The Fandom and Always Looking From a Male Perspective

[Lee-Sensei]

26 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Oh I don’t know.  I definitely think that Euron is more evil than Baelish.  Probably the most pure evil character in the books, more so than even Ramsay.

I meant to say Euron. I don't know why I typed Victarion. I must have just been thinking about him. Euron is by far the most evil of the Greyjoys. I really like Quellon Greyjoy and he was a smart guy, but all of his kids refused to follow his wise path.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Daeron the Daring]

On 9/24/2023 at 4:35 PM, Craving Peaches said:

When you say there is no such thing as a natural born 'psychopath', it implies that one could not be a psychopath purely due to genetics and resulting biology, which I disagree with.

What I said has not referred to genetical factors being nonexistent. 

We all assume a tone to what we read, based on several factors. You made a wrong assumption, maybe because of the opinions I expressed previously, maybe not, but you did.

On the other hand, noone can be a psychopath purely because of genetics. It's really a 50/50. And Joffrey's not considered one by the one person that created him. Goodnight.

On 9/25/2023 at 10:43 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

@Lee-Sensei @Lord Varys @Craving Peaches @SaffronLady@Daeron the Daring

I wanted to get everyone involved in the psychopath conversation, if I missed anyone I am sorry.

Sorry I averted the discussion. It's really on me.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 9/25/2023 at 1:20 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yeah, meanwhile Victarion is too dumb to be evil.

Victarion's not the brightest guy in the world, but I wouldn't say that. He does have moments of wisdom.

Quote

"Every man should lose a battle in his youth, so he does not lose a war when he is old." - Victarion

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[KingAerys_II]

Cersei is a female psychopath, she orders extremely cruel acts as the death of Robert's bastards and torture of women and bards by Maester Qyburn, male psychopathy and female psychopathy are different, Cersei shows every trait

[Craving Peaches]

18 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

What I said has not referred to genetical factors being nonexistent. 

And I never claimed you did. I was saying that what you said gave the impression that someone could never be a psychopath due to genetics alone.

18 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

It's really a 50/50.

Source? I asked someone working in that area and they said it was impossible for someone to be a psychopath due to just genetics, but where are you getting a 50/50 from? I want to read more on the topic.

18 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And Joffrey's not considered one by the one person that created him.

Where did GRRM say this?

[kissdbyfire]

59 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Where did GRRM say this?

There’s this interview here, where he talks about Joffrey though I can’t remember whether Martin talks specifically about psychopathy. There’s another interview where he talks about Joffrey and compares him to Jon, but I can’t find the link atm.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 10/2/2023 at 4:04 PM, KingAerys_II said:

Cersei is a female psychopath, she orders extremely cruel acts as the death of Robert's bastards and torture of women and bards by Maester Qyburn, male psychopathy and female psychopathy are different, Cersei shows every trait

Are female psychopaths somehow different than male ones...and so needing you to specify their gender, lol. 

[Craving Peaches]

22 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Are female psychopaths somehow different than male ones...and so needing you to specify their gender, lol. 

There supposedly was some differences according to this study I read about online... Not sure if it is reliable though.

Quote

One of the noted differences between males and females is that while male psychopaths more frequently show antisocial and physical aggression, females tend to display a more relational and verbal form of aggression, as well as more manipulativeness and self-destructive behavior 

Source: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2022.831410/full#:~:text=One of the noted differences,behavior (11%2C 14).

[KingAerys_II]

Cersei is bad, she is evil, she is clearly not a grey character, ASOIAF is a violent fantasy world, where torture is common to gain informations, but Qyburn experiments are the most disgusting things, maybe worse than Theon captivity, that was quite shocking

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

27 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Cersei is bad, she is evil, she is clearly not a grey character, ASOIAF is a violent fantasy world, where torture is common to gain informations, but Qyburn experiments are the most disgusting things, maybe worse than Theon captivity, that was quite shocking

I mean, I think Cersei is...not a sociopath, but I agree with you otherwise. I think she has a personality disorder...which one, well I'm not a psychiatrist, so I don't know. But based on my partner's love of researching these kind of things, I've heard her many explanations of different personality disorders. Again, I am no expert, but Cersei falls under the some of the basic guidelines for...several personality disorders (of which off the top my head, I'd say narcissistic or paranoid personality disorders both seem likely). However, sociopathy suggests she doesn't care about other humans or feel any empathy for them, and I would suggest she does...even if she is quite bad at it. Also, Tywin fucked her up and we see it in live action, lol. anyways, off the top of my head...I think if Cersei truly was a sociopath she wouldn't care so much what Tywin thinks of her. She clearly does. It effects a lot of her personality and decisions she makes. 

