Do you agree that Petyr Baelish/Littlefinger is Near Pure Evil?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Why do you keep using and making threads only about these wikis and Tv Tropes rather the actual books content ?

Edited September 24, 2023 by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9

[Craving Peaches]

All of these threads start to go into the 'poor Cersei who is not power hungry at all just wants what's best for her children' argument despite it conflicting with the text, so I am saying now the argument makes no sense and the logic is flawed.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

And the reason why I am quoting from these sources is because I agree with their system and I participate there, so I know how they operate and they don't allow their emotions to get in the way of analyzing characters.

I’m sorry but this seems to be the opposite of what you’re doing here irt Cersei. You keep defending the indefensible using non-arguments about all the “hardships and traumas” Cersei endured growing up, but that’s a fantasy of yours. She had an extremely privileged upbringing, she’s gorgeous, etc. Your Cersei fetish makes you see the character in a very passionate way that is completely emotional and absolutely lacking in critical analysis. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Kal-L said:

That's why a character like Brandon Ice-Eyes became a favourite Stark (along with another ruthless figure like Theon Stark). When he dealt with the slavers, he didn't just beheaded them and be done with them, no, he stripped them naked during a particularly cruel winter and then give them to their former slaves who decided of their fates.

The Starks of old didn't kid around.

Rightly so.

Yet, it’s odd how some of the fandom will condemn Dany for doing likewise.

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Rightly so.

Yet, it’s odd how some of the fandom will condemn Dany for doing likewise.

The "dracarys" scene is still one of my faves to this day, 100% fist-pumping moment. 

[boltons are sick]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’m sorry but this seems to be the opposite of what you’re doing here irt Cersei. You keep defending the indefensible using non-arguments about all the “hardships and traumas” Cersei endured growing up, but that’s a fantasy of yours. She had an extremely privileged upbringing, she’s gorgeous, etc. Your Cersei fetish makes you see the character in a very passionate way that is completely emotional and absolutely lacking in critical analysis. 

You seem to think that just because she was born in a rich family she had a wonderful life.

Azula from Avatar: The Last Airbender is also born in the Fire Nation royal family and she is the Princesses of the Fire Nation and she is also beautiful. Her father Ozai outwardly favors her compared to her brother Zuko whom he abuses more visibly. Azula also gets to command soldiers in battle and they obey her orders. Sounds like she has an easy life? Not so quite?

Her father Ozai doesn't actually love her in the genuine way in which a parent should love their child. In fact, on one occasion he threatens his wife that he would kill both Azula and Zuko if his wife doesn't do as he says which shows he is willing to sacrifice even Azula's life if it means achieving his goals (yep, he really does say he is going to kill his own children if his wife doesn't do as he asks in a comic). He also puts immense pressure on her to become perfect which is why Azula excels at training and she has become a firebending prodigy at the age of 14. She also leads soldiers into battle and attends military meeting as a young teen due to her father demanding this of her. Because of this, she literally has no social life and feels really awkward whenever she tries to speak to her peers as an equal and not as their commanding officer. When she tries to get a boyfriend and to get one of the boys at a party to like, she starts cracking some really dumb jokes, she acts socially awkward throughout their conversation and she tries to impress him with talks about world domination which scares him off. 

She is also very rude and commanding most of the time because her father taught her that friendships don't matter and she needs to dominate others because that's the only way in which she can interact with other human beings. Because of this, she is deeply unhappy due to having no real friends because she can't open up to people. Ozai has drilled into her head the ideas that she should dominate everyone else and that she shouldn't disappoint him in any way which causes her to act in anti-social ways from a young age.

She is also afraid that if she is not "perfect" in her father's eyes, he is going to start treating the same way in which he treats Zuko, the unfavorable child in their family, which causes her to join in mocking Zuko to assert that she is the dominant sibling since she doesn't want to lose that position in her father's eyes and get abused the same way Zuko does because her father measures the favoritism he gives her through her accomplishments and doesn't have any genuine love for her. At one point, she even shouts with fear at him that "he can't treat her like Zuko" which shows that she fears that.

On top of that, her mother who is kind-hearted, favors Zuko more than her which causes her to be jeaous of him and to seek her father's approval even more and act in the exact way he wants to win it. Then, at one point, her mother runs away and leaves them which makes Azula even more sad.

