Who will rule the North? Sansa, Rickon or Jon?

[csuszka1948]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

That would be silly though, as Aegon could turn on them as soon as he reaches the age majority for killing his father. Isabella and Roger Mortimer did something similar with Edward II and III and it backfired when Edward III grew up as he had Roger executed in front of Isabella. Plus, they would be taking the risk that Aegon was mad like Aerys.

They could introduce some version of the Magna Charta to restrict the King's powers. This would be the prudent course of action after Aerys' enormities.

 

How would they take the risk that he becomes another Aerys? They would personally oversee his upbringing to make sure this doesn't happen.

[csuszka1948]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

He had most of those privileges as Lord of the Stormlands with less scheming and responsibilities. 

I don't think he would be able to ignore his actual job so much if he wasn't King.

Besides, this would probably mean allowing the Targaryens who he hated to live.

[Craving Peaches]

13 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

How would they take the risk that he becomes another Aerys?

Because it appears that it is innate, not learned.

Edit: Why is this funny? It's true. Aerys was acting strangely even before Duskendale with all his weird megaprojects, mood swings, obsessive behaviour, paranoia and so on. Duskendale only exacerbated what was there, it did not create the madness.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Lee-Sensei]

8 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

I don't think he would be able to ignore his actual job so much if he wasn't King.

Besides, this would probably mean allowing the Targaryens who he hated to live.

I don't know what to say about this one. Robert was the Lord of the Stormlands for yeas before the Rebellion. He had most of the privileges of a king, but was also able to ride and compete in tourneys. I've seen no evidence that he wanted to be a king desperately. Maybe that's in the tv show. It's not in the books.

And he already did allow the Targaryens to live. He left Viserys and Daenerys alone for 14 years and Aemon alone forever. Even if he was the Lord of the Stormlands, what's stopping him from sending assassins after the Targaryens? He'd have the money to hire them.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Rosetta Stone]

Mance Rayder will rule the North.  Sansa isn't even capable of leading goats let alone people through tough times.  She lacks the mental capacity.  Rickon's only chance at it is if Wayman Manderly survives and can convince the North to support a human-eating cannibal.  Jon lacks the competence to earn the North for himself but he might be given the North by the Others since he will become one of their wights.  The next two leaders of the North will really be Mance Rayder and the Others when they arrive and wightify everybody, including Mance.   

[Craving Peaches]

6 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

She lacks the mental capacity.

Funny, since some people here lack the reading comprehension capacity to actually appreciate the text, which is why they come up with unsubstantiated fanfictionesque predictions about what is going to happen.

[kissdbyfire]

8 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

Mance Rayder will rule the North.  Sansa isn't even capable of leading goats let alone people through tough times. 
 

Sansa’s behaviour and actions during the Battle of the Blackwater contradict your silly statement, but it’s precisely what I’d expect from you so kudos for not ever disappointing this reader -who has actually read the books.

8 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

She lacks the mental capacity.

It seems she’s not alone.

8 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

  Rickon's only chance at it is if Wayman Manderly survives and can convince the North to support a human-eating cannibal. 
 

If you feel you must use redundancies you could say, ‘human eating cannibal that eats people and devours folks’. 

8 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

Jon lacks the competence to earn the North for himself but he might be given the North by the Others since he will become one of their wights. 

Does he really though? The text denies your statement but don’t let me stop you from making a fool w/ poor reading comprehension of yourself. 

8 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

The next two leaders of the North will really be Mance Rayder and the Others when they arrive and wightify everybody, including Mance.   

See above and have at it. There are new readers here that have yet to be introduced to your little posse’s idiotic behaviour. 

[csuszka1948]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sansa’s behaviour and actions during the Battle of the Blackwater contradict your silly statement, but it’s precisely what I’d expect from you so kudos for not ever disappointing this reader -who has actually read the books.

It seems she’s not alone.

If you feel you must use redundancies you could say, ‘human eating cannibal that eats people and devours folks’. 

Does he really though? The text denies your statement but don’t let me stop you from making a fool w/ poor reading comprehension of yourself. 

See above and have at it. There are new readers here that have yet to be introduced to your little posse’s idiotic behaviour. 

I think it's interesting that he calls Jon incompetent and praises Mance.

