Who will rule the North? Sansa, Rickon or Jon?

[MissM]

On 9/25/2023 at 7:53 AM, Groo said:

While the potential might be there, these are pretty small examples. Look at the huge differences in Jon and Arya's storylines. Jon's story arc is very explicitly about leadership: making hard decisions that affect large groups of people, his own personal desires to rule Winterfell, trying to get opposing groups to work together, dealing with conflicting agendas, feeling the need to not appear to be playing favorites, etc. Whether you think he's done a good job or a poor one, his whole story arc is centered on leadership. I don't think you can say anything like that about Arya's story. One could argue that your examples just show that Arya is good at making personal friends.

I approach the original question from just looking at the flow of the story. Think of the questions that people naturally ask and wonder about with Jon. Will he still lead the Nights Watch, assuming he's still alive or gets resurrected? Will he become King of the North? Will he unite the Wildings and the North? If he discovers his true parentage, would he want to claim the Iron Throne? Would he put himself before the Stark children? Would he put himself before Daenerys? Imagine how weird it would feel if Jon's story ended with him taking a ship to go sail the seas and have adventures. If Jon lives, he ends up with one of the top spots just because that's what his story has been about. I wouldn't say that's what Arya's story has been about.

 

Jon is made to lead men, and if given the choice Arya in this case would happily support his position. Will he be KiTN as the endgame? Or is he fated for something greater? 

GRRM writes to disrupt and subvert character arcs. What you have described in Jon's narrative is clear cut, obvious, and fits the cookie cutter. Too easy.

But then you have GRRM speaking through in a speech many have used to describe what a Just Ruler Westeros needs. Varys' speech to Kevan Lannister in ADWD is very specific and poignant. There is only 1 present day asoiaf character that fits its mold.

Echos of Arya in characters from the past keep cropping up over and over again. Black Betha, Black Aly (we'll see her in HOTD), Rhaenyra Targaryen, Lyanna Stark...etc They all made huge decisions that impacted the realm. There are clues to Arya's endgame in all these phantoms from the past. 

If Arya were to become Queen, she wouldn't rule outright. That was Rhaenyra's mistake. Her present day skills would make her the perfect player to work from the shadows. It always seemed baffling why the FM recruited Arya - what is their use for her? A young girl who can never be No One no matter how hard she tries. What is the point of training her? 

You can see it in her direwolf Nymeria uniting every wolf pack she comes across under her leadership - now numbered in the hundreds, something never seen before in the south. 

Like GRRM said when asked, Arya is the wild card. 

 

 

[Groo]

9 minutes ago, MissM said:

GRRM writes to disrupt and subvert character arcs.

Yes and No. For example, it is amazing how good a job Martin did in making Jon's ascension to Lord Commander feel like a surprise to readers and to the characters in the story. However, unliked boy hero joins military order on eve of apocalypse and rises to command it when the great enemy appears is exactly what anyone who has ever read a fantasy novel would have expected.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Theon, the Prince of Winterfell born again! He marries fake Arya after Ramsay Bolton is killed. He takes the Stark name from Arya rather than the other way around, and rules as Theon Stark. He gladly turns the throne over to Rickon once he is discovered. Rickon tells him he is a true Stark and Theon serves his days out loyally as Rickon's right hand man. 

 

Yah, this is wish fulfillment. Let me have it. 

[Gravity Grave]

On 8/31/2023 at 7:36 PM, Odej said:

Jon

Situation: apparently dead, but with an almost certain return (whatever that may be). Pro: male and a will from the last king of the North legitimizing him as his heir. Cons: bastard, member of the Night's watch.

Except that Robb named Catelyn as heir, not Jon. 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Gravity Grave said:

Except that Robb named Catelyn as heir, not Jon. 

Did he now? Care to provide a quote to back that up?

[Gravity Grave]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Did he now? Care to provide a quote to back that up?

 

""I left my wife at Riverrun. I want my mother elsewhere. If you keep all your treasures in one purse, you only make it easier for those who would rob you. After the wedding, you shall go to Seagard, that is my royal command." Robb stood, and as quick as that, her fate was settled. He picked up a sheet of parchment. "One more matter. Lord Balon has left chaos in his wake, we hope. I would not do the same. Yet I have no son as yet, my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. I've thought long and hard about who might follow me. I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision."