Then, as the story progresses, her "friends" betray her and join her enemies, her father leaves her behind as the next Fire Lord but he himself goes to claim the mantle of Emperor of the world which causes Azula to think he has abandoned her because he has no more use of her and she gets defeated by a redeemed Zuko which causes her to have a mental breakdown at the age of 14 because she had always been taught that her task in life if to be perfect to gain her father's favor and "affection" and she gets defeated by her brother whom she always believed was weaker than her which shatters her whole worldview and makes her feel miserable due to being unable to live up to her father's standarsds and she starts sobbing not because she is afraid of the consequences, but she has extreme insecurities feels her life has no meaning if she is not perfect and doesn't bring glory to her father because that's how her father has conditioned her to think and that he doesn't love her and that nobody would love her.

After reading this, do you really want to tell me that you think someone like Azula had it easy just because she was born in the royal family and was beautiful when she literally has a mental breakdown at the age of 14 and can't make any friends due to how impaired her social skills are due to her upbringing?

 

 

The reason why I am making this comparison is because Cersei and Azula do have some similarities in terms of personality and Tywin is a very similar father to Ozai albeit not quite as horrible. He doesn't discipline her on how they should act in socially acceptable ways and instead teaches her that murdering people is acceptable, he actively encourages her to look down on anyone who isn't a Lannister and not make friends with anyone outside the House, he barely shows her any familial love except on very rare occasions, he pushes her to be "perfect" and beautiful but doesn't encourage any other qualities in her even though Cersei wants to do something wth her life as seen when she and Jaime switch clothes, he teaches her to hate her younger brother and blame him for her mother's death and Cersei knows that if Tywin is not proud of her and she is not "perfect", he will stop favoring her and will start treating her in a similar manner in which he treats Tyrion. The scene where he tries to marry her off without even taking into consideration her opinion and the fact he must have heard at least something about how Robert treated her (even if not about the rapes, at least about how he disrespects her in public) but doesn't seem to care that much and just wants to marry her off to someone else to increase his own power shows to me how much he truly respects.

This is not even talking about the other tragedies Cersei suffered in her life like losing her mother at a very young age, the general sexism she has to deal with her whole life and how she has a twin brother to always remind her how he gets treated compared to her, her spending most of her life fearing for her life and the lives of her children because of Maggy's prophecy which as we seen in AFFC had a very huge toll on her mental health and a lot of the atrocities she commits are done to prevent that prophecy from happening and to save herself and her children, being raped repeatedly for years by her husband and the fact she had to live in fear throughout her whole marriage that if her affair with Jaime gets discovered, she, Jaime and their children would get executed.

Not everything is about how rich someone is as characters like Azula and Cersei show.

[kissdbyfire]

25 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

After reading this,

I didn't read it, just barely skimmed it b/c the fact that other characters in other works of fiction may or may nor share some traits w/ Cersei is not pertinent here and now. Again, this isn't a "fictional characters that are X, Y or Z" wiki. 

25 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

The reason why I am making this comparison is because Cersei and Azula do have some similarities in terms of personality and Tywin is a very similar father to Ozai albeit not quite as horrible. He doesn't discipline her on how they should act in socially acceptable ways and instead teaches her that murdering people is acceptable, he actively encourages her to look down on anyone who isn't a Lannister and not make friends with anyone outside the House, he barely shows her any familial love except on very rare occasions, he pushes her to be "perfect" and beautiful but doesn't encourage any other qualities in her even though Cersei wants to do something wth her life as seen when she and Jaime switch clothes, he teaches her to hate her younger brother and blame him for her mother's death and Cersei knows that if Tywin is not proud of her and she is not "perfect", he will stop favoring her and will start treating her in a similar manner in which he treats Tyrion. The scene where he tries to marry her off without even taking into consideration her opinion and the fact he must have heard at least something about how Robert treated her (even if not about the rapes, at least about how he disrespects her in public) but doesn't seem to care that much and just wants to marry her off to someone else to increase his own power shows to me how much he truly respects.

This is not even talking about the other tragedies Cersei suffered in her life like losing her mother at a very young age, the general sexism she has to deal with her whole life and how she has a twin brother to always remind her how he gets treated compared to her, her spending most of her life fearing for her life and the lives of her children because of Maggy's prophecy which as we seen in AFFC had a very huge toll on her mental health and a lot of the atrocities she commits are done to prevent that prophecy from happening and to save herself and her children, being raped repeatedly for years by her husband and the fact she had to live in fear throughout her whole marriage that if her affair with Jaime gets discovered, she, Jaime and their children would get executed.

Not everything is about how rich someone is as characters like Azula and Cersei show.

And here all you do is mostly project what you think her upbringing was like. I find it astounding that you seem not to be aware of this. You are filling in many blanks w/ your own fanfic. Are some of these things possible? Sure. But that doesn't make your little backstory canon.

