[Book Spoilers] Wheel of Time 3: Black Ajahpaloosa

[SpaceChampion]

1 minute ago, Gertrude said:

So if the girls go back to the Tower, how do she and Rand hook up again for travel?

She signs up for the foreign exchange program with the University of Rhuidean.

 

Maybe Rand uses a Portal Stone to get to Rhuidean, only to see Egwene who has been raised Accepted in the mean time already there when he arrives 3 years later.

[fionwe1987]

The discussion here makes clear there's no direct path from Falme to the Waste that works. I think they'll head to the Waste, but only mid-season. 

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

The discussion here makes clear there's no direct path from Falme to the Waste that works. I think they'll head to the Waste, but only mid-season. 

I agree. And as I said, Tear + Callandor by midpoint of season 3 is an option.

There is also Min's vision of Mat stabbing Rand. If that happens in Falme, Rand will need healing. Moiraine might want to take him to Tar Valon then, maybe Lanfear intervenes and patches him up, but not completely. I said before that this could be the never-healing wound that Rand receives in Falme, instead of the one he gets when he fights Ishy. Then Rand in his stubbornness and guided by prophecies and visions goes to Tear to claim Callandar where he meets a greater contingent of Aiel led by Rhuarc (if cast). Then he goes to the Waste. 

The girls return to TV and Egwene and Elayne become Accepted. Liandrin flees and steals a dream ter'angreal. (They can add more minor Black Ajah characters if they want as per the book). Verin helps Egwene with acquiring a dream ter'angreal to start entering TAR. Either combine Tanchico with Tear at this point with Moghedien wanting to capture Rand with the male a'dam or have it in a different location. Yes, I know another Forsaken trap for Rand. I mean, he's the DR they need to take him down or turn him, so more traps and ambushes are a given. What exactly is Ishy's trap for Rand in Falme? Besides the bait he's lain, I mean. Kill him, forcibly turn him, what? Whereas with Moghedien and the male a'dam it would be clear and Egwene certainly would be the one to want to stop that plot. But before she can the Aiel Wise Ones call, so it's left for Nynaeve and Elayne to deal with that in Tear/Tanchico. 

The only character who can go straight to their next major location from Falme is Perrin. He might start by accompanying the others then rumos + wolf sights and TAR let him learn what's happening in the Two Rivers and he returns home knowing the demons he must face. He meets Faile along the way or even in the Two Rivers just like Lord Luc.

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Corvinus85

[Gertrude]

I'm calling my shot now. Tear isn't in S3 and the girls don't make it back to the Tower. The only real reason they have to go back is the Test, but Nyneave's rings makes me think she doesn't make it back, and thus none of them do. That hurts my brain a bit, but that's my gut.

[fionwe1987]

The rings don't solve much. In the books, they help the Accepted pretend to be Aes Sedai. But in the show, there's no ring when you're raised to Accepted (that I remember), and since you need a stone of the color of your Ajah anyway, it makes sense Accepted don't get them. So yes, Ryma's rings can allow them to pretend to be Aes Sedai, but that would have been needed anyway, since the rings have Ajah-specific stones. 

Also, Liandrin can't return to the Tower, can she? Anvaere revealed Barthanes to be a Darkfriend. Ergo, she knows Liandrin is one, too, and I cannot imagine she's sitting on this information while letting the Queen know her son is a Darkfriend. I think Liandrin's escape is going to be she disappears from the Sun Palace.

I think we'll get a return from the Wondergirls to the Tower simply because the coup works less well, otherwise. When are Egwene and Nynaeve to even meet Elaida? Their immediate rejection of being loyal to the Tower is because they have met her, been questioned by her, and know that she will deal with Rand horribly.

The coup requires setup, and that setup is better if the Wondergirls are in the middle of it, and their departure sets it off, than having us spend time in the Tower with no main characters at all.

On the flip side, there's a lot of what Rand does in the Waste that I don't see making it to the show. After he goes through the columns in Rhuidean, he goes to Cold Rock Hold, and there's all the political maneuvering around collecting the other clans, before he Travels to Rhuidean again chasing Asmodean.