Mance became the leader of the wildlings and tried to lead them south to escape from the Others, but he failed. Jon also tried to make an alliance with the wildlings to help them escape from the Others (just in a more grounded way as the LC of the NW), but he might have been killed for it and failed (well, I don't think he did, but Winds is not out yet).

They were attempting almost the same thing just Jon with the legitimacy of the NW behind him and neither of them succeed so far, so on what basis does the OP make distinction between them?

 

It's also interesting because these kind of commenters tend to accuse Jon of stealing Arya's bride, but then shouldn't Mance (who carried out the act) should also be his accomplice?

 

I am just surprised that he named Mance as the future leader, I thought he expects a person like Ramsay in charge of the North.

Edited September 8, 2023 by csuszka1948

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I think it's interesting that he calls Jon incompetent and praises Mance.

I think ‘interesting’ is the polite way to describe it. 

10 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Mance became the leader of the wildlings and tried to lead them south to escape from the Others, but he failed. Jon also tried to make an alliance with the wildlings to help them escape from the Others (just in a more grounded way as the LC of the NW), but he might have been killed for it and failed (well, I don't think he did, but Winds is not out yet).

I don’t think he failed. I mean, there are thousands of free folk who followed Mother Mole and are now in dire straits but the vast majority of the remaining ff have not only come through to the ‘south’ but also committed to manning some of the NW castles and to fighting alongside the black brothers against the others and wights. Also I don’t really think Mance failed… I mean, he managed to unite the free folk and to get them to the Wall. And Jon did even better by getting them settled and cared for while also reinforcing the nw dwindling numbers. 

10 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

They were attempting almost the same thing just Jon with the legitimacy of the NW behind him and neither of them succeed so far, so on what basis does the OP make distinction between them?

Poor reading comprehension - if they’ve read the books at all that is. 

10 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

It's also interesting because these kind of commenters tend to accuse Jon of stealing Arya's bride, but then shouldn't Mance (who carried out the act) should also be his accomplice?

I assume you mean Ramsay’s bride… but yeah, the problem here is you’re expecting logic and consistency where there’s none to be found.

10 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I am just surprised that he named Mance as the future leader, I thought he expects a person like Ramsay in charge of the North.

 

Same here, given all the inane and ludicrous arguments in defence of Ramsay they make constantly. 

[SeanF]

On 9/5/2023 at 5:37 PM, Craving Peaches said:

That would be silly though, as Aegon could turn on them as soon as he reaches the age majority for killing his father. Isabella and Roger Mortimer did something similar with Edward II and III and it backfired when Edward III grew up as he had Roger executed in front of Isabella. Plus, they would be taking the risk that Aegon was mad like Aerys.

Mortimer grew too power-hungry.

There’s no reason to believe that Edward III disliked him or his mother, or objected to his father’s overthrow (in fact his father’s regime was so discredited, he had no option but to step up).  But Mortimer got very greedy, was reluctant to give up power as regent, and bullied Edward into executing his uncle Edward of Kent.  Mortimer could have lived out his days as a respected elder statesman.

Robert would have had about 12 years as regent, time to befriend Aegon, and Elia and the Dornish would likely have supported him.

OTOH, if the issue was debated at all by rebel leaders, most probably thought “why take the chance.”  Once Robert claimed the throne, things were always likely to go down the way they did.

[Craving Peaches]

28 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Mortimer grew too power-hungry.

There’s no reason to believe that Edward III disliked him or his mother, or objected to his father’s overthrow (in fact his father’s regime was so discredited, he had no option but to step up).  But Mortimer got very greedy, was reluctant to give up power as regent, and bullied Edward into executing his uncle Edward of Kent.  Mortimer could have lived out his days as a respected elder statesman.

Robert would have had about 12 years as regent, time to befriend Aegon, and Elia and the Dornish would likely have supported him.

OTOH, if the issue was debated at all by rebel leaders, most probably thought “why take the chance.”  Once Robert claimed the throne, things were always likely to go down the way they did.

And you don't think Edward III held any ill-will towards Mortimer for killing his father?

[SeanF]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

And you don't think Edward III held any ill-will towards Mortimer for killing his father?

Leave aside the whole business of the Fieschi letter, and assume Edward II was put to death.

