defences are also moats and fences from wood and alike, not stone. Northerners would grasp the intent of a moat (hello Gates of the Moon) or wall of brush or a wooden wall (like the Romans did when setting up camp) and would just refer to it as "fortified". And the Andals who were "stonified" by FM culture would think it means stone fortification. 

Does the last prove these were wooden towerhouses or wooden defences around a sept? Nope. But it does argue how we could get from one thing to another. Add the Andals south of the Neck themselves not really knowing motherland culture anymore. Add them not able to conceive they learned to build with stone from the savage FM. Add it made absolute sense to build stone defences to Westerosised Andals centuries later after the invasion (especially in the kingdom they believed to be the one promised to them), and we can see that there's no way that any gossip about what the Northerners raided in Andalos could be anywhere close to the truth.

And if they were indeed stone structures, then that is the sole evidence in all of Andalos that was built in stone in their thousands of years roaming Andalos proper we have. While we have evidence that even King of All Andals Qarlon the Great built a wooden longhall for his palace. As far as architectural influence or feats  goes that's VERY "disappointing".

Edited August 26, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Loose Bolt]

20 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes there are: House Mormont, House Glover, House Cassel and maybe House Cerwyn

Glovers were petty kings of First Men b4 they knelt to Starks. So they were not Andals.

[Evolett]

On 8/23/2023 at 4:59 PM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

That's fourteen not including the single weirwoods in the Northern godswoods. 

The groves we see are High Heart, Sea Dragon Point, The Grove of nine, Bloodraven's cave and one in Dunk and Egg (can't remember where that was) Mustn't forget the groves the Andal's are said to have cut down or burnt. 

So there more single weirwoods than groves in the series. We can also add the weirwoods popping up in the shadow of the Wall. 

Hi Wizz, hope you're doing well too 

To be honest, I don't think we're really in the position to determine whether groove or single weirwood patterns were the norm back in the days of the FM or the time period during which the Wall was built. What we see  in Westeros are the pitiful remnants left by the devastation caused by both sets of immigrants. When Jon first visits the groove of nine trees beyond the Wall, he thinks this is unheard of because there are no such grooves even in the north at this point in time. Yet as proven by the God's Eye, High Heart and most likely the 44 stumps on the Iron Islands, we know the trees once grew in massive grooves. The single trees we see in Godswoods around the continent may have been single but some could also be the sole survivors of once magnificent grooves. 

I would argue that hollow hill terrain actually encourgages groove formation because of the relatively thin upper soil coverage on account of the caves below. The trees would have to network in order to gain maximum nutrient advantage. Whatever the case, it still makes sense to have weirwoods incorporated into the Wall and perhaps even sacrifice whole grooves if they serve as an anchor for shielding magic attributed to the Wall. 

 

 

On 8/24/2023 at 4:40 AM, Seams said:

My guess is that the breaching or collapse of The Wall will also reflect some of the details we know about the breach of the wall at Pyke during Greyjoy's Rebellion. Thoros of Myr, with his shaven (egg) head and flaming sword, took the lead in crossing that wall, along with Ser Jorah. Old Nan's grandson (father of Hodor?) was killed at the same time, as was Theon's brother, Maron.

Agreed, especially since we have Thoros with his flaming sword in the role of Azor Ahai here. There's another wall-breach we can consider: the taking of Meereen. Ser Jorah is in the front line here as well, along with Strong Belwas and Ser Barristan, a former member of the Kingsguard, whom you propose have special wall crossing ability. In this case the party breaches the wall by stealth, through the sewers. The slaves they release from the fighting pits then join in the frey. But this is only part of the effort to penetrate the walls. 

A huge wooden ram fashioned from the mast of Groleo's ship and named "Joso's Cock," is the instrument that takes down Meereen's gate. 

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Their masts had become her battering rams, and swarms of freedmen had torn their hulls apart to build mantlets, turtles, catapults, and ladders. The sellswords had given each ram a bawdy name, and it had been the mainmast of Meraxes—formerly Joso’s Prank—that had broken the eastern gate. Joso’s Cock, they called it.

 

So, this might offer some evidence for the involvement of trees in the breaking of the Wall. It's interesting that the ship Joso's Prank (a symbolic fool?) becomes a dragon and then a raping phallus. Don't have much to say on the symbolism of that sequence but the "rape" of the gate stands out to me. In relation to the Wall and the horror stories of the Nightfort, it reminds me of the rape of brave Danny Flint (the many gang-rapes we see not withstanding - Tysha, Lollys etc.)