A king indeed, Catelyn thought, defeated. She could only hope that the trap he'd planned for Moat Cailin worked as well as the one in which he'd just caught her."

 

Robb traps Cat by telling her he's naming Jon. Knowing full well she'll protest, so that when he names her, she can't complain. It's also the reason he's sending her to Seagard as not to keep all "this treasures in one purse", his treasures being his wife and his named heir.  

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, Gravity Grave said:

 

""I left my wife at Riverrun. I want my mother elsewhere. If you keep all your treasures in one purse, you only make it easier for those who would rob you. After the wedding, you shall go to Seagard, that is my royal command." Robb stood, and as quick as that, her fate was settled. He picked up a sheet of parchment. "One more matter. Lord Balon has left chaos in his wake, we hope. I would not do the same. Yet I have no son as yet, my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. I've thought long and hard about who might follow me. I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision."

A king indeed, Catelyn thought, defeated. She could only hope that the trap he'd planned for Moat Cailin worked as well as the one in which he'd just caught her."

 

Robb traps Cat by telling her he's naming Jon. Knowing full well she'll protest, so that when he names her, she can't complain. It's also the reason he's sending her to Seagard as not to keep all "this treasures in one purse", his treasures being his wife and his named heir.  

I don’t think that quote means that at all. Not to mention that it would make zero sense for Robb to name Cat his successor. 

[Gravity Grave]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t think that quote means that at all. Not to mention that it would make zero sense for Robb to name Cat his successor. 

 

What doesn't make sense is for Robb to tell Cat he's naming Jon, thus Cat and the reader is expecting Jon to be named then GRRM ending the chapter after Robb reveals the document naming his heir with this

"A king indeed, Catelyn thought, defeated. She could only hope that the trap he'd planned for Moat Cailin worked as well as the one in which he'd just caught her."

That's not a throwaway line. The use of the term "Trap" is important as it indicates surprise from Cat after the document has been revealed and that Robb has shown a cunning which makes Cat hopeful for his Moat Cailin strategy. 

Robb telling Cat he's naming Jon and then naming Jon isn't a trap, it's Robb simply exerting his authority and overruling her objections. That last line is almost certainly referencing a switch which catches Cat unawares. 

Even if you don't think the heir is Cat, that last line heavily indicates it's not Jon. 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Gravity Grave

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, Gravity Grave said:

 

What doesn't make sense is for Robb to tell Cat he's naming Jon, thus Cat and the reader is expecting Jon to be named then GRRM ending the chapter after Robb reveals the document naming his heir with this

"A king indeed, Catelyn thought, defeated. She could only hope that the trap he'd planned for Moat Cailin worked as well as the one in which he'd just caught her."

That's not a throwaway line. The use of the term "Trap" is important as it indicates surprise from Cat after the document has been revealed and that Robb has shown a cunning which makes Cat hopeful for his Moat Cailin strategy. 

Robb telling Cat he's naming Jon and then naming Jon isn't a trap, it's Robb simply exerting his authority and overruling her objections. That last line is almost certainly referencing a switch which catches Cat unawares. 

Even if you don't think the heir in Cat, that last line heavily indicates it's not Jon. 

Yes, the use of “trap” is meaningful, but I don’t think it’s in the way you’re interpreting it.  
 

ASoS, Catelyn V

“Young, and a king,” he said. “A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her.” His mouth tightened. “To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north.”
“No,” Catelyn agreed. “You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son.” She considered a moment. “Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . . ”
“Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb’s tone. “You forget. My father had four sons.”She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. “A Snow is not a Stark.”
<snip>

“Jon would never harm a son of mine.”
“No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?”
Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon.”
“So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa . . . your own sister, trueborn . . . ”
“ . . . and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father’s head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice.”
“I cannot,” she said. “In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this . . . this folly. Do not ask it.”
“I don’t have to. I’m the king.” Robb turned and walked off, Grey Wind bounding down from the tomb and loping after him.”