Prince Edward, and Isabella had both committed treason, in Edward II’s eyes.  The choice was between his death and his revenge.  No, I don’t think he would have held it against Mortimer.

Lord Maltravers, who was widely believed to have been implicated in Edward II’s murder, was allowed to go into exile, and eventually pardoned.

Edited September 9, 2023 by SeanF

[Springwatch]

On 9/4/2023 at 11:26 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Why can't that be one of the girls?

Because then Bran and Rickon are probably dead. If Arya inherits, Sansa's probably dead as well. Isn't that the lesson from Aegon the Unlikely? So Arya the Unlikely is a bit of a nerve-wracking prospect too.

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Because then Bran and Rickon are probably dead. If Arya inherits, Sansa's probably dead as well. Isn't that the lesson from Aegon the Unlikely? So Arya the Unlikely is a bit of a nerve-wracking prospect too.

They could inherit if those above them are ineligible for some reason, unwilling, or are otherwise unavailable.  If they have a position elsewhere, or are married to  lord somewhere else, they might not be unavailable.  It is not too hard to think of scenarios where Sansa or even Arya could be potentially eligible.  I suspect that when the dust clears, there may well be a lot of positions that need filling and not enough people available to fill them.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 8/31/2023 at 2:36 PM, Odej said:

Sansa

Situation: hidden in Vale as Litterfinger's bastard daughter. Pros: recognized as Robb's heir after the supposed death of Bran and Rickon, a marriage of her to Harry Hardyng would get her the support of the Vale. Cons: she is still married to a Lannister, she is a female.

 

Rickon

Situation: walking around Skagos. Pro: male, supported by the Starks' wealthiest vassals, the Manderlys, who would offer their support to Stannis (who is going to fight against the Boltons for Winterfell) if the boy is found. Cons: too young and probably too wild.

 

Jon.

Situation: apparently dead, but with an almost certain return (whatever that may be). Pro: male and a will from the last king of the North legitimizing him as his heir. Cons: bastard, member of the Night's watch.

I'll stick with my first choice ARYA .

[BlackLightning]

At the very end of the story?

Rickon.

[Groo]

On 9/3/2023 at 2:12 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Honestly probably, by far the greatest leader in asoiaf. The loyalty she commands with former enemies like Hotpie and Lommy comes naturally, similarly she refuses to abandon her squad in Harrenhal or on the road once again proving her leadership qualities.
 

While the potential might be there, these are pretty small examples. Look at the huge differences in Jon and Arya's storylines. Jon's story arc is very explicitly about leadership: making hard decisions that affect large groups of people, his own personal desires to rule Winterfell, trying to get opposing groups to work together, dealing with conflicting agendas, feeling the need to not appear to be playing favorites, etc. Whether you think he's done a good job or a poor one, his whole story arc is centered on leadership. I don't think you can say anything like that about Arya's story. One could argue that your examples just show that Arya is good at making personal friends.

I approach the original question from just looking at the flow of the story. Think of the questions that people naturally ask and wonder about with Jon. Will he still lead the Nights Watch, assuming he's still alive or gets resurrected? Will he become King of the North? Will he unite the Wildings and the North? If he discovers his true parentage, would he want to claim the Iron Throne? Would he put himself before the Stark children? Would he put himself before Daenerys? Imagine how weird it would feel if Jon's story ended with him taking a ship to go sail the seas and have adventures. If Jon lives, he ends up with one of the top spots just because that's what his story has been about. I wouldn't say that's what Arya's story has been about.

 

[chrisdaw]

In the near term Jon will bloodily win and lead the north as KITN until his surrender to the Iron Throne, which will then probably see him named Lord of the North, then he will die towards the end of the series. Sansa may become Lady of the North on Jon's death and to end the series but if she does it will be a banishment of sorts forced on her and designed by others, the purpose of which will be to physically keep her from the powerful in King's Landing so that she may not manipulate and rule Westeros through them.

[chrisdaw]

On 9/25/2023 at 4:53 PM, Groo said:

I don't think you can say anything like that about Arya's story.

The concepts of mercy and justice are core components of leadership and Arya's storyline.

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The concepts of mercy and justice are core components of leadership and Arya's storyline.

She's also pretty good at getting people to do what she wants.  And the training she's getting in gathering and analyzing information will serve her well as well.