[sifth]

3 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I mean, I think Cersei is...not a sociopath, but I agree with you otherwise. I think she has a personality disorder...which one, well I'm not a psychiatrist, so I don't know. But based on my partner's love of researching these kind of things, I've heard her many explanations of different personality disorders. Again, I am no expert, but Cersei falls under the some of the basic guidelines for...several personality disorders (of which off the top my head, I'd say narcissistic or paranoid personality disorders both seem likely). However, sociopathy suggests she doesn't care about other humans or feel any empathy for them, and I would suggest she does...even if she is quite bad at it. Also, Tywin fucked her up and we see it in live action, lol. anyways, off the top of my head...I think if Cersei truly was a sociopath she wouldn't care so much what Tywin thinks of her. She clearly does. It effects a lot of her personality and decisions she makes. 

She sent one of her closest friends to be tortured to death in a dungeon and pushed another close friend down a well. Yea, she really cares about other people alright. The woman is as rotten as they come.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

45 minutes ago, sifth said:

She sent one of her closest friends to be tortured to death in a dungeon and pushed another close friend down a well. Yea, she really cares about other people alright. The woman is as rotten as they come.

I don't think that equals sociopathy. Murderers and horrible people don't have to be sociopaths. Anyways, neither of us are doctors. I simply argued for two different personality disorders I think Cersei could have instead of antisocial personality disorder (the disorder most often connected to sociopathy). Cersei seeks approval from others constantly (especially Tywin) and I believe that is an extremely common trait of a narcissistic personality disorder. But again...we are just guessing. Saying someone has one personality disorder instead a different personality disorder...does not make that person less evil. I'm not calling her un-evil. I think Cersei's actions in the books are.......while less horrible then Tywin, Ramsay, and Euron's...maybe Petyr's (Petyr betrays people he suppossedly cares about...does Cersei? If you want to count her "friends", I think it is clear she viewed them more as servants than friends, from her own POV, even if we can think that is horrible. Petyr consistently claims to love Catelyn)....but outside of those 4 and maybe some of the slavers (specific individuals are hard to focus on...but I seem to remember the initial dude who talked to Daenerys in Astapor was pretty horrible), I think Cersei is right up there with the most evil characters. 

Let's not use the word "sociopath" to mean evil/selfish. Non-sociopaths can be selfish. Non-sociopaths can be evil. Cersei was TRAINED to think that others (for example her "friends" were less than her and lives didn't matter that much from an early age. IN fact...if people cared for others and then still murdered them...wouldn't that actually be worse? At least the sociopath would have an excuse. Fun fact that I always want to mention in this : When psychiatrists/psychologists did tests on some of the worse war criminals from the Holocaust, many of them showed no signs of sociopathy/psychopathy. I can find and link the study if you are interested, although I'm sure you could find it on a google search. My point is : Those dudes were evil, and I don't care whether they were sociopaths or not. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Odej]

6 minutes ago, sifth said:

She sent one of her closest friends to be tortured to death in a dungeon and pushed another close friend down a well. Yea, she really cares about other people alright. The woman is as rotten as they come.

I believe he is talking about Cersei caring about her children. If her feelings for them are similiar to Catelyn Stark feelings about her own children that's another thing. I say no.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

24 minutes ago, Odej said:

I believe he is talking about Cersei caring about her children. If her feelings for them are similiar to Catelyn Stark feelings about her own children that's another thing. I say no.

I would say she does care about her children....and no it's not like Catelyn cares for her children. It's much more self-centered and less empathetic than Catelyn is...however I do thinks he cares for them. I also think she cares for Jaime...again in a fucked up and selfish way, but still cares for him. And finally she cares for Tywin...again, weird and fucked up, but she seeks his approval and wants to be like him. Although we dont' see her with her mother, it also appears she cared for her mother. Also, keep in mind that she didn't hate Robert UNTIL he called her Lyanna. I'm not saying that makes her some good person...but the point is I don't think it lines up with sociopathy. Honestly..this is ridiculous. We are knit picking here. Honestly, did anyone here even study Psychology in an undergraduate degree? I studied Sociology (as a minor)..but that is as close as I come. We are just guessing. Saying not a sociopath does not mean not evil though. I'd argue Ramsay or Euron are way more evil than Petyr Baelish, but I think Baelish is more likely a sociopath then either of them. Sociopath doesn't equal evil. Taht's not what the word means. 

[KingAerys_II]

It's hard not to consider Baelish a bad character, He ordered the mutilation of Marillion to confess that he actually killed Lysa, it's similar to what happened to Wat. 

