[Book Spoilers] Wheel of Time 3: Black Ajahpaloosa

[fionwe1987]

In the post episode discussion, Pike literally says this was like 3 episodes rolled into one. And that about sums it up, for me. So much of what didn't work in the finale would have worked if the story had that extra room to breathe. Amazon is shooting itself in the foot.

[IFR]

1 minute ago, fionwe1987 said:

In the post episode discussion, Pike literally says this was like 3 episodes rolled into one. And that about sums it up, for me. So much of what didn't work in the finale would have worked if the story had that extra room to breathe. Amazon is shooting itself in the foot.

Well, Amazon already shot themselves in the foot by not hiring competent showrunners or writers. Clearly they were on a roll with this and The Rings of Power.

Talented writers could make 8 episodes work. The writers don't need everyone else to apologize for them. Lots of good shows out there are made on the fly or with hectic scheduling problems, etc. Bad writing is bad writing.

[Poobah]

I did like the episode but it was a distinct step down from the previous two and felt rather messy with a number of questionable decisions.

Pros:

• Most of the Mat stuff
• Uno as a Hero
• Hopper's death was well done
• Lan getting a chance to do some badass warder shit, and Moiraine telling him that he was always her better was a sweet moment.
• Lanfear, always Lanfear.
• Moghedien was suitably creepy
• Most of Ishamael's stuff
• Rand Indiana Jones-ing Turak was a funny and smart way to get out of Rand not actually getting any training with his sword so far and then having his pre-destined battle with an actual Blademaster.

 

Cons:

• Nynaeve got totally fucking screwed this episode and I hate it.
• We need the Horn of Valere! Don't worry kids we've got the Horn of Valere at home
• Special effects, for the Heroes, for the Dragon, for Ishamael's extremely half-arsed attack on Egwene were all pretty shit.
• Ingtar's death
• Ishamael's death??? If this is the end of Fares Fares I'm going to be genuinely pissed. Total fail. Awful anticlimax.
• Rand as usual mostly not doing much.
• Egwene the golden child getting multiple heavy focus moments even at the expense of other characters.

Most of all this episode really showed the weakness of the 8 episode season format and the constraints of their budget. There was far too much that needed doing for a single hour of television

Edited October 6, 2023 by Poobah
formatting

[fionwe1987]

8 minutes ago, IFR said:

Well, Amazon already shot themselves in the foot by not hiring competent showrunners or writers. Clearly they were on a roll with this and The Rings of Power.

Talented writers could make 8 episodes work. The writers don't need everyone else to apologize for them. Lots of good shows out there are made on the fly or with hectic scheduling problems, etc. Bad writing is bad writing.

So the only problem is that the writers suck, and are too woke. Any factor that points to other issues must be ignored, because, of course, you Foretold this, and clearly, you're correct, and nothing can make you wrong. 

Hello, Elaida! Smart way to introduce the character, this.

Edited October 6, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Corvinus85]

2 minutes ago, Poobah said:

Most of all this episode really showed the weakness of the 8 episode season format and the constraints of their budget. There was far too much that needed doing for a single hour of television

Same criticism has been expressed for Ahsoka, and I agree. I know VFX is expensive, but GoT was generally able to do it with 10 episodes, while the last 2 seasons were rushed and sucked majorly (there are other criticisms, of course). And we have shows like Andor that got 12 episodes and it was amazing.

[fionwe1987]

On the Egwene thing: she's definitely Rafe's golden child. I'd argue she was RJ's too, if you go through the Companion, but that's my interpretation. The point is, though, she's a very different kind of golden child for RJ, and clearly, she's my favorite of RJ's characters in a different way than she is to Rafe.

I think what would have worked in that scene is Egwene hitting the ships, and destroying the Seanchan fleet. They should have had her continue to battle the rest of the fleet after the shield drops, and had Rand and Ishamael fight with their One Power enhanced swords. 

Alternatively, have Elayne reach the top and help Egwene after she struggles for a few moments to hold off Ishy. Either of those would have made some sense and still given the female characters more to do, which absolutely is an issue with the books. I remember all this speculation about Egwene being set up as Lanfear's antithesis, and Nynaeve as Semirhage's, but the books had pretty much all the Forsaken fall to the boys, in battle, which is just dumb.

That said, the show's solution is not working, either. I'm all for all the female characters seeing more action, but in a way that makes sense. This finale did not, and could have used the same basic premise and setup to deliver something better.

Edited October 6, 2023 by fionwe1987

[IFR]

12 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

So the only problem is that the writers suck, and are too woke. Any factor that points to other issues must be ignored, because, of course, you Foretold this, and clearly, you're correct, and nothing can make you wrong. 

