The Fandom and Always Looking From a Male Perspective

[Lord Varys]

13 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yep, she thinks Tommen is meek and disappointing compared to Joffrey.

Cersei is right there. Nobody ever groomed Tommen to rule, so he is a meek follower at heart, most likely unable to rule on his own in an impressive manner.

The reason why Cersei may have encouraged Joff's defiant and aggressive tendencies is that she - correctly - thought such character traits would help him once he was king. This is a cruel world, and people who are the top dogs need fangs. If they are weak they will die.

Of course, Joff has more than just defiant and aggressive tendencies ... but Cersei seems to have been honestly unaware of those.

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The notion that Cersei is (mainly) responsible for how Joff turned out is pretty much ludicrous. She would have had some influence, but not as much as people here claim she had.

It is not ludicrous if she sees her favorite son as her golden baby who could do nothing wrong. Which, you know, you could see by accessing A Search of Ice and Fire, and search for mentions of Joffrey from Cersei's POV.

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

It is not ludicrous if she sees her favorite son as her golden baby who could do nothing wrong. Which, you know, you could see by accessing A Search of Ice and Fire, and search for mentions of Joffrey from Cersei's POV.

Joff being Cersei's favorite doesn't mean her treatment of him turned him into a (sexual) sadist in the making.

That is a silly take on things as sexual fantasies develop on their own - you don't become a sadist because mommy didn't slap you enough. (Although you might become one if mommy slapped you a lot.)

What makes sadists and psychopaths in the real world are genetic predispositions and severe mental or physical trauma at a young age (or we do have differentiate there - the latter are made that way, sadist fantasies you mostly just have and develop). Joff didn't seem to have suffer much of the latter from his mother. The one who beat him up severely at a young age was his father Robert, not Cersei.

If Joff inherited bad traits it isn't the fault of his parents but just nature. And that is certainly possible. The Lannisters we know are pretty fucked up. Tyrion is clearly a sexual deviant to a point, Cersei and Jaime, too. And Tywin most of all. Tytos also may have had strange tastes, we don't know enough about him.

The idea that a child who cut open living cats at the age Joffrey did it was ever 'normal' is ludicrous. There would have been a chance that he would live his fantasies and preferences in a non-lethal manner ... but only if he was born in another world and, more importantly, not as a prince or nobleman with rich as hell parents. 

The best Joff could become was a controlled pervert monster like Roose Bolton. Not a real improvement if you think about for a moment.

On the other hand ... we don't know how his fantasies went exactly. He apparently cut open the cat out of curiosity, not because he wanted to cause it pain. The only woman he later torments is Sansa who he hates as the brat of a traitor. Would he ever treat Margaery like that? We don't know.

[Craving Peaches]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But Joff is nothing like Cersei.

He is, if you can't see that despite numerous quotes to the contrary then I don't really know what else can be done. People point out Joffrey and Cersei have similar manners, they both default to harming or executing people, both can pretend to be charming but are horrible people underneath, both have done cruel and disturbing things at a young age, both crave power, both want to be surrounded by yes-men rather than actual advisors, etc.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That seems to be fantasy on your part. Renly wanted to control the royal children to run the government. Cersei is his and Ned's rival for the regency. He doesn't care about Cersei's influence on Joff, he wants to be who runs things.

You seem to have missed my point. If Joffrey was just innately a psycho, and it had nothing to do with Cersei, then I doubt Renly would bother with a plan which involved ruling through Joffrey, because Joffrey would be uncontrollable. The fact Renly thinks they have a shot at that if Cersei is out of the picture points to Cersei having a significant (bad) influence on Joffrey.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And those people are 'experts' on parenting?

Compared to Cersei, yes, since Kevan's children have turned out better than Joffrey.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei also doesn't remember the (apparent) murder of Melara fondly - like a real sadist would.

Really? Because she goes on about how Melara was 'not so silent in the well' and how she was a 'greedy little schemer with ideas above her station', who 'got what she deserved'. Also, if Cersei is not a sadist, then why does she default to mutilation etc. as a punishment? Why does she have the Blue Bard tortured? Why does she hurt Baby Tyrion at the age of seven years old (which she enjoyed by the way)? Why does she kill multiple people who are supposed to be her friends?

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, that happens in AFfC after she went through a lot. You guys don't get the structure of the story, do you? The Cersei of AFfC isn't the woman we meet in AGoT.

LOL, Cersei drinks before that. Yes she starts to drink more in AFfC, but she was never not drinking heavily.

ACoK, Sansa VI

Quote

Cersei beckoned to her page for another cup of wine, a golden vintage from the Arbor, fruity and rich. The queen was drinking heavily, but the wine only seemed to make her more beautiful; her cheeks were flushed, and her eyes had a bright, feverish heat to them as she looked down over the hall. Eyes of wildfire, Sansa thought.