Ramsey, Baelish, Cersei, Euron are very similar, it's very hard not to consider them as psychopaths, they fell no remorse

[KingAerys_II]

Baelish ordered the whipping of Jeyne Poole to make her learn how to please men, he is as bad as the others

[Craving Peaches]

4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I would say she does care about her children....

For what it's worth, GRRM thinks the reader can question whether Cersei really loves her children. He also said Cersei has an 'almost sociopathic view of the world':

Quote

You can argue, well, does she genuinely love her children, or does she just love them because they’re her children? There’s certainly a great level of narcissism in Cersei. She has an almost sociopathic view of the world and civilization.

‘Game of Thrones’ Author George R.R. Martin: The Rolling Stone Interview – Rolling Stone

Yes, we cannot say for sure that she is a sociopath, but I think there is enough evidence that you could make a strong case for it. Because she repeatedly treats people who are supposed to be her friends with intense cruelty, and enjoys it. And she does this at a young age. She essentially tortures baby Tyrion when she is just seven years old, around the same time she decides to initiate the incestuous relationship with Jaime despite knowing it is very wrong, at only ten she is threatening to have people killed, flogged etc. and she either pushes her friend down a well or leaves her to die there... Even leaving aside all the horrible things she did as an adult, she seems to have no empathy or remorse. She treats people like disposable objects rather than actual human beings.

4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Also, keep in mind that she didn't hate Robert UNTIL he called her Lyanna.

She also did not care for him to the degree that she slept with Jaime on their wedding day... Before Robert did anything.

[sifth]

7 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I don't think that equals sociopathy. Murderers and horrible people don't have to be sociopaths. Anyways, neither of us are doctors. I simply argued for two different personality disorders I think Cersei could have instead of antisocial personality disorder (the disorder most often connected to sociopathy). Cersei seeks approval from others constantly (especially Tywin) and I believe that is an extremely common trait of a narcissistic personality disorder. But again...we are just guessing. Saying someone has one personality disorder instead a different personality disorder...does not make that person less evil. I'm not calling her un-evil. I think Cersei's actions in the books are.......while less horrible then Tywin, Ramsay, and Euron's...maybe Petyr's (Petyr betrays people he suppossedly cares about...does Cersei? If you want to count her "friends", I think it is clear she viewed them more as servants than friends, from her own POV, even if we can think that is horrible. Petyr consistently claims to love Catelyn)....but outside of those 4 and maybe some of the slavers (specific individuals are hard to focus on...but I seem to remember the initial dude who talked to Daenerys in Astapor was pretty horrible), I think Cersei is right up there with the most evil characters. 

Let's not use the word "sociopath" to mean evil/selfish. Non-sociopaths can be selfish. Non-sociopaths can be evil. Cersei was TRAINED to think that others (for example her "friends" were less than her and lives didn't matter that much from an early age. IN fact...if people cared for others and then still murdered them...wouldn't that actually be worse? At least the sociopath would have an excuse. Fun fact that I always want to mention in this : When psychiatrists/psychologists did tests on some of the worse war criminals from the Holocaust, many of them showed no signs of sociopathy/psychopathy. I can find and link the study if you are interested, although I'm sure you could find it on a google search. My point is : Those dudes were evil, and I don't care whether they were sociopaths or not. 

I don't think she has a split personality. Whenever she shows up in the story, she's always "evil" Cersei. The only time she shows a hint of humanity, is when she feels slightly bad for having tortured Falyse to death and asks Qyburn if she's still alive, however this thought quickly fades away and Cersei feels she probably deserved to die for the "crime" of being stupid.

[sifth]

7 hours ago, Odej said:

I believe he is talking about Cersei caring about her children. If her feelings for them are similiar to Catelyn Stark feelings about her own children that's another thing. I say no.

I view Cersei as possibly the worst mother in the series, who only views her children as an extension of herself. In the books Cersei doesn't even seem aware of Joff's true nature and just feels it's perfectly normal, whenever he does something evil. At least the show, made her more self aware of Joff's true nature. Plus in the books this is a woman perfectly fine with killing babies, so long as they were Robert's bastards. Not a whole lot of humanity in someone like that.

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, sifth said:

I view Cersei as possibly the worst mother in the series, who only views her children as an extension of herself. In the books Cersei doesn't even seem aware of Joff's true nature and just feels it's perfectly normal, whenever he does something evil. At least the show, made her more self aware of Joff's true nature. Plus in the books this is a woman perfectly fine with killing babies, so long as they were Robert's bastards. Not a whole lot of humanity in someone like that.

Agree wholeheartedly and the same goes for her love for Jaime btw. I will never understand the "at least she loves her children" argument irt Cersei. Carol was slightly different, although still a horrible person.