Hello, Elaida! Smart way to introduce the character, this.

I appreciate you staying level headed in this conversation. Contracting a story, staying faithful to it, and producing something legitimately good is absolutely achievable. It was done as recently as with Oppenheimer. It just requires talent.

Maybe these writers would perform better with more episodes. I doubt it because they are bad writers, and I don't see that changing even with 20 episodes a season.

Naturally we can only speculate about something like this. I think it wouldn't matter. You think it would. It's moot. There will be 8 episodes a season until this show ends or is (likely) cancelled. The writers have no choice but to deal with that obstacle, and we as their audience are free to judge them on their performance, and nothing obligates us to give them a handicap (to use golf terminology) because every show has its own sets of limitations writers have to work around.

[David Selig]

5 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

In the post episode discussion, Pike literally says this was like 3 episodes rolled into one. And that about sums it up, for me. So much of what didn't work in the finale would have worked if the story had that extra room to breathe. Amazon is shooting itself in the foot.

Yeah, the limited screentime for the season is a major problem. Especially when the writers were trying to develop not just the main Light side characters, but also the main bad guys this season. There are just too many important characters for a show with 8 episodes per season and a lot of plot to cover in every one.

The show writers have clearly been clearly more interested in their female characters, especially Moiraine and Egwene, than in the ta'veren trio so far. I don't think this makes the show "woke", whatever that mean, but it's a pretty clear trend. I am fine with the show being less Rand-centric than the Books 1 and 2 are and I like the Supergirls plotlines more than most readers of the series, but I think things went too far in the other direction in the show.

I wonder when Elayne learned that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. Did Nynaeve told her that when they were climbing the tower? Or was she completely confused what the hell was going on there?

 

[fionwe1987]

50 minutes ago, IFR said:

I appreciate you staying level headed in this conversation. Contracting a story, staying faithful to it, and producing something legitimately good is absolutely achievable. It was done as recently as with Oppenheimer. It just requires talent.

Maybe these writers would perform better with more episodes. I doubt it because they are bad writers, and I don't see that changing even with 20 episodes a season.

Naturally we can only speculate about something like this. I think it wouldn't matter. You think it would. It's moot. There will be 8 episodes a season until this show ends or is (likely) cancelled. The writers have no choice but to deal with that obstacle, and we as their audience are free to judge them on their performance, and nothing obligates us to give them a handicap (to use golf terminology) because every show has its own sets of limitations writers have to work around.

On Oppenheimer: I loved the movie, but the movie also cut off important stuff, with the important distinction of being real events. 

And while I wouldn't call Nolan anything close to anti-woke, or even particularly sexist compared to his colleagues, and would correctly point to trying to fit such things into a 3 hour movie, but the movie's treatment of the actual female physicists who played a role was awful. To have a movie about the atom bomb without Lise Meitner even being mentioned is a spectacular miss. The woman literally figured out what was going on in Bethe's experiments while on a walk in a new country she'd just escaped to, wasn't credited in the paper, and didn't fucking get the Nobel, even though the committee didn't have the excuse that she was dead. How is it ok for the movie to continue with this absurdity, and write her out?

I was also personally miffed that we didn't get to see Fermi drop his little bits of paper and approximate the yield of the bomb. Its the coolest and most practical moment from that day, and its been written about, and Fermi's approximations have also been worked out, and it is the one piece of science there that anyone should be able to understand.

The point I'm trying to make is, Oppenheimer has plenty of issues, but those issues are at least in part about movie length, not just about the specific political agendas of the writing team.

When you're looking at the show as a reader, if you think the fact that the books are long, and the show is short doesn't have any impact on the story, that's fine. Its a nonsensical opinion, but I don't really see the point of discussing this if you're not going to move past it.

50 minutes ago, David Selig said:

The show writers have clearly been clearly more interested in their female characters, especially Moiraine and Egwene, than in the ta'veren trio so far. I don't think this makes the show "woke", whatever that mean, but it's a pretty clear trend. I am fine with the show being less Rand-centric than the Books 1 and 2 are and I like the Supergirls plotlines more than most readers of the series, but I think things went too far in the other direction in the show.

Agreed. I think its fine to have the female characters have more action, but not in the way the show is handling it, and not in the way it is making the ta'veren storylines rushed and flat. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Corvinus85]

In conclusion of season 2. S2 > S1. Even with taking into account the Covid shutdowns and required rewrites, you can look at most episodes side by side and S2 is still better. Both seasons had their best roughly in the middle, and again, S2 > S1.

