The Fandom and Always Looking From a Male Perspective

[Daeron the Daring]

21 hours ago, SeanF said:

It depends what the child is guilty of.

What? It literally doesn't. Or rather: It shouldn't.

Just because you do evil stuff as a 12 yo, it doesnt make you older, nor should it make you be considered older. 

You're basically saying that Joffrey, or anybody else, loses their right to being (considered) a child for doing (bad) stuff most kids don't.

21 hours ago, SeanF said:

To a large extent, Joffrey is treated as an adult, within the book universe

Which makes 0 differene. I tought you were trying to prove me that everybody should be held accountable for what they do. I very much believe that adults should be held accountable for obeying the orders given to them, and also for obeying a child, when they should not have. (That doesn't make Joffrey not guilty of ordering the stuff he did.)

16 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

You don't just excuse all things, regardless of what they are, for age though. It never works like that.

I don't remember saying that. I remember saying that Joffrey should always be considered an 11-13 year old boy when measured. Because that's his basic right as much as Sansa's or anyone else's.

If you want my perspective on how much he should be held accountable then I can confidently rely on the legal systems of some developed countries, where his childhood background and age would certainly be major factors.

But I'm not saying that his murder was unjust, not a necessity, or a bad thing, in the given setting.

And if you guys feel like I'm not aware of what Joffrey did, and what Sansa did in comparison, maybe you should stop arguing with me, since I must be entirely out of touch then. If not, then stop throwing it at me like they're arguments.

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I don't remember saying that. I remember saying that Joffrey should always be considered an 11-13 year old boy when measured. Because that's his basic right as much as Sansa's or anyone else's.

On 9/13/2023 at 10:44 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

No. Double standards is lifting someone from the burden of their acts at a certain age, meanwhile not doing the same with someone the same age. You don't let go of the 'crimes' of X just because X's are much better than Y's. Which they are, obviously, and Sansa's not even a comitter of crimes, in my opinion.

What I'm saying is that if one is entitled to the excuse of being naive due to age, so does the other. And that's not just Joffrey and Sansa, but every 12 year old.

Here it looks like you are implying that all acts should be excused from Joffrey as well as Sansa due to age or it's 'double standards'. What I was trying to say is that it's not an on or off thing. You can excuse some acts for age and not others. As I said, I give Joffrey a pass for getting drunk and boastful.

In my opinion, at least where I live, Joffrey's age and background would probably be taken into account more when sentencing, rather than in deciding how accountable he was, because he is old enough to be considered criminally responsible (he is 13, you have to be 10 in England and Wales and 12 in Scotland). And there is no way he can really argue that he did not know what he was doing was wrong. He is too old for defence of infancy and him being a psychopath would not, I believe, excuse him in Scotland or England. Ten year olds (at least one of whom was likely a psychopath) have been found guilty of murder in England so...

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

What? It literally doesn't. Or rather: It shouldn't.

Just because you do evil stuff as a 12 yo, it doesnt make you older, nor should it make you be considered older. 

You're basically saying that Joffrey, or anybody else, loses their right to being (considered) a child for doing (bad) stuff most kids don't.

 

As I said, it's a mitigating factor.  But, Joffrey could still be found guilty, under a modern legal system.

If Sansa enjoyed tormenting people for kicks, then indeed, she should be judged by the same standard as Joffrey.

[Nevets]

13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

As I said, it's a mitigating factor.  But, Joffrey could still be found guilty, under a modern legal system.

If Sansa enjoyed tormenting people for kicks, then indeed, she should be judged by the same standard as Joffrey.

I know, for example, that there are plenty of posters, even those sympathetic to her, that criticize Arya's actions, especially her murders in Braavos, Dareon's in particular.  I certainly do so.  I give her some leniency for her age, but she's still responsible for her own wrongdoing.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Nevets

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

I know, for example, that there are plenty of posters, even those sympathetic to her, that criticize Arya's actions, especially her murders in Braavos, Dareon's in particular.  I certainly do so.  I give her some leniency for her age, but she's still responsible for her own wrongdoing.

On the other hand, the punishment for deserting the Night’s Watch is death, so what she did was correct from a purely legal point of view.

[Craving Peaches]

15 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

On the other hand, the punishment for deserting the Night’s Watch is death, so what she did was correct from a purely legal point of view.

In Westeros yes, but not in Braavos.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

On the other hand, the punishment for deserting the Night’s Watch is death, so what she did was correct from a purely legal point of view.

Technically, it's not.  In addition to the act occurring in Braavos, she doesn't have the legal authority to pass sentence on a deserter.  She's not a recognized Lord of Winterfell or anywhere else.  So what she did was essentially vigilante justice.