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“A girl who dressed up like a boy to take the black. Her song is sad and pretty. What happened to her wasn’t.” In some versions of the song, her ghost still walked the Nightfort. “I’ll send the girls to Long Barrow.” The only men there were Iron Emmett and Dolorous Edd, both of whom he trusted. That was not something he could say of all his brothers.

 

I suspect we'll see some sort of sexual magic other than the sex involved in Mel's creation of shadow babies. The NW vow forbids taking wives and fathering children but many brothers visit Mole's Town for buried treasure - they have their sex outside of CB itself. Might a gang-rape at the Wall impeach its defences? Besides breaking the vow on location and the act itself not carried out with intent to weaken the Wall, an effect is possible. Sexual energy is considered potent and powerful. In magical practices, it's believed that this energy can be harnessed, focused, and channeled to achieve specific intentions. 

Brave Danny Flint's ploy to join the NW is something that Arya would do, if she put her mind to it. Jon Snow did not trust the brothers in respect of the two wilding girls who had disguised themselves as boys. Jeyne Poole, supposedly Arya, is on her way to Castle Black. Jon Snow will not be able to protect her. I can see those brothers who support Bowen Marsh adding insult to injury by mishandling and raping Jon's "sister." Jeyne's nose going black with frostbite could be the clue linking her to Tyrion's lost nose and to Tysha. 

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Loose Bolt said:

Glovers were petty kings of First Men b4 they knelt to Starks. So they were not Andals.

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Amongst the houses reduced from royals to vassals we can count the Flints of Breakstone Hill, the Slates of Blackpool, the Umbers of Last Hearth, the Lockes of Oldcastle, the Glovers of Deepwood Motte, the Fishers of the Stony Shore, the Ryders of the Rills...and mayhaps even the Blackwoods of Raventree, whose own family traditions insist they once ruled most of the wolfswood before being driven from their lands by the Kings of Winter (certain runic records support this claim, if Maester Barneby's translations can be trusted).

The sole assertion for this is the World Book. And it's in the same paragraph of the claim of the Blackwoods being the kings of the Wolfswood before the Kings of Winter kicked them out of the North, and at least for the latter we have runic records to support the Blackwoods claim, and having had greenseers for a long time, I trust a greenseer family's claim on this.  The "scarlet" on the sigil implies something is not as is claimed or believed, imho. Seems like the Blackwoods were kings of the Wolfswood before the Glovers.

And there is another issue with the wooden longhall of the Glovers. Asha proved how easy it was for Ironborn to take it. The Ironborn used Bear Island permanently until the century after Gared the Great to reave the western coastlines of the North. And so I have to believe that in the thousand years of reaving no former petty king Glover ever thought of making a stone keep? Seems to me that the old wooden longhall with wooden pallisade dates back to a time when the Ironborn were kicked out of Bear Island once and for all. The Ironborn lost Bear Island for the first time in the century after Gared the Great (an Andal Lannister). They got it back a few times until the Stark who won it from a Greyjoy with wrestling. It doesn't add up that they never even built a stone wall with watchtowers for six thousand years (at least), with such a constant threat for thousand of years. We know about the constant Blackwood feud with the Brackens, and while their keep is wood, their walls certainly are not. So a lot of question marks behind the World Book's assertion on this.

I'm also suspicious about the Dustin claim with regards to them being descendants of the Barrow Kings, especially when a maester says "seems sure enough" about it. A black crown with rusted longaxes (iron) for a sigil and again a wooden longhall for a seat. Though the rusted iron suggests early iron forging. Might have a connection with the Ironborn, and in that way a long connecton (longaxe) with The Axe.

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The rusted crown upon the arms of House Dustin derives from their claim that they are themselves descended from the First King and the Barrow Kings who ruled after him. The old tales recorded in Kennet's Passages of the Dead claim that a curse was placed on the Great Barrow that would allow no living man to rival the First King. This curse made these pretenders to the title grow corpselike in their appearance as it sucked away their vitality and life. This is no more than legend, to be sure, but that the Dustins share blood and descent from the Barrow Kings of old seems sure enough.