They can instead have those events play out in a more compact way. Have all the clans present at Rhuidean already, and go from the walk through the columns, the revelation and breaking of the Aiel, and the fight with the Choedan Kal that makes Rhuidean habitable, all happen over 2 or so episodes. That leaves time for the Stone and the Tower, before the climaxes at Rhuidean and the battle of Emond's Field. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Gertrude]

True that the Wastes can be compacted. It really is hard to shake off pre-concieved notions  I don't mind compacted, but Lord, just do it right. I do think they need the columns to land, and for the Shaido to be Shaido to show how devastating this news is and how Rand will shake the foundations of the world, starting with the Aiel. (of course the Shaido don't have to hang around forever, but I do think they play a part for a while). If we want to fit in Tear, then Tear is at least as close as Cairhien - easy enough for the Shaido to attack there instead. (I mean I have no idea where anything is in the Waste, so north or south makes no difference to me. I also can't exactly remember why the Shaido attacked Cairhien in particular).

The point I'm making with the rings Nyn has is that they used screentime to make sure she has them. They didn't have to do that. If Nyneave gets to the Tower, there is no way she doesn't give them back to the flame. If she does, then why waste precious time giving them to her in the first place?

Elayne would know Elaida, so in a pinch, that could be conveyed through her. Yeah, I want them in the Tower too, but wasn't that the point of trying to combine book 2 & 3? That they repeated story beats? Girls go to the Tower, girls get a quest and leave, shenanigans ensue. Rinse, repeat. The Black jah hunt is already underway without them, so that doesn't need doing.

I know we're all just speculating and trying to puzzle it out. Maybe the finale will give us some sort of clue (but probably not.)

[Corvinus85]

4 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

If we want to fit in Tear, then Tear is at least as close as Cairhien - easy enough for the Shaido to attack there instead. (I mean I have no idea where anything is in the Waste, so north or south makes no difference to me. I also can't exactly remember why the Shaido attacked Cairhien in particular).

Jangai Pass is the main pass through the central Spine and it leads into Cairhien. Plus they're the treekillers. That being said, sure attack Tear, though I think once the Aiel spill over into the Westlands, it doesn't matter that much where the battles will be.

5 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

The point I'm making with the rings Nyn has is that they used screentime to make sure she has them. They didn't have to do that. If Nyneave gets to the Tower, there is no way she doesn't give them back to the flame. If she does, then why waste precious time giving them to her in the first place?

It was a nice call back to the melting cauldron and there was the theme of Aes Sedai character - strength and sacrifice. It can also be linked to Egwene returning the rings she took from Valda in season 1.

[fionwe1987]

They better do the columns right, not just in terms of VFX, but as an emotional tale. Definitely a high point of the series.

In the books, the Jangai Pass from Cairhein the the Waste is the largest pass through the Spine of the World, and is the way through which the Silk Path goes to Shara. Rhuidean, the Shaido holds, and Alcair Dal, where Rand reveals the history of the Aiel to them which causes Couladin to rebel, are all near the Silk Path.

None of this needs to remain in the books, so yes, they can attack Tear, instead of Cairhein. Cairhein just works better, because of the history of the Aiel War, but remember, this happens in book 5, not 4, so I dunno that Tear's presence or absence in season 3 is affected by this. 

Quote

wasn't that the point of trying to combine book 2 & 3? That they repeated story beats? Girls go to the Tower, girls get a quest and leave, shenanigans ensue. Rinse, repeat.

Sure, but isn't that like saying Harry Potter repeats story beats by having the characters take a train to the same school every year?

Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve are students. It's not that repetitive to have them go back to the place where they're supposed to learn. It is repeated exactly once, and this time, the girls leave fully aware of the scope of their peril. Further, they interact with the Tower's politics, and their actions do lead to the coup, in part, so I'm not sure the broad similarity of location and characters justifies calling this a repeated story beat. 

The Accepted test for Egwene is the first time she comes face to face with the "Rand or the Tower" question, and I think this is important both to explain why they're gonna break up one season after Rand makes a cross continental journey to save Egwene, and to explain Egwene's character arc going into the future. As much as Nynaeve's test helped establish her motivations and arc, Egwene's test, in the books, is far more consequential plot wise. It's where we learn about the ability of channelers to be turned to the Dark, for one.

And sure, all this can be scattered elsewhere, but why? If some set of events in the Tower play such a major role in the rest of the plot, there needs to be more of a reason than "same people in same location leaving soon to another location" to cut it out.

Hopefully, as you said, the finale will clarify things a bit. Rand's going to meet Avinendha, which he doesn't, at this stage, in the books. So if he shows signs of going somewhere with her, or if Moiraine thinks Mat needs further healing in the Tower, etc we'll be able to speculate better. 