And more, none of it, even if it were true, would justify or excuse Cersei in any way. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[boltons are sick]

18 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And more, none of it, even if it were true, would justify or excuse Cersei in any way. 

It doesn't justify everything she does (though it justifies some of her actions) but it is an excuse for her because you can't realistically expect someone who has lived through all of these things to act in any other way than what she is doing. It's not like any of us have experienced all these things. And, like I said, her murder of Robert and her actions against Ned are perfectly justifiable because otherwise she and her children would have been executed and Robert raped her, so I don't blame her at all for that.

Also, I don't really understand why you are so focused on "how bad Cersei is" when she is no worse than a lot of other caracters in Westeros who also do horrible things but are excused and loved by the fans for different reasons. Daenerys does equally horrible things like burning a woman alive for taking revenge against the person who slaughtered her town, tortured two kids in front of their father and crusified 163 random people without even asking if they are guilty or not but you make excuses for her and don't talk about how her circumstances don't justify her atrocities. Cersei has power over millions of people and yet, she just tortures and kills a relatively low number of people and only does it when she thinks she can save her children in that way which makes her tame in terms of Westerosi rulers like Aerys or Maegor, so it's not like she is extraordinarily worse than most other characters in the series she just has an unpleasant personality and that's why fans don't sympathize with her as much as they do with other characters even though she doesn't do worse things.

Edited September 24, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Craving Peaches]

25 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

you can't realistically expect someone who has lived through all of these things to act in any other way than what she is doing

Sure you can, because Lysa and other women don't act like that. Even if someone had a bad father and grew up in a sexist society (notwithstanding that Cersei is in an enormously privileged position overall), I don't expect them to murder babies and bang their brother.

[Odej]

If there is a moment in which it can be said that Cersei Lannister is a bad person, it is when it comes to Melara.

We have a ten-year-old Cersei who has just heard a witch prophesy that she will have a very tragic future. It's completely understandable that the girl would be scared, it would be believable for her to look for someone she trusts to tell her about it (Jaime or Aunt Genna), but it's also believable for her to stay silent because she doesn't want anyone else to know about it. Over time, she could have nightmares, become depressed or have tantrums, become paranoid, in short, all the common behavior of someone who has gone through a traumatic experience.

But the Cersei who threw her friend into the well is not the adult Cersei from AFFC who has had a whole life to feed fear and paranoia. She was a child who shortly after visiting Maggy and still thinking the old witch was bluffing, chose to deal with what she had heard by KILLING A PERSON. Cersei pushed a girl her own age, her companion, into a well and stood close enough to hear the girl scream for help until she died. The only way a child would have the urge to do such a thing is if she had serious character defects. Because of this, nothing convinces me that Cersei did all or most of the biggest atrocities she did because of her traumas, she is evil.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Odej

[Odej]

But talking about Petyr, yes the man is trash. Everything about his relationship with Sansa is disgusting.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Odej

[kissdbyfire]

57 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

It doesn't justify everything she does (though it justifies some of her actions)

Is having babies and infants murdered justified? Or perhaps having a bunch of little people murdered when she tries to get Tyrion murdered? Which of her actions are justified?

 

57 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

but it is an excuse for her because you can't realistically expect someone who has lived through all of these things to act in any other way than what she is doing.
 

What are you on about when you say “someone who has lived through all of these things”? I feel as if we’re talking about entirely different characters here. And for the record, I sure as shit expect someone like her to act differently than she does. 

57 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

It's not like any of us have experienced all these things.
 

The only concession I can make here is, yes, none of us have experienced life in Westeros. 

57 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

And, like I said, her murder of Robert and her actions against Ned are perfectly justifiable because otherwise she and her children would have been executed and Robert raped her, so I don't blame her at all for that.

No, just no. 

57 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Also, I don't really understand why you are so focused on "how bad Cersei is"

Sigh. More projection. I’m not focused on how bad Cersei is, it is you who is blindly focused on “how Cersei is not that bad, and even when she does despicable & evil things she is justified b/c of the traumas and hardships she has endured”. Which is, quite frankly, a preposterous argument. 

57 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

when she is no worse than a lot of other caracters in Westeros who also do horrible things but are excused and loved by the fans for different reasons.

For the umpteenth time, “she is not as bad as other characters”, while true, isn’t a great argument. 

 

57 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Daenerys does equally horrible things like burning a woman alive for taking revenge against the person who slaughtered her town, tortured two kids in front of their father and crusified 163 random people without even asking if they are guilty or not but you make excuses for her and don't talk about how her circumstances don't justify her atrocities.
 