We understand the story fine, unlike yourself apparently, since you ignore all textual evidence which contradicts your argument about Cersei.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, Tommen and Myrcella would be surrounded by similar people and they turned out to be alright ... so the problem is more Joff's nature not his upbringing in any case. If Cersei was this super bad example/parent who wields a lot of influence over her children then Tommen and Myrcella should be rotten, too.

Aside from the fact (again) that everyone thinks Cersei ruined Joffrey, Cersei spends more time with Joffrey than Tommen and Myrcella (at least until Joffrey's death), also Tommen was probably bullied by Joffrey.

[SaffronLady]

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Joff being Cersei's favorite doesn't mean her treatment of him turned him into a (sexual) sadist in the making.

Great. After finding your previous position undefendable, you move the goalposts. How about we move back to the "Cersei turned Joffrey into a huge pampered entitled problem child" square?

[Daeron the Daring]

On 9/18/2023 at 12:17 PM, Craving Peaches said:

I think this all comes down to the nature vs nurture debate. There are things such as the cat incident which suggest to me that Joffrey did have something intrinsically 'wrong with him', but it is also clear that Cersei was an awful parent who imparted many bad 'lessons' onto Joffrey. Cersei, at the very least, exacerbated what was already there in a negative manner, by encouraging and rewarding Joffrey's bad behaviour. I think with a better parent Joffrey would not be so quick to act on whatever antisocial 'urges' he has, at least.

As someone who spends quite some time with kids: Don't underestimate the cruelty and hatred they can harbor, and how well they can hide it in front of certain people (their parents, most frequently).

As somone who knows insanely misnurtured people: Don't underestimate the toll nurture has on you.

As a former kid myself: Don't rely on a kid's common sense. Joffrey made the asumption that he should have Bran killed because of what Robert said. Kids make assumptions in the same fashion, not because they are bad (not claiming Joffrey isn't), but because they lack the ability to realise the weight of certain actions and words coming from adults or done by themselves.

The 'something wrong' Joffrey had in him wasn't anything more than an insane level of misnurture/lack of nurture. If you let loose the most privileged kid of the Seven Kingdoms, it might turn out this way. Not necesarilly, and I'm not the right person to seek for an answer on why (or if) certain kids have a bigger tendency for being troubled any or many ways, but that doesn't make a child a rotten apple, because children are children, and the mental disorders some and most people put on Joffrey as a tag are unrealistic in nature, because they are modern concepts that cannot be applied on children in the modern world, as far as I'm aware.

And Joffrey wasn't a rotten apple. That's my opinion, I guess.

(This is a completely separate topic, somewhat reflecting at the original post, but) In a much wider range, I think, Joffrey is part of an issue that's represented on many levels in George's work: That the things we love are often evil in nature as well, which makes our love or hatred for anything hipocrytical. And I'm guilty of that too.

Am I really allowed to hate Joffrey while reading a book set up in a never ending feudal world, with the best and worst exploiting millions, often at the same level?

In that sense, the only character I feel I have the right to hate is Euron. What he aims at is uncomparable to the level of exploit feudalism throws at people. People like Ramsay just add a few hundred/thousand to a list of millions. 

[Lord Varys]

14 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

As someone who spends quite some time with kids: Don't underestimate the cruelty and hatred they can harbor, and how well they can hide it in front of certain people (their parents, most frequently).

As somone who knows insanely misnurtured people: Don't underestimate the toll nurture has on you.

As a former kid myself: Don't rely on a kid's common sense. Joffrey made the asumption that he should have Bran killed because of what Robert said. Kids make assumptions in the same fashion, not because they are bad (not claiming Joffrey isn't), but because they lack the ability to realise the weight of certain actions and words coming from adults or done by themselves.

I'm with you there. Joffrey is, for the most part, a child whose actions boil down to sycophants and lackeys allowing him to do what he wants. His father ignores him, and his mother dotes on him (and might even be unaware of his worst actions). Once he is king his mother allows him free reign even more to not making him a guy who is under the thumb of his mother. Cersei doesn't act much different from Cat there.

The one thing that indicates that he might have a deep-seated, possibly genetic issue with things is the cat incident. Him cutting it open for curiosity doesn't imply sadism so much (he would have seen a lot of butchery and animal cruelty going on in the castle) as a lack of empathy. That is concerning at that age.

But his actions relating to Bran, Mycah, Arya, Sansa, etc. are all understandable in the context of the world he lives in, the values he espouses and is expected to espouse.