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Technically, it's not.  In addition to the act occurring in Braavos, she doesn't have the legal authority to pass sentence on a deserter.  She's not a recognized Lord of Winterfell or anywhere else.  So what she did was essentially vigilante justice.

Agree. Braavos is outside House Stark's jurisdiction, and even if it wasn't, no one conferred upon Arya the right to carry out executions.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Technically, it's not.  In addition to the act occurring in Braavos, she doesn't have the legal authority to pass sentence on a deserter.  She's not a recognized Lord of Winterfell or anywhere else.  So what she did was essentially vigilante justice.

I don’t know, I think most of it is debatable.

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I don’t know, I think most of it is debatable.

We are given no reason to believe Westerosi law on desertion being punishable by death also applies in Braavos though. There is no treaty with Braavos or anything that would give it effect. Even if it did, Arya has not been vested with the authority to carry out an execution. She is not of age, she is not in charge of House Stark, she was not given the power by whomever was in charge to do this.

[Lord Varys]

On 9/12/2023 at 3:29 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

1. Female characters and their romantic interests - This is most prominent when discussing Daenerys. Daario is...well a flamboyant and interesting dude, and I think due to our own culture preferences...hard to understand sometimes as a love interest. However, I think if you can pretend you liked some of the unusual clothes/hair/beard styles, he is not wholly uncharming. A lot of women do in real life like men like Daario, just take out the beard/hair styles, lol. Is he a fit consort for a queen by cultural standards of the time? No, he isn't.

I think a lot of people have problems with Daario because by modern standards his flamboyant style and manners make him kind of gay coded ... and people have issues with Dany being attracted to such people. But there is nothing overly wrong with Daario as a consort for Daenerys, actually. She is more of a warrior queen and conqueress than a proper queen - a rogue queen, so to speak - so why shouldn't she have a rogue for a husband?

The way their romance is depicted is mostly great - it is nice to see both Dany's sexual desire/hunger for Daario as well as her fears that those desires will overwhelm or override her good sense.

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I think a lot of people have problems with Daario because by modern standards his flamboyant style and manners make him kind of gay coded ... and people have issues with Dany being attracted to such people.

For me, the bigger problem is that Daario’s appearance makes it hard to take him seriously as the cool bad boy he is supposed to be seen as.
I get that it’s a fantasy setting and many characters look fantasy-ish, but in the case of Daario it just doesn’t work. The cognitive dissonance is too big.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Fist of the Dragon]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think a lot of people have problems with Daario because by modern standards his flamboyant style and manners make him kind of gay coded ... and people have issues with Dany being attracted to such people. But there is nothing overly wrong with Daario as a consort for Daenerys, actually. She is more of a warrior queen and conqueress than a proper queen - a rogue queen, so to speak - so why shouldn't she have a rogue for a husband?

The way their romance is depicted is mostly great - it is nice to see both Dany's sexual desire/hunger for Daario as well as her fears that those desires will overwhelm or override her good sense.

I don't think so. Even by today's standards, instead of being gay, the majority consider Dario's clothing and behavior to be a kind of hollow drum. Ever since I got acquainted with the song of Ice and Fire (I visited the site many times even 3 years before I joined this fandom and read the comments of many friends), I have explored many sites and fandoms related to this series. However, in most of these fandoms, the romantic relationship between the dragon queen and her flamboyant commander was considered attractive and in most cases was of little importance. And all this has nothing to do with Dario's cover or flirtations, which can be considered as homosexuality. In his relationship with Dany, he had nothing special to offer. None of the contradictions or elements that made Jon/Ygritte or Jaime/Cersei one of the most popular romances in the entire series were present in Dany/Dario. Not only was Daenerys and her thoughts instilling half of the apparent charm of this relationship to the audience, but even Dario himself actually has nothing special to offer. Whatever Drogo and his character (courage, loyalty, love, or even a little intelligence and tact) showed to the audience, he proved them in a way, but Dario either doesn't have these or he didn't prove them (at least for the reader). ). So that it even becomes suspicious for Daenerys herself at times.
Daenerys is definitely one of my favorite characters in the entire series and even though I enjoyed her POVs in Dance with Dragons, when it came to Darius and his charms, she was pure torment.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

so why shouldn't she have a rogue for a husband?

lol, I'd rathe rwait another four years for The Winds of Winter than see more Dany/Dario in Dany's chapterand( while Dario is her husband!)