ETA: I'd definitely expect a time jump that puts Rand closer to Tear/the Waste and Egwene and co in the Tower at the start of season 3. The trip from Falme isn't shown for any of them in any great detail. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Gertrude]

The fact that they took the time to show Egwene returning the rings at all just makes me think I'm right about this :p

As for the girls returning to the Tower, we will see in time. I was just making my call early to gain all the glory when it turns out I was right all along!

Edited October 3, 2023 by Gertrude

[fionwe1987]

1 minute ago, Gertrude said:

The fact that they took the time to show Egwene returning the rings at all just makes me think I'm right about this :p

You're right Ryma's rings are going to be important, but they locked themselves into that when they added the Ajah-specific stones to the rings, so I don't think this necessarily proves they won't be returning to the Tower. 

1 minute ago, Gertrude said:

As for the girls returning to the Tower, we will see in time. I was just making my call early to gain all the glory when it turns out I was right all along!

That sword cuts both ways  

[Poobah]

Accepted in the show do get (stoneless) rings. There's a scene where Egwene visits Nynaeve in her much nicer room and fusses over her new ring.

[Gertrude]

11 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

That sword cuts both ways  

I'm willing to take on that risk.

[Maia]

50 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

The Accepted test for Egwene is the first time she comes face to face with the "Rand or the Tower" question, and I think this is important both to explain why they're gonna break up one season after Rand makes a cross continental journey to save Egwene, and to explain Egwene's character arc going into the future.

 

If they want to include it in some form, they might just send Egwene through the apprentice ter'angreal in Rhuidean, along with Moiraine and Avi. It would have even more gravitas. Also, IIRC in the books they were falling out of love - if their relationship was supposed to be that - even before her test.

In the show, Egwene has mentally buried Rand, and he needs to keep her at arm's length because of Lanfear.

Frankly, the girls returning to the Tower just to leave again immediately didn't work that well even in the books. In the show they already have the rings for their impersonation and if season 3 is mainly TSR, then Egwene needs to be in the Waste.

[Corvinus85]

14 minutes ago, Maia said:

In the show, Egwene has mentally buried Rand, and he needs to keep her at arm's length because of Lanfear.

Not good start to that with the Dreamworld scene. 

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

Accepted in the show do get (stoneless) rings. There's a scene where Egwene visits Nynaeve in her much nicer room and fusses over her new ring.

I missed that. But if they're stoneless, then the need for Ryma's rings is still explained by the need for an Ajah stone, even if they do return to the Tower. 

On the flip side, in the books, Siuan did expect them to make the claim, and didn't tell them not to. They could just have her give them rings that will help them pretend, along with her letter of writ. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by fionwe1987

[karaddin]

Another option is that Egwene and Elayne go back but Nynaeve doesn't and she still has the rings. I'm sure you can manufacture a reason she feels she needs to stick to Rand through the season skip and have them meet up again early in the next season after E^2 leave the tower (possibly for a different reason to the black Ajah hunt).

Maybe it's as simple as Rand needs a ton of repeat healing and after the way things have gone this season they don't trust letting any other Aes Sedai near him.

[karaddin]

And after all that discussion I forgot what I actually came into the thread to post

https://reddit.com/r/WoTshow/s/PJwQIs1ecY

I'd actually forgotten that gesture was a thing so needed the explanation, I don't think I want this though lol.

[Corvinus85]

46 minutes ago, karaddin said:

And after all that discussion I forgot what I actually came into the thread to post

https://reddit.com/r/WoTshow/s/PJwQIs1ecY

I'd actually forgotten that gesture was a thing so needed the explanation, I don't think I want this though lol.

Wow. I didn't notice it in the show, but once I saw it here I remembered. That might be an awesome nugget if true.

Was this in the courtyard with all the other Aes Sedai and Warders? It would make sense he might do it there.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Corvinus85

[karaddin]

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

Wow. I didn't notice it in the show, but once I saw it here I remembered. That might be an awesome nugget if true.

My wife had a question mark over him most of the season due to the comment about Alanna mostly leaving the bond masked, I didn't think anything of it and was hoping she was wrong.

[SpaceChampion]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

And after all that discussion I forgot what I actually came into the thread to post

https://reddit.com/r/WoTshow/s/PJwQIs1ecY

I'd actually forgotten that gesture was a thing so needed the explanation, I don't think I want this though lol.

The thing is that actor is a huge fan of the books and might have slipped it in to troll all of us.