Barrowton, too, is somewhat of a curiosity—a gathering place built at the foot of the reputed barrow of the First King, who once ruled supreme over all the First Men, if the legends can be believed. Rising from the midst of a wide and empty plain, it has prospered thanks to the shrewd stewardship of the Dustins, loyal bannermen to the Starks, who have ruled the Barrowlands in their name since the fall of the last of the Barrow Kings.

They ruled since the last of the Barrow Kings. These were the first kings that the Starks warred with to expand their petty kingdom.

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More historical proof exists for the war between the Kings of Winter and the Barrow Kings to their south, who styled themselves the Kings of the First Men and claimed supremacy over all First Men everywhere, even the Starks themselves. Runic records suggest that their struggle, dubbed the Thousand Years War by the singers, was actually a series of wars that lasted closer to two hundred years than a thousand, ending when the last Barrow King bent his knee to the King of Winter, and gave him the hand of his daughter in marriage.

But the last Barrow King is not said to have been killed. So instead of Barrow Kings they became House Dustin I guess. Still I'm wondering about the First King's claim.

As I see it, the legend of Hugor of the Hill of the Seven promising him and his descendants great kingdoms in a foreign land inspired some of their best warriors to go exploring. They had just acquired some forging knowledge, plate armor of the Rhoynar and met these river people who knew how to sail. We know they were ever quarrelsome. Some didn't want anything to do with boats: they had horses and you can't drink salt water. They would have argued there was more land for the taking now that they had the plate armor as advantage against the Hairy Men to the west. I can see another group arguing that the promised kingdoms lay beyond the sea, rallying other men to join them on this dangerous first sailing voyage to the west. These imo became the Ironborn, but also very likely House Durrandon.

We have a reverse gender belief about Storm Gods between Durrandons and Ironborn, and no origin story for Durran "Godsgrief" (just his castle story). The Durrandons and the Ironborn are the sole ones sharing the name Erich, and the Storm Kings are associated with smithing. On top of that Durran appears at a bay called Shipbreaker's Bay, which is famously known for its storms all year round. And we have a story of Patchface ending up on the beach as sole survivor, though he "drowned". On top of that we have some story about Godsgrief and a woman who basically comes down to a Lorelei or siren. Bays and water locations where ships end up on cliffs are typical locations where siren stories arise. So, in Durran, around the time of the Long Night supposedly we have a new arrival. Sounds like his ship got wrecked. And he immediately proclaims himself king, taking the Rainwood from the cotf, despite the Pact. Sounds like someone who didn't know about the Pact.

Why did he build in stone then? Well he might have tried wood first, but that got blown away, etc, etc. And if he pronounced himself king there and then, this might be because he believed he had arrived in the promised lands. No need to migrate or conquer beyond the capes the sea had sent him but spit out once more.

Meanwhile the Ironborn believe in a Drowned God and a female Storm Goddess who is their enemy. Was Durran Godsgrief one of their God-Kings who inspired them to go on this perilous exploration? Did his ship get separated and did they see it go down at Shipbreaker's Bay?

But if one of their men or leaders ended up at Durran's Point, then others might have wrecked far more north too in a region with little to no rivals. Via Davos we also know that the Sisters is a notorious location for wrecking of ships. The Sistermen worshipped the lady of the waves and the Lord of the Skies. Bingo! And they cast dwarfs into the sea as an offering. Sounds familiar. And they went into the Bite and the Shivering Sea. The sea around Skagos is also notorious for wrecking pirate ships. And both the Bite and the Neck a location of easy entry into the North, especially if there hardly any rivals.

The black crown of the First King on the Dustin sigil and easily rusting iron suggests forging technology like that of the Ironborn. So, maybe he was one of those adventurers who managed to get North before most everyone else did, and like Durran ended up believing this was the promised kingdom, and since it was promised by a god all the land and the people in it owed fealty to him.

Back to the Three Sisters and Fingers area. At the Fingers and the Vale maesters discovered two type of carvings:

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As he argues, next to the carvings of sevenpointed stars, carvings of a doublebladed axe appeared to have been the next most favored symbol of the holy warriors who conquered the old Seven Kingdoms.

Etched in Stone by Archmaester Harmune contains a catalog of such carvings found throughout the Vale. Stars and axes are found from the Fingers into the Mountains of the Moon, and even as far into the Vale of Arryn as the base of the Giant's Lance. Harmune supposes that, with time, the Andals became more devoted to the symbol of the seven-pointed star and so the axe fell by the wayside as an emblem of the Faith.

