[Book Spoilers] Wheel of Time 3: Black Ajahpaloosa

[Arakasi]

Yeah I agree the whole decisions of Moiraine and Siuan in the first three books makes no sense in light of what they learn in New Spring. Not the first time Jordan wrote stuff that invalidated earlier work but it’s something he kept doing. His work wasn’t very consistent in that.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Arakasi

[Maltaran]

3 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Callandor has flaws which can assist with interesting character development for Rand, but also some advantages besides being a super-powerful sa'angreal. The Stone of Tear itself is cool, an ancient fortress that never fell. And Tear is Rand's first power base. While Rand is revealed as DR in Falme, a lot of people only see him as another False Dragon. It's the taking of Tear and Callandor that make more people believe he's the real deal or at least take him more seriously.

But that was because in the books RJ kept repeating the prophecies about the Stone not falling until the Dragon took Callandor, and how everyone knew this was what would prove he wasn’t just another false Dragon. The show hasn’t mentioned this at all.

[Arakasi]

The point is you can’t have two seasons in a row of a show about chasing some magic Mcguffin and heading into a trap to only get it and then beat Ishamael in a duel. It’s just not filmable. Just move on to Rhuidean.

[Slurktan]

6 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Callandor has flaws which can assist with interesting character development for Rand, but also some advantages besides being a super-powerful sa'angreal. The Stone of Tear itself is cool, an ancient fortress that never fell. And Tear is Rand's first power base. While Rand is revealed as DR in Falme, a lot of people only see him as another False Dragon. It's the taking of Tear and Callandor that make more people believe he's the real deal or at least take him more seriously.

As I said everything callandor does in the books can be done elsewhere on another saangreal, they will not be making something on the show that people will associate with a magic lightsaber.  The stone is a fortress that never fell but it is completely and utterly pointless in the last battle and so should be cut in its entirety. Falme is now his power base that he abandons for the waste.  A lot of people see him as a false dragon in the books why does that have to be in the show?

[Poobah]

I feel like Tear is important for a bunch of reasons but most of them aren't necessarily specific to Tear but rather what Rand going there represents and accomplishes and how it acts as a key moment in his character arc.

The show has and is already dealing with the arc of Rand ceasing to run from his destiny and accepting that he is indeed the Dragon Reborn so that at least isn't a factor, but it does represent rather more than that. It's a transition for Rand from just some guy - even "just some guy who appeared in he sky fighting the devil that one time" is not really of much note and a rumour at best to many people - to instead becoming the King of Tear, somebody concrete and undeniable that absolutely no one can ignore. It's also a transition point for Rand into the role he takes on throughout the middle of the series, where he gains confidence that develops towards arrogance and hubris as a he becomes a ruler of nations, conqueror, tyrant, and empire builder who few dare to oppose - and I agree in this that it does rather make sense to push it back until after he picks up the Aiel for pacing and arc reasons.

Like it or not Wheel of Time has a bunch of Mcguffins that need collecting and I absolutely disagree that Callandor is something you can just discard. It's iconic. And whether or not they go to Tear there are a bunch of characters and plots which are introduced between TDR and TSR that do need to be gotten started - we've had a bit of a hint that maybe the twisted redstone doorway isn't going to be there (I'm wondering if they have just the one door in Rhuidean that mashes both sets of 'finn together?) but Rand needs to meet Elayne, Perrin needs to meet both Faile and Berelain, Mat has to start getting lucky, doing heroic things, and playing with gunpowder etc.

[Arakasi]

Rand can meet Elayne after Falme. Berelain can just be cut entirely. Mats being lucky has nothing to do with Tear (they have said Rafe is going to get in the fight with Galad and Gawyn which hints at a return to the white tower for him). And to finish it off gunpowder doesn’t need to be in the show at all.  Very few of those things you say have to happen actually have to happen. They’re very ancillary to the story.

[Corvinus85]

3 hours ago, Maltaran said:

But that was because in the books RJ kept repeating the prophecies about the Stone not falling until the Dragon took Callandor, and how everyone knew this was what would prove he wasn’t just another false Dragon. The show hasn’t mentioned this at all.

The show can take its time and has already revealing prophecies piece meal. I believe the Karatheon Cycle was briefly mentioned in season 1. So there is no reason why it can't reveal "the next prophetic step" next season or at the end of this season.