The trap is the plan to send her to Seaguard despite her objections and naming Jon his heir w/o her approval. The trap is presenting the will in front of the others and having them sign it then and there. 
Note how in the conversation above, the last thing he tells her is, “I don’t have to. I’m the king”. And her thoughts in the quote you posted end the same way. He got her, he did what he wanted. 
 

 

[Gravity Grave]

I don't think Robb overruling Cat by naming Jon and sending her to Seagard can be considered a trap, at least not to its significant use in the last sentence of a chapter. A trap indicates strategy and cunning, and that's reinforced by it being likened in Cat's thoughts to a trap he's setting for Moat Cailin, which requires strategy. Robb naming Jon is him exerting his authority, it's not a trap, it's what she expects. 

The trap is a bait and switch imo. She pleaded with Robb not to pick Jon and he didn't, and never intended to, he played her so that she could not protest his actual choice.

 

[Odej]

13 hours ago, Gravity Grave said:

Except that Robb named Catelyn as heir, not Jon. 

No, he didn't. For all the reasons @kissdbyfire already metioned.

It makes no sense whatsoever for Robb to name Catelyn his heir.

First, she is a woman. In this universe, women basically become their husband's property when they get married and take his name. Placing Catelyn as heir means making her a target of dispute for anyone who wants to claim Winterfell and consequently taking the Stark name out of the picture. That was the reason why the Lannisters married Sansa to Tyrion and Robb didn't want his sister as his heir 'cause of that.

Second, unlike Sansa and Arya, Catelyn is a Stark by marriage not birth. She's not even from the north. It is very unlikely that the proud northern vassals, who were fighting for the right to be independent again, would accept a southern woman as their ruler. If they did, it would be to claim power through her, as I mentioned earlier. Robb, like any king in his position, wanted the Stark blood and name to continue and for that to happen, he needed a man with Stark blood as his heir.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Odej

[Groo]

17 hours ago, Gravity Grave said:

The trap is a bait and switch imo. She pleaded with Robb not to pick Jon and he didn't, and never intended to, he played her so that she could not protest his actual choice.

I'm honestly mystified by your posts. In addition to all the points others have already made, in her subsequent POV chapters Cat never once thinks or mentions that she's now Robb's heir. No one else mentions it to her or treats her any differently than they did before. Your entire theory seems to amount to misconstruing a single sentence that was part of Cat's internal thoughts. It wasn't even something Robb said. He didn't say he had a trap for her.

[Gravity Grave]

On 9/29/2023 at 12:31 PM, Odej said:

No, he didn't. For all the reasons @kissdbyfire already metioned.

It makes no sense whatsoever for Robb to name Catelyn his heir.

First, she is a woman. In this universe, women basically become their husband's property when they get married and take his name. Placing Catelyn as heir means making her a target of dispute for anyone who wants to claim Winterfell and consequently taking the Stark name out of the picture. That was the reason why the Lannisters married Sansa to Tyrion and Robb didn't want his sister as his heir 'cause of that.

Second, unlike Sansa and Arya, Catelyn is a Stark by marriage not birth. She's not even from the north. It is very unlikely that the proud northern vassals, who were fighting for the right to be independent again, would accept a southern woman as their ruler. If they did, it would be to claim power through her, as I mentioned earlier. Robb, like any king in his position, wanted the Stark blood and name to continue and for that to happen, he needed a man with Stark blood as his heir.

 

There is no questioning your reasons why Catelyn is a bad choice are valid. But the characters don’t make the optimal choices in every circumstance, so this could easily be explained by Robb simply making another bad decision.

 

 

[BalerionTheCat]

Rickon is the logical heir. No one would question that, even if Robb named Jon heir. And even if, I don't think Jon will be available to rule the North. Not as a king anyway. No more than Bran would. Whatever his fate, Jon is beyond mortality now. Bran too, if he follows BR's path.

Rickon just has to live. He is too young now. He will first need a regent. Jon or Manderly or whoever.

[BlackLightning]

I think in that in the TV show, Sansa took Rickon's endgame and Tyrion took Sansa's endgame

Meaning that I think Bran will become King of Westeros, Sansa will become the realm's first female Hand and Rickon will become Prince of Winterfell