The carvings of the star outnumber those of the double bladed axe. But they are found deep into the Vale. The maesters assume those carvings were made at the same time: that there was a star faction and an axe faction, but eventually stuck with the star. But how could the maesters know for certain that those carvings were made during one and the same invasion? They cannot. Maybe the axe were the markings of a far older wave? The first wave? A much smaller wave? Could that explain an Arryn name for a legend of 6000 years old?

As for the Ironborn, they seemed to have continued, might even have been scattered at the Stepstones. At Starfall they would have met with a people that had superior steel over their iron. The whole "sea dragon" legend may have to do with being witnesses to potential dragon battle at Battle Isle for example. But we do have pirates for that bay and the Honeywine. On and on some went to finally pick the abandoned Iron Islands for their multi kingdoms, especially since they seemed scared of going too far inland, and they could use it for forging their black iron.

And then there's House Ryswell. The Rills were originally ruled by House Ryder. It's not known when the Ryswells became its rulers, but lookie lookie: King Theon Stark put a rebellion down once at the Rills.

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King Theon also fought the ironborn in the west, driving them from Cape Kraken and Bear Island, put down a rebellion in the Rills, and joined the Night's Watch in an incursion beyond the Wall that broke the power of the wildlings for a generation).

The sigil includes bronze, suggesting bronze age, but that likely stems from the Ryders. So, there certainly was horsebreeding with the FIrst Men (the Brackens too), but after the rebellion by the Ryders, Theon Stark could have rewarded an Andal ward of a horse culture in charge of it instead. Take note that Lyanna's alleged practice at the rings on horseback of the app would have occurred here, where her brother Brandon Stark was a ward. And that he actively rode during the Tourney of Harrenhal. So, we have a "knight" connection or practice at it for that house too.

So, I'm not so sure about this "First Men petty kings" necessarily disproves some of these houses to have been part of a far earlier invasion attempt, at a time with far less resistance from the First Men, because some of these areas may not have been peopled. The First King seems to have been such a man, Durran Godsgrief, the early Sistermen, with at least two of these sharing commonalities with the Ironborn. Add wards from Theon Stark's time about 4000 years later. And then of course much more recently, the Manderlys from the Reach. And some very mistifying anomalies. As such we may be looking at different era Andals in the North that the maesters don't know about.

[Seams]

6 hours ago, Evolett said:

So, this might offer some evidence for the involvement of trees in the breaking of the Wall. It's interesting that the ship Joso's Prank (a symbolic fool?) becomes a dragon and then a raping phallus. Don't have much to say on the symbolism of that sequence but the "rape" of the gate stands out to me.

How 'bout this for a tree "breaking" the Wall?

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And they came. Slowly at first, some limping or leaning on their fellows, the captives began to emerge from their rough-hewn pen. If you would eat, come to me, Jon thought. If you would not freeze or starve, submit. Hesitant, wary of some trap, the first few prisoners edged across the planks and through the ring of the stakes, toward Melisandre and the Wall. More followed, when they saw that no harm had come to those who went before. Then more, until it was a steady stream. Queen's men in studded jacks and halfhelms handed each passing man, woman, or child a piece of white weirwood: a stick, a splintered branch as pale as broken bone, a spray of blood-red leaves. A piece of the old gods to feed the new. Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand.

ADwD, Jon III

Maybe the connection to the taking of Meereen is that, in Essos, the tree (ship's mast) is the battering ram that brings down the gate. When the wildlings cross through the tunnel in Westeros, the crossing is achieved by breaking the tree. (Burning the branches in the fire.) 

Could it be one format breaks down a wall for people entering and the other for breaking people out? The thing on the other side of the wall also seems to be relevant. 

There is phallic imagery in both cases, I think, if you compare the rush of wildlings or the escaping slaves to sperm rushing toward an egg. 

I have the feeling that the giant who died in the tunnel with Donal Noye might have been part of the phallic imagery as well. 

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"Yes. Donal was the last." Noye's sword was sunk deep in the giant's throat, halfway to the hilt. The armorer had always seemed such a big man to Jon, but locked in the giant's massive arms he looked almost like a child. "The giant crushed his spine. I don't know who died first." He took the lantern and moved forward for a better look. "Mag." I am the last of the giants. He could feel the sadness there, but he had no time for sadness. "It was Mag the Mighty. The king of the giants."