58 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

As I said everything callandor does in the books can be done elsewhere on another saangreal, they will not be making something on the show that people will associate with a magic lightsaber.  The stone is a fortress that never fell but it is completely and utterly pointless in the last battle and so should be cut in its entirety. Falme is now his power base that he abandons for the waste.  A lot of people see him as a false dragon in the books why does that have to be in the show?

OK, it doesn't quite have to be shaped like a classic sword. They can still call it Callandor.

1 hour ago, Arakasi said:

The point is you can’t have two seasons in a row of a show about chasing some magic Mcguffin and heading into a trap to only get it and then beat Ishamael in a duel. It’s just not filmable. Just move on to Rhuidean.

But the show has hardly followed TGH to the letter. The girls' story is the one closest to the book. Rand did his own thing, even covered his desire from TDR to get away from those he loves, vastly different story for Mat, too, while the hunt for the Horn was barely there. Part of Perrin's story from TDR has been covered. The only thing is the trap that Ishy seems to have setup, though it's largely unclear how it works. If anything, setting a trap for Rand to grab an object would be more obvious to the audience than what the show has done so far with Falme.

And if they changed TGH's formula so much, they can do the same with TDR. Maybe even have Callandor and Tear complete by the middle of the season and then off to Rhuidean. I suspect season 3 would also show more of the Aiel.

 

Btw, the show has not explained why the title of "Dragon." The Dragon's banner hasn't shown up yet. I wonder if Rand will even get the tattoos.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Corvinus85

[Arakasi]

They already did this year Rand getting away from the people he loves. That’s already handled so that pretty much cuts his arc from TDR (which he is barely in anyway) All they really need to do is find a reason to get Perrin to want to go to the two rivers and that’s it. Mat will go back to the white tower to get healed. The other thing needing setup is Elayne and Nyneaves plot but that’s about it.

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

Mat has to start getting lucky, doing heroic things, and playing with gunpowder etc.

On the one hand you'd want to get lucky before playing with gunpowder. On the other "getting lucky" could sound like he becomes the ladies man some readers seem to think he is. Which I guess you'd also want to do before you start paying with gunpowder.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Arakasi said:

They already did this year Rand getting away from the people he loves. That’s already handled so that pretty much cuts his arc from TDR (which he is barely in anyway) All they really need to do is find a reason to get Perrin to want to go to the two rivers and that’s it. Mat will go back to the white tower to get healed. The other thing needing setup is Elayne and Nyneaves plot but that’s about it.

I know. What I'm saying is just like how they changed a lot TGH, they can change a lot of TDR and still include Callandor and  Tear.

[Gertrude]

14 hours ago, Poobah said:

we've had a bit of a hint that maybe the twisted redstone doorway isn't going to be there (I'm wondering if they have just the one door in Rhuidean that mashes both sets of 'finn together?) but Rand needs to meet Elayne, Perrin needs to meet both Faile and Berelain, Mat has to start getting lucky, doing heroic things, and playing with gunpowder etc.

When Ingtar and Loial were talking, Ingtar mentioned that the Horn was being kept in a room with other oddities. That detail didn't need to be mentioned, so I am hoping the doorway is in Falme. Right now, things are set up for things to continue onto book 4 pretty well. If they do the coup in the first few episodes next season, then I can even see how Min gets corralled into being there by having Liandrin or another Aes sedai taking her in hand for her viewings, depending on how widely it's known.

That means that no one goes back to the Tower and I can only see two reasons for them to - the girls Accepted test and Mat's quarterstaff fight.  I would like to see the fight, but it doesn't need to be at the Tower and it doesn't even need to be Galad and Gawyn - just someone trained. The girls should at least be accepted for their later positions to make sense, but it's entirely possible they work around it. Dunno. If the coup is early in the season, the girls could be sent to Salidar and then Egwene dreams an urgent quest to them for whatever their plot will be next season. I am not convinced it's Tanchico, but I do think it's Moggy.