There is a chance that him ruling in his own right would have freed him of the desire to impress some lackeys. He would have shouldered the burden of the kingdom being unable to turn to anyone who could fix problems for him.

[SeanF]

I don’t think Joffrey’s behaviour is normative, even in this world.

The typical noble is selfish and exploitative and does not consider the lives of the smallfolk in any way important.

But, he’s not typically a sadist, which Joffrey most certainly is.  And Joffrey directs his sadism at members of his own class, as well as the smallfolk.  Joffrey (like Ramsay) would fit in better among the masters of Slavers Bay, who institutionalise that type of cruelty.  He’d be be full of glee as children and dwarves were fed to wild beasts.

Joffrey is worse than the typical spoiled Prince.

[Craving Peaches]

I always got the impression that the cat incident was meant to tell us that there was something wrong with Joffrey beyond his bad upbringing. It is really abnormal for people to treat animals and baby animals in that way...

[SeanF]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

I always got the impression that the cat incident was meant to tell us that there was something wrong with Joffrey beyond his bad upbringing. It is really abnormal for people to treat animals and baby animals in that way...

Not to mention killing Tommen’s pet fawn.

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Not to mention killing Tommen’s pet fawn.

And then skinning it for clothes...

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I don’t think Joffrey’s behaviour is normative, even in this world.

Yeah, I think that goes without saying.

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I always got the impression that the cat incident was meant to tell us that there was something wrong with Joffrey beyond his bad upbringing. It is really abnormal for people to treat animals and baby animals in that way...

Natural-born psychopaths like that British 10-year-old who murdered a 4-year-old? I don't recall the name, sadly.

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Natural-born psychopaths like that British 10-year-old who murdered a 4-year-old? I don't recall the name, sadly.

There were two involved. Venables and Thompson.

[Willam Stark]

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I always got the impression that the cat incident was meant to tell us that there was something wrong with Joffrey beyond his bad upbringing. It is really abnormal for people to treat animals and baby animals in that way...

This is a psychopath trait.

Joffrey would have become even worse than Aerys II had he reached adulthood. Thank God Olenna got rid of him.

[Daeron the Daring]

5 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Natural-born psychopaths

No such thing exists.

[Craving Peaches]

59 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

No such thing exists.

It kind of does though. You can be born with aberrations in the connection(s) between the amygdala and the frontal lobe(s), which can lead to displays of 'psychopathic' behaviour.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 9/12/2023 at 1:29 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Okay, I am back, this time because of just a general vibe from the fandom. I want to say first, there are a lot in the fandom who DON'T do this (I assume particularly female or nonbinary fans, lol), however, there is still a lot of....let's be charitable and say ignorance (rather than sexist delusions) of how a female character may view the world rather than viewing everything through a male lens. I want to add yet another caveat and mention...I actually think GRRM does a much better job at writing female characters than many of these fans do while analyzing the text. I am not saying GRRM never is sexist (the sexualization of Daenerys in her own POV for example is something that always bothered me. Why is Daenerys so very aware of her own breasts all the time?), however I actually think he is a lot better than a lot of male authors and he writes interesting and well developed female characters. So, let's move to examples : 

1. Female characters and their romantic interests - This is most prominent when discussing Daenerys. Daario is...well a flamboyant and interesting dude, and I think due to our own culture preferences...hard to understand sometimes as a love interest. However, I think if you can pretend you liked some of the unusual clothes/hair/beard styles, he is not wholly uncharming. A lot of women do in real life like men like Daario, just take out the beard/hair styles, lol. Is he a fit consort for a queen by cultural standards of the time? No, he isn't. However....do you know who else has unfit lovers? A lot of the male characters. Tyrion has a prostitute for a lover, Theon has...also a prostitute for a lover, and Jon has a wildling for a lover. There is plenty of male characters making similar decisions in their love life, but for some reason the fandom focuses entirely on Daenerys. There is also a tendency to make Daario into more than he is. Daenerys having a love interest....makes sense. Most young people have crushes. The male characters in these books have crushes. Moving outside of just Daenerys, Arianne is often talked about negatively with regard to her love interests, and Sansa is too. However, let's focus on Sansa for point 2. 