That being said, there are still plenty of flaws, and hopefully the show can continue to improve. My opinion of the show somewhat mirrors my initial impressions of the books. I had trouble getting into The Eye of the World, even dropped it at one point, but then after finishing I went straight to TGH, which was much better. And the book series continued to improve though it did peak with books 4-5, with some later ones being pretty good, too. 

And they brought back the title sequence for the finale! Why? I hope they have a title sequence for season 3, but I want them to update it because it's too Aes Sedai centric.

[fionwe1987]

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

In conclusion of season 2. S2 > S1. Even with taking into account the Covid shutdowns and required rewrites, you can look at most episodes side by side and S2 is still better. Both seasons had their best roughly in the middle, and again, S2 > S1.

That being said, there are still plenty of flaws, and hopefully the show can continue to improve. My opinion of the show somewhat mirrors my initial impressions of the books. I had trouble getting into The Eye of the World, even dropped it at one point, but then after finishing I went straight to TGH, which was much better. And the book series continued to improve though it did peak with books 4-5, with some later ones being pretty good, too. 

Yeah, there's room for improvement, but also signs of improvement. Actual room to expand the story would be good, too.

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

And they brought back the title sequence for the finale! Why? I hope they have a title sequence for season 3, but I want them to update it because it's too Aes Sedai centric.

Yeah weird they only had it in the episode that could have most used those additional seconds. Agree on the Aes Sedai centrism, also. And I'm not a huge fan of the music for it.

[IFR]

7 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

And while I wouldn't call anything close to Nolan anti-woke, or even particularly sexist compared to his colleagues, and would correctly point to trying to fit such things into a 3 hour movie, but the movie's treatment of the actual female physicists who played a role was awful. To have a movie about the atom bomb without Lise Meitner even being mentioned is a spectacular miss. The woman literally figured out what was going on in Bethe's experiments while on a walk in a new country she'd just escaped to.

The movie is based on The American Prometheus. You know how many times Lise Meitner was mentioned in that book? She wasn't. Otto Hahn was mentioned a few times, so perhaps you would consider not name checking him as a huge oversight.

The movie was about Oppenheimer, not the development of the nuclear bomb.

Many, many, many important individuals were involved in this project. They were ancillary to Oppenheimer himself. The movie focused on faithfully bringing in all the major events from the book and cutting other things. No talk of Oppenheimer's father and mother, who were significant figures in his life, but not necessary for the story that was told in the movie.

I don't consider tokenism as an important quality for a movie to be good.

[fionwe1987]

13 minutes ago, IFR said:

The movie is based on The American Prometheus. You know how many times Lise Meitner was mentioned in that book? She wasn't. Otto Hahn was mentioned a few times, so perhaps you would consider not name checking him as a huge oversight.

You do realize these are real events, and that the book itself is an imperfect rendering of these events? Nor is the movie a slavish adherent to the book in plenty of other ways. 

13 minutes ago, IFR said:

The movie was about Oppenheimer, not the development of the nuclear bomb.

Yeah, and the real Oppenheimer, who was, after all, a real person who didn't know everything, benefitted from the knowledge of other experts he met and read. The movie doesn't ignore this basic reality of Oppenheimer's existence, by and large, which is why it is so much better than the typical science movie. Which is why Meitner's exemption is bizarre. You do know that for a while, in the 50s, Meitner was called the Mother of the Atomic bomb in the media, and Oppenheimer the father? With the crucial difference that even though Meitner could follow the logic to a chain reaction just as well as Oppenheimer (and in fact, did), she also said she'd have nothing to do with building a bomb, and explicitly rejected being associated with it and being called the Mother of the Bomb?

Gee, seems kiiiinda relevant to Oppenheimer's story in the movie, given that he did choose to build a bomb, and was instrumental in its design? Is it unimportant to the story that others consciously made the opposite choice, even when they were actually in the middle of it more so than Oppenheimer, and had every reason to want the end of Nazi Germany as a Jewish refugee from there?

Of course, you're welcome to the opposite opinion, but please don't hold up Oppenheimer as an example here, then. 

13 minutes ago, IFR said:

Many, many, many important individuals were involved in this project. They were ancillary to Oppenheimer himself. The movie focused on faithfully bringing in all the major events from the book and cutting other things. No talk of Oppenheimer's father and mother, who were significant figures in his life, but not necessary for the story that was told in the movie.

I don't consider tokenism as an important quality for a movie to be good.

You tokenize that which is important, then reject its potential inclusion as tokenism. Then do the reverse when it comes to analyzing the show. Fascinating.

Edited October 6, 2023 by fionwe1987

[IFR]

18 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

You do realize these are real events, and that the book itself is an imperfect rendering of these events? Nor is the movie a slavish adherent to the book in plenty of other ways. 