Faile can be in Falme, and please cut Berelain. Do not need. Mat's luck can be a part of his package deal in Rhuidean in a pinch.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Gertrude

[Corvinus85]

The quarterstaff fight can be in Caemlyn instead of the Tower. Of course, it also depends how much they want to do with Gawyn and Galad. Gawyn played a fairly important role in the Tower coup. Egwene needs to meet them, too, not just Mat. But regardless of location, what I want to see from Mat before the quarterstaff fight is a certain disdain for aristocracy. It would add more impact to that fight. Otherwise, like Gertrude said, it can be against anyone.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Corvinus85

[Arakasi]

15 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I know. What I'm saying is just like how they changed a lot TGH, they can change a lot of TDR and still include Callandor and  Tear.

They could but making a giant stone fortress is expensive. So it would be CGI which is also expensive. (Or they’re just going to have a bunch of interior shots in a fortress with grey hallways) I don’t see the value return in making a scene which is narratively the same as the end of TGH and costs them a bunch of money and is only used once. Imo put that money to making the Wastes more impressive.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Arakasi

[Myrddin]

Have they really mentioned that Matt isn't healed from the dagger at this point?

As far that show goes, there's no need for him to go back to the Tower (as much as I'll miss the 2 on 1 duel). He can just go with Rand to the Waste.

The trick will be how to get Egwene back to the Tower to become Accepted before starting her Aiel Dreamer training.

[Poobah]

Thinking about Elayne and Egwene only being Novices I just had a thought that if they aren't going to be returning to the tower then that maybe why they had Ryma give them all those rings from the dead/captured Aes Sedai, though bringing them to the tower for the ritual melting we've seen may also be what gives them the motivation to return.

[Arakasi]

I thought when Moiraine fixed him up she made some comment that if he came into contact with the dagger again it would be bad. So between that and the visions of Min and such I don’t think he’s recovered from the dagger.

[Gertrude]

8 hours ago, Poobah said:

Thinking about Elayne and Egwene only being Novices I just had a thought that if they aren't going to be returning to the tower then that maybe why they had Ryma give them all those rings from the dead/captured Aes Sedai, though bringing them to the tower for the ritual melting we've seen may also be what gives them the motivation to return.

I think they will need those rings to pass as full aes sedai later on.

edit: I reread your comment and I think I misunderstood and we're actually on the same page. Yeah, right now I don't see much motivation for them to travel to the Tower. It really does look  like things are just set up for them to go on their own separate quests from here. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Gertrude

[Arakasi]

Also @Myrddin they put out the trailer for this weeks episode and there is a scene with Mat sitting at a table staring at the dagger which is placed in front of him.

[karaddin]

I feel like raising Egwene to Amyrlin becomes a lot harder to believe if she's never even done the Accepted test though. I don't feel like she needs to spend much time there, but that test needs to happen. 

I think the best option might be another time skip between seasons and she's either taking or just taken the Accepted test at the point s3 starts.

[Gertrude]

8 hours ago, karaddin said:

I feel like raising Egwene to Amyrlin becomes a lot harder to believe if she's never even done the Accepted test though.

I feel the same. This is the hardest part of the puzzle for me to see how it fits. Unless the doorway is in Falme, but they don't immediately set out for the Waste. How many episodes do we think they need there anyway? The arrive and get a feel for what is happening. The test. The gathering of the clans. The reveal. That's at least half a season at a bare minimum. What would Rand be doing until then that gets him and Egwene in the same place again for the Waste? (please say Lan mentorship, please please)

So if the girls go back to the Tower, how do she and Rand hook up again for travel? Also, why does Nyneave not return the rings to the flame, since I suspect they were handed to her as a set up for later. I do not envy the writers fitting this all together and I am looking forward to see how they solve it.

Is it possible that the Wise Ones haven't forgotten how to Travel? That honestly might be the easiest explanation, but might introduce issues I'm not seeing? Like why aren't there Wise Ones out searching for the car'a'carn? Why don't they just have Wise Ones Traveling to watering holes every day. Then again, that might be dishonoring the point of the Three Fold Land, so who knows. Traveling is a thing once Egwene returns anyway. 

That still doesn't explain the rings Nyneave has and of course, for Egwene to be summoned, she has to have some contact with an Aes Sedai with a dreaming ter'angreal, so that needs to be addressed (maybe, that's probably easier to figure out)

Edited October 3, 2023 by Gertrude