ASoS, Jon VIII

"I know you held the gate here," King Stannis said. "If not, I would have come too late."

"Donal Noye held the gate. He died below in the tunnel, fighting the king of the giants."

Stannis grimaced. "Noye made my first sword for me, and Robert's warhammer as well. Had the god seen fit to spare him, he would have made a better Lord Commander for your order than any of these fools who are squabbling over it now."

ASoS, Jon XI

We have seen Ice melted down to make two swords, but maybe the encounter of Noye and Mag is the rejoining of two weapons that are now united in one? Stannis mentioning his first sword and Robert's warhammer is a "two weapons" reference that might tell us the qualities of Robert and Stannis are finally coming together, now that Donal Noye has "forged" a connection to Mag the Mighty. 

In a way, this could also be connected to the idea of the ship's mast being repurposed as a battering ram. One tool with two functions.

What kind of weapon is made when a giant and a smith are combined? 

I agree with your surmise that Jeyne Poole's plight is an ingredient in the fate of the wall. She has definitely been raped and abused. Her rapist was a "snow" - Ramsay Snow / Bolton. What if the frostbite on her nose brings us back to Gared?

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Gared wasn't half-bad, for a crow. Had less ears than me, that one. The 'bite took 'em, same as mine." Craster laughed. "Now I hear he got no head neither. The 'bite do that too?"

ACoK, Jon III

Craster jokes about Gared losing ears to frostbite and wonders whether "the bite" took his head, too. We know that Ice took his head. 

In the game that GRRM plays with balancing forces, it would make sense that branches from a tree with a face are burned on one side of a wall, but a person's facial features are frozen and amputated by cold on the other side of the wall.

[sweetsunray]

If we expand the "breaking of a wall" to "getting to the other side of a wall", we also have the use of sewers at Slaver's Bay to get people on the other side to rebel against the Master, and using people on the other side to help open the gates or doors (Deepwood Motte) drawing people in the open field, or planting an insider (Tom Sevenstreams at RR).

[Tyrosh Lannister]

On 8/23/2023 at 1:06 AM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

I think the key here is that the entire Wall is built on top of not only the weirwood trees but the cave system that runs beneath it. A large percentage of the weirwoods (or groves that have been cut down) we see in the series are growing on top of hollow hills, with a cave below to facilitate the weirwood root thrones the greenseers sit. Winterfell, Storm's End, Sea dragon point, The Whispers, High Heart, Bloodraven's cave etc. Otherwise they are already underground, Casterly Rock, The Wolf's Den. The Others we see are atop hills where it's highly likely there are caves beneath, but we have no text, Highgarden, The Citadel etc. And last but not least, and most importantly, we have the Nightfort. So yeah, it's the caves as well as the weirwoods that are key here.

As for evidence the Wall is built on a cave system, we have the tale of Gendel and Gorne. The cave system is huge, yet the Wall is thin in comparison.

A dozen armored knights riding abreast tells us the Wall is only, what? About forty foot wide at the top? Thicker at the bottom, but it would take no time at all to pass through the Wall from South to North. Yet the cave system is massive, it seems likely the cave system goes mainly from East to West. 

Then we get this text.

West of Castle Black, we have it confirmed that there is hill after hill. The pattern repeated again and again by George is that where there are hills there are almost always caves. So West of Castle Black is hollow hill country for sure, and following said pattern, this means it's extremely likely there would've been weirwoods growing there for eons. It being a sword to the east is less clear, but I don't think it's too much of a leap to assume the cave system stretches East of Castle Black as well. Especially when you consider the wormways beneath each of the castles on the Wall. I'm fairly certain I've found evidence for this in the past, caves or hills, but the quote escapes me right now. I'll post again if I find it.

Additionally, to make sure we're singing off the same hymn sheet here, I don't think the weirwoods have to be super close together. The key is a magical ley line of caves and trees. The Wall is roughly 300 miles wide from East to West, so obviously the trees are seriously spread out. For the sake of poetic symbolism, let's say there are 79 weirwoods to match the 79 Sentinels. That's well over a mile between each tree. My head cannon suggests there are probably less than that, let's say as little as one for each castle (including groves like at Castle Black) then that's as few as 19. I think it's probably somewhere in the middle of that. Fifty would be one every six miles. Whatever the number, it's the caves that are key. As I said previously, I think the Wall is built on a gargantuan hollow hill site, and with that comes weirwoods. 