[SeanF]

17 minutes ago, Fist of the Dragon said:

I don't think so. Even by today's standards, instead of being gay, the majority consider Dario's clothing and behavior to be a kind of hollow drum. Ever since I got acquainted with the song of Ice and Fire (I visited the site many times even 3 years before I joined this fandom and read the comments of many friends), I have explored many sites and fandoms related to this series. However, in most of these fandoms, the romantic relationship between the dragon queen and her flamboyant commander was considered attractive and in most cases was of little importance. And all this has nothing to do with Dario's cover or flirtations, which can be considered as homosexuality. In his relationship with Dany, he had nothing special to offer. None of the contradictions or elements that made Jon/Ygritte or Jaime/Cersei one of the most popular romances in the entire series were present in Dany/Dario. Not only was Daenerys and her thoughts instilling half of the apparent charm of this relationship to the audience, but even Dario himself actually has nothing special to offer. Whatever Drogo and his character (courage, loyalty, love, or even a little intelligence and tact) showed to the audience, he proved them in a way, but Dario either doesn't have these or he didn't prove them (at least for the reader). ). So that it even becomes suspicious for Daenerys herself at times.
Daenerys is definitely one of my favorite characters in the entire series and even though I enjoyed her POVs in Dance with Dragons, when it came to Darius and his charms, she was pure torment.

lol, I'd rathe rwait another four years for The Winds of Winter than see more Dany/Dario in Dany's chapterand( while Dario is her husband!)

I don't particularly like Daario, but he's preferable to Illyrio, Viserys, Drogo, Jorah, Kraznys, Hizdahr, or Tyrion.

[Craving Peaches]

I don't have an issue with Daenerys and Daario. Also, Daenerys is only ~15. Daario is someone I would expect a fifteen year old girl in that situation to fancy.

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't have an issue with Daenerys and Daario. Also, Daenerys is only ~15. Daario is someone I would expect a fifteen year old girl in that situation to fancy.

I think Dany's just turned 17 by the end of ADWD.  Her story both predates, and postdates everybody elses.

Daario is much less disturbing than the large number of men pawing over, and fantasising about, her hot 12 year old body.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

For me, the bigger problem is that Daario’s appearance makes it hard to take him seriously as the cool bad boy he is supposed to be seen as.
I get that it’s a fantasy setting and many characters look fantasy-ish, but in the case of Daario it just doesn’t work. The cognitive dissonance is too big.

Daario isn't that much of a 'bad boy'. He is a sellsword, that's it. Sure enough, he betrayed his fellow officers but only to win the favor and heart of a gorgeous queen. He makes some drastic suggestions later ... but nothing Dany wouldn't have thought about herself. And he never does any bad or ugly things nor does he try to go against Dany's wishes after she has made them clear. In that sense he is actually the very definition of a good boy unlike, say, the treasonous snake Brown Ben Plumm.

He is basically a slightly older male pretty face with fighting talents and charisma, that's it. And Daenerys literally lusts after this man. That's it. That is the core of their relationship.

He himself, on the other hand, seems to be very deeply in love with her as his depression shows after Dany dumped him.

1 hour ago, Fist of the Dragon said:

Not only was Daenerys and her thoughts instilling half of the apparent charm of this relationship to the audience, but even Dario himself actually has nothing special to offer.

Not sure why he should have to offer anything 'special'? On Dany's part this is mostly a physical relationship, so what she needs is Daario's looks and his physical body, him fucking her, basically, as she makes herself clear. It is not about anything larger or deeper than that. And it doesn't have to be.

In fact, Jon seems to also be more or less just a pretty exotic piece of meat for Ygritte. In that sense he is basically Ygritte's Daario. Their relationship is equally physical.

1 hour ago, Fist of the Dragon said:

Whatever Drogo and his character (courage, loyalty, love, or even a little intelligence and tact) showed to the audience, he proved them in a way, but Dario either doesn't have these or he didn't prove them (at least for the reader).

Drogo had little to offer to Dany, actually. He never even took her seriously. He basically enjoyed her becoming a more active bought sex bunny, but that was it. He indulged her because she was supposed to give birth to the prophesied super Dothraki khal, not because he valued her opinions in their own right.

[Craving Peaches]

41 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think Dany's just turned 17 by the end of ADWD.

Really? I thought she was fifteen, since she just turns 13 when she marries Drogo, and I thought only two years passed, not four.

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Really? I thought she was fifteen, since she just turns 13 when she marries Drogo, and I thought only two years passed, not four.

I thought she was born in 283, but on checking, I see it was 284.  So, she's either 15 or 16.

[Nevets]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Really? I thought she was fifteen, since she just turns 13 when she marries Drogo, and I thought only two years passed, not four.

She was almost 14 when she married Drogo.  She learned she was pregnant on her 14th birthday.  A bit over 2 1/2 years has passed in the story.  She's now 16, was 15 when she met Daario, I think.  Jon recently turned 17, I believe, and he's 8 or 9 months older.