2. Female characters and looking at their unfit partners from a male perspective. Sansa is the obvious go to here. So many in the fandom take things from Tyrion's point of view, rather than Sansa's. Okay, lets just imagine an example that would be....semi-similar the opposite way. Tywin forces Tyrion to marry Lolys Stokeworth rather than Sansa. I think perhaps in this scenario suddenly many male fans who try to say how Sansa should be okay with Tyrion will suddenly see Sansa's point of view. Listen, 1. Tyrion is too old for Sansa. 2. Tyrion is very ugly. Period. Men care about this the other direction, but try to pretend like they dont' have double standards when they clearly do. 3. Tyrion is the enemy. Notice that Sansa was pretty much okay with marrying Willas despite not even knowing what he looked like. She wnated to befree from the Lannisters. Willas is also crippled, and at the point in the book, Sansa is just ...okay with that. She is okay with someone less attractive...just not a Lannister. There are also other examples of this. Lack of understanding for Lysa is reasonable (I myself dislike Lysa as she is a liar and she, in my opinion, is responsible for Eddard's death by not just holding Tyrion normally and then trading him for Eddard), however....she was married to an old man and forced to abort a baby (which may have permantantly effected her ability to produce children). Like...that is f***ing horrible. I know, for men, this is hard to imagine (since we dont' carry babies)...but that is why it's called empathy. Trying to understand a character even without having the same experiences. Characters like Petyr or Stannis get all this support for their circumstances..meanwhile everyone has no such understanding for Lysa. Cersei as well gets this treatment...and that brings me to point number 3. 

3. Somehow not believing female characters evne from their own POV. Robert raped Cersei. GRRM has even I think confirmed this. (I just read a blog about it). Not believing Cersei even in her own POV is so freaking frustrating. Robert raped her, period. This isn't the only example of not believing characters in their own POVs, but this is by far the biggest example. 

4. Last one I promise - Not understanding how sexist societies are unfair/unfit, and that we as modern people...should not be judging this society by their own standards. I fully believe that GRRM wrote these books expecting people to look at them with modern eyes. We are meant to be horrified by certain things, we are meant to pick up on the sexism and be angry about it and recognize it's unfair. There are a lot of people who almost dismiss female characters entirely, or at least don't care about them. They refuse to engage with, try to empathize with, or relate to said female characters. I find this very frustrating. Look, of course we want to relate to characters that are like us...but I think its also possilb eto like and relate t characters unlike us. I am nothing like Eddard Stark, Catelyn Stark is more like my mom then she is like me, and Daenerys and I differ in many important ways, yet I can relate to, empathize with, and in fact, like, all these characters. Why not? And while I am relating to these characters, the sexist  double standards SHOULD make you feel trapped/unfair/angry. I jsut read the Sansa chapter where she is married to Tyrion and it so unbelievably frustrating. Trying to imagine if I had 0 say of who I would marry, could just be married off because they wanted to, and just....had 0 freedom...is so crazily uncomfortable. How Sansa is treated in these books is HORRIBLE. And yet Sansa seems to get more hate in the fandom then she gets love/understanding. Arya also has her share of unfair/uncomfortable situations she is forced through. Catelyn is often ignored by others. Even Cersei, a character I love to hate, does actually hve legitimate grievances against her society/unfair treatment she receives. I think we should also not forget that Cersei is herself a misogynist (how she treats other women is telling), however she is also a victim of that patriarchal system. If you read this book and come away thinking "people should just get in line with their society's codes of gendered actions", I think you are doing a bad job of reading the book to be blunt. I honestly believe books that don't hide the sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. can often be anti-sexism/racism/homophobia etc in a way that books that make some perfect world cannot. I almost think those other books/media are whitewashing the reality/history, rather than actually confronting it. To me GRRM is kind of lacking in the racism department (he does too much repeating of racism stereotypes and has very few POC characters), however I think he does confront both sexism and homophobia and perhaps gender non-conformity ...and there is nuance to how he deals with all three. 

Anyways, that's it. Sorry, it's long again. 

Nitpick, but I don't think Theon's ever been with a prostitute in the books. You're probably thinking of Ros in the show.

I agree that people are often unfair to Sansa, Arya and Catelyn though.

George said that it was rape in a blog? Do you have a link? That would be a very interesting read.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Lee-Sensei]

On 9/18/2023 at 10:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

They don't. They reference that Cersei is a bad influence on Joffrey ... which is true. But Joff is nothing like Cersei.

I'd say Robert ignoring Joffrey had a bigger impact on him. Joff has no interest in emulating or impressing Cersei - he manipulates and exploits her because he knows he is her favorite. 

Joffrey is actually a lot like Cersei. Robert isn't Joffrey's father (that would be Jaime who knew he was the actual father and was living there) and wanted to discipline him harder, but Cersei said that she'd murder him in his sleep if he did. No. Robert wasn't a great father to his wife's son, but Cersei is responsible for how Joffrey turned out and is credited with it by most people (Robert, Tywin, Kevan, Tyrion, Jaime etc.).

[SaffronLady]

6 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

No such thing exists.

I'm kind of curious, if this is your stance, how do you explain Venables and Thompson?