You are right to highlight the anomaly of trees growing in straight(ish) lines, that is normally associated with humans planting. But the pattern George has supplied throughout the text gives us ample evidence to suggest these weirwood trees could absolutely be growing in a line across the width of Westeros. 

Thanks for probing with these queries, it fleshes out the theory, and said probing requires evidence to back up the claim.  

No worries ☺️ but I still do not understand how did the Wall trees become so tall ? The Winterfell weirwood tree is thousands of years but it's not redwood sized 

[Evolett]

16 hours ago, Seams said:

Maybe the connection to the taking of Meereen is that, in Essos, the tree (ship's mast) is the battering ram that brings down the gate. When the wildlings cross through the tunnel in Westeros, the crossing is achieved by breaking the tree. (Burning the branches in the fire.) 

Maybe. Then we would have a physical breaking (ram) and a magical breaking (weirwood branches) of its wards, both attacks coming from outside, the enemy side. IIRC, the wildlings are required to burn those branches to enter, those who refuse cannot cross south. 

 

16 hours ago, Seams said:

What kind of weapon is made when a giant and a smith are combined? 

Mag originally starts of as an enemy, tearing off the outer door to the tunnel and then wrenching apart the bars and chains of the iron gate. He then gets stuck in the tunnel, effectively blocking passage from outside and inside the tunnel. As long as he's stuck there nobody can pass. I see a "hold the door" moment here. Donal Noye then "forges" his sword in Mag's throat. Perhaps the forging turns Mag into an effective combination of a physical and magical ward. In the case of Meereen, the phallic ram does get through. 

I think the Bloody Gate at the Eyrie potentially offers more insights if we can bring the symbolism together. The "Bloody Gate" can allude to a loss off virginity, a brutal rape, sexual activity, especially if we think of "Gatehouse Ami" and similar comparisons between female parts and gates / portcullis. In the background we have the "Giant's Lance" standing guard. The previous Knight of the Gate, commander of the Bloody Gate was Brynden Tully, the Blackfish. I believe the name Tully is wordplay on the fine netted fabric "tulle" and this in turn symbolizes a magical ward. I posted a more detailed interpretation upthread.   Brynden resigns as Knight of the Gate to aid House Tully and Ser Donnel Waynwood becomes his successor. 

Ser Donnel is the second son of Lady Anya Waynwood, Lady of Ironoaks. At this point I can't help thinking of Dunk:

Quote

Oak and iron, guard me well, or else I'm dead and doomed to hell.

And Dunk also falls into the giant category, is "thick as a castle Wall" and "a knight of the Seven Kingdoms." By merging with Donal Noye, I think Mag becomes a symbolic "Wall Knight," or Knight of the Gate. 

 

16 hours ago, Seams said:

I agree with your surmise that Jeyne Poole's plight is an ingredient in the fate of the wall. She has definitely been raped and abused. Her rapist was a "snow" - Ramsay Snow / Bolton. What if the frostbite on her nose brings us back to Gared?

Maybe it does, though I cannot think of what that might mean right now. Arya becomes a parallel to Danny Flint when Yoren cuts off her hair to disguise her as a boy and recruit of the Night's Watch. As such, there is potential foreshadowing for Jeyne Poole's fate at the Wall:

Quote

He shook her. “Lord Eddard gave me pick o’ the dungeons, and I didn’t find no little lordlings down there. This lot, half o’ them would turn you over to the queen quick as spit for a pardon and maybe a few silvers. The other half’d do the same, only they’d rape you first.

Yoren punishes Arya after she beats up Hotpie. He takes her to the woods, backs her up against a tree, asks her to take down her breeches and beats her with a stick. She has blood running down her  thighs afterwards. She can't ride for days because of the pain. There's a lot of rape imagery here. 

 

Sewers and Wards

I think sewers represent magical wards. Again, I point to my previous post on weaving and warding. Melisandre relates weaving light to form a glamour to weaving with thread:

Quote

 R’hllor is Lord of Light, Jon Snow, and it is given to his servants to weave with it, as others weave with thread.”

Sewers would weave or sew with thread but how can we determine if sewers weave magical wards or that sewers represent wards? I think the answer to this is the smell, the stink that is so offputting as to drive one away. In the Meereen example, Jorah and co. enter the city by stealth, "breaching" the Wall through the sewers. 