Yeah, and the real Oppenheimer, who was, after all, a real person who didn't know everything, benefitted from the knowledge of other experts he met and read. The movie doesn't ignore this basic reality of Oppenheimer's existence, by and large, which is why it is so much better than the typical science movie. Which is why Meitner's exemption is bizarre. You do know that for a while, in the 50s, Meitner was called the Mother of the Atomic bomb in the media, and Oppenheimer the father? With the crucial difference that even though Meitner could follow the logic to a chain reaction just as well as Oppenheimer (and in fact, did), she also said she'd have nothing to do with building a bomb, and explicitly rejected being associated with it and being called the Mother of the Bomb?

Gee, seems kiiiinda relevant to Oppenheimer's story in the movie, given that he did choose to build a bomb, and was instrumental in its design? Is it unimportant to the story that others consciously made the opposite choice, even when they were actually in the middle of it more so than Oppenheimer, and had every reason to want the end of Nazi Germany as a Jewish refugee from there?

Of course, you're welcome to the opposite opinion, but please don't hold up Oppenheimer as an example here, then. 

You tokenize that which is important, then reject its potential inclusion as tokenism. Then do the reverse when it comes to analyzing the show. Fascinating.

Strassmann and Hahn were essential in the experimental component of fissioning, Meitner was essential in that the information was relayed to her and she knew what it meant and they were able to publish. Many people were able to grasp the implication of a chain reaction from that point. Whether it was feasible to utilize as a weapon required heavy experimentation on cross sections to even begin to answer.

Fermi was important in developing a reactor. Rutherford was important in understanding alpha decay and nuclear bombardment. The Curies were important to understand radioactivity. The British were enormously important in the early understanding of the bomb. There were hundreds of vital individuals, and a three hour movie can't fairly address every one of them.

You know what the movie didn't do? Radically alter the source material to fabricate its own material, and wander in the weeds out of Nolan's self indulgence. He could have had his own Moiraine type side plot, where Kitty spent twenty minutes consulting for the CIA or something else Judkins would love.

I absolutely disagree with what you consider important. What was important made it into the movie. Oppenheimer should be held as a standard for adaptations.

This is derailing the thread, so if you want to continue this discussion we may do so in the Oppenheimer thread.

Edited October 6, 2023 by IFR

[fionwe1987]

I have no interest in discussing Oppenheimer in greater detail with you. Thanks. Ignoring history is not a good way to analyze the movie. 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by fionwe1987

[IFR]

4 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

I have no interest in discussing Oppenheimer in greater detail with you. Thanks. Ignoring history is not a good way to analyze the movie. 

 

All right. Pulitzer Prize winning book The American Prometheus was ignoring history because it didn't mention Lise Meitner, and you think Nolan wasn't adapting that book, he was making a broadscope movie about the nuclear bomb?

I'm fine agreeing to disagree with you here.

Edited October 6, 2023 by IFR

[Corvinus85]

So going back to other disappointments - the Seanchan.

Way too weak militarily. The damane are their main weapon, but the Ever Victorious Army has plenty of other effective weapons. Sad we didn't get a glimpse of one of the exotic creatures and that the soldiers had paper armor and crap fighting skills. 

[fionwe1987]

4 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

So going back to other disappointments - the Seanchan.

Way too weak militarily. The damane are their main weapon, but the Ever Victorious Army has plenty of other effective weapons. Sad we didn't get a glimpse of one of the exotic creatures and that the soldiers had paper armor and crap fighting skills. 

To be fair, none of their tactics or the use of their other weapons plays much of a role in the books in tGH either. They head out of the city to fight the Whitecloaks, take a few whallops from Egwene before Nynaeve stops her, and then proceed to be destroyed by the Heroes. I don't think the Raken play any role at all, though I think a few grolm are mentioned?

[Corvinus85]

7 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

To be fair, none of their tactics or the use of their other weapons plays much of a role in the books in tGH either. They head out of the city to fight the Whitecloaks, take a few whallops from Egwene before Nynaeve stops her, and then proceed to be destroyed by the Heroes. I don't think the Raken play any role at all, though I think a few grolm are mentioned?

Grolm do appear, since after our first encounter with one, we get the portal stone world inhabited only by grolm.

I want to say either torm or corlm make an appearance. And a result of the Falme disaster we know some s'redit make their way to menagerie.

But besides all that, overall militarily they weren't much. In the books it's mentioned they fought off both the Domani and the Taraboners, while here they seemingly sit in one small city for months. What were they waiting for? I suppose Ishy kept them contained just to prepare for Rand.

[Jace, Extat]

Raken are important in the books. They extend the Seanchan reach and allow them to assault places that should be beyond the front lines.