Quote

walls, a few half-mad swimmers found the sewer mouths and pried loose a rusted iron grating. Ser Jorah, Ser Barristan, Strong Belwas, and twenty brave fools slipped beneath the brown water and up the brick tunnel, a mixed force of sellswords, Unsullied, and freedmen. Dany had told them to choose only men who had no families … and preferably no sense of smell.

 

Mouths can be magical entrances and exits, we've seen. Iron keeps spirits locked up - it has a warding function, but this iron is rusted, suggesting it's no more than a weak ward. Lastly Dany requires men with no sense of smell. Men who successfully ignore the smell and filth of the sewers can cross the "ward." The bloody fools are probably important as well so let's take a look at Tyrion.

Tyrion engages in sewing his own clothes in a motley pattern on the Shy Maid. He's also a symbolic fool character. He's also connected to sewers because he cleans up the drains of Casterly Rock. As a symbolic warded "sewer" he escapes both drowning and grey scale, though Jon Con catches the disease. Cleaning up the drains of Casterly Rock is the first official task given to him by Tywin. By seeing to the unblocking of the sewers, Tyrion symbolically allows the magic to flow again, restoring the ward. And like Dany's brave fools, Tyrion symbolically has no sense of smell - he has no nose. He's a sewer that can overcome "sewers" / wards. 

This would also make some sense of the ward Theon turning into Reek and why Dany must beware of the "perfumed seneschall" or "stinky steward."

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Evolett

[sweetsunray]

@Evolett

Nice potential wordplay for sewers in relation to weaving wards.

As for Arya in relation to rape: I'm reminded of Arya's voyage in Braavos to the Gate, and her being asked by the fellow actor whether she's ready for "her rape". If that city walkthrough and the Gate represents her going "home", then this implies Arya's "rape" after getting home. Given that "rape" is also used in Lyanna's case for "abduction"/"elopement" unsanctioned by her guardians it can also be used to imply "stealing". It could just mean her being sexually active as a minor with a man/boy of her choice at an age many readers would regard as too young to consent. Ever since he dropped his 5 year gap, George has given us Arianne and Asha who picked their first lover at the ages of around 13-14.

Back to the gate/ward. So, "rape" in relation to a gate or ward, means stealing a ward. For example Arya gets stolen by the Hound (a symbolical rape) while she was a ward of the BwB (a hostage). Samwell steals Gilly (a flower): so he symbolically deflowered her, including giving her his cloak. Jon steals a hostage from Mel and Stannis (Mance's son), but also sends it away: Sam and Gilly have the "ward", and steals Val from Stannis, and Patrek attempts to steal her but is unsuccesful, because he was killed by her "guardian" (a giant). 

The rape of Dany Flint at the NW, also ties to Dany, not just by the name Dany but also the name Flint, as Widow's Watch that I pointed out in my map post, is a seat of House Flint. If Dany is "stolen" from a guard/guardian/hostage taker, she is "raped".

Also good catch on noseless Tyrion not being able to smell in relation to sewers. The stolen ward Jeyne Poole also lost her nose and is on her way to CB.

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

17 hours ago, Seams said:

Maybe the connection to the taking of Meereen is that, in Essos, the tree (ship's mast) is the battering ram that brings down the gate. When the wildlings cross through the tunnel in Westeros, the crossing is achieved by breaking the tree. (Burning the branches in the fire.) 

Maybe. Then we would have a physical breaking (ram) and a magical breaking (weirwood branches) of its wards, both attacks coming from outside, the enemy side. IIRC, the wildlings are required to burn those branches to enter, those who refuse cannot cross south. 

Chambers:

mast² /mäst/ 

noun

1. The fruit of the oak, beech, chestnut, and other forest trees, on which pigs feed
2. Nuts, acorns

Edited August 27, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[LongRider]

In GOT Arya gets lost chasing cats in the Red Keep, during her adventures there, she sees Varys and Illyrio and hears some of their plotting.  She also sees the dragon skulls for the first time.  She loses track of the two men and ends up in the sewer and finds her way out from there.  Interestingly, in her journeys across the Riverlands, and again when in the HBW, she continues to get herself into out of places that others might not.  She's a walking ward breaker, that one.

GOT Arya IV