How do you know I don’t criticise Dany for some of the things she’s done? FYI, I do, as I criticise all characters to varying degrees b/c they’re all flawed and they all make mistakes. 
Of course, it should go w/o saying that Dany has gone through horrific traumas and hardships, unlike Cersei who has only gone though stuff like that in your head. Another difference between the two is that while Dany is trying to rid Essos of the scourge of slavery, Cersei is trying to rid the world of Robert’s bastards and little people on the off chance that one of them is her hated brother. 
Poor put upon Cersei wouldn’t last 5 minutes in Dany’s shoes by the way. 

57 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Cersei has power over millions of people and yet, she just tortures and kills a relatively low number of people and only does it when she thinks she can save her children in that way

FYI “Cersei is not evil b/c she could have killed and tortured millions but only did it to a relatively small number of people” is really, really, not the best defence. 

And NO, this argument you keep making is blatantly false, just stop it. She doesn’t have Robert’s bastards killed “to save her children”. She does it out of spite and pettiness. Same with Melara. And all those she has killed while trying to kill Tyrion. And don’t get me started on all of those she sends to Qyburn’s Chamber of Horrors. 

57 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

which makes her tame in terms of Westerosi rulers like Aerys or Maegor, so it's not like she is extraordinarily worse than most other characters in the series she just has an unpleasant personality and that's why fans don't sympathize with her as much as they do with other characters even though she doesn't do worse things.

This is another ridiculous argument that doesn’t hold any water. Yes, there are more evil characters, but most are little more than plot devices like Ramsay or the Mountain. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[Craving Peaches]

Aside from Melara the way Cersei treats baby Tyrion is downright disturbing, not just because of what she does (abuses him) but the fact she's only seven when she does it. She gets pleasure out of hurting her baby brother. That is not right. She defaults to threats of death/mutilation to deal with all her issues. Look at the way Cersei treats people who are supposed to be her friends. Cersei is one of the vilest characters.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

It doesn't justify everything she does (though it justifies some of her actions) but it is an excuse for her because you can't realistically expect someone who has lived through all of these things to act in any other way than what she is doing. It's not like any of us have experienced all these things. And, like I said, her murder of Robert and her actions against Ned are perfectly justifiable because otherwise she and her children would have been executed and Robert raped her, so I don't blame her at all for that.

Also, I don't really understand why you are so focused on "how bad Cersei is" when she is no worse than a lot of other caracters in Westeros who also do horrible things but are excused and loved by the fans for different reasons. Daenerys does equally horrible things like burning a woman alive for taking revenge against the person who slaughtered her town, tortured two kids in front of their father and crusified 163 random people without even asking if they are guilty or not but you make excuses for her and don't talk about how her circumstances don't justify her atrocities. Cersei has power over millions of people and yet, she just tortures and kills a relatively low number of people and only does it when she thinks she can save her children in that way which makes her tame in terms of Westerosi rulers like Aerys or Maegor, so it's not like she is extraordinarily worse than most other characters in the series she just has an unpleasant personality and that's why fans don't sympathize with her as much as they do with other characters even though she doesn't do worse things.

Most women in asoiaf have patriarchal fathers and arranged marriages. I can't think of a single one that turned out like Cersei. No. Daenerys isn't as bad as Cersei. Not even close.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

she just tortures and kills a relatively low number of people

Guess how many most people in Westeros torture and kill? Zero.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Lee-Sensei said:

Most women in asoiaf have patriarchal fathers and arranged marriages. I can't think of a single one that turned out like Cersei. No. Daenerys isn't as bad as Cersei. Not even close.

Daenerys is acting because of her sense of morality and justice, Cersei is acting because she's power hungry.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Daenerys is acting because of her sense of morality and justice, Cersei is acting because she's power hungry.

And incredibly petty and vindicative. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9

[sifth]

14 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Daenerys is acting because of her sense of morality and justice, Cersei is acting because she's power hungry.

Dany is also freeing people from slavery, while Cersei is giving people who know too much to Qyburn and his extracurricular activities.

[Lee-Sensei]

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Daenerys is acting because of her sense of morality and justice, Cersei is acting because she's power hungry.

Daenerys also has a lot more reasons to be messed up. She's suffered far more than Cersei ever did and came out of it a much better person.

 

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Daenerys also has a lot more reasons to be messed up. She's suffered far more than Cersei ever did and came out of it a much better person.

 

I think the person who comes closest to Cersei is Lysa. She had a 'harsh' father and had to marry a man she didn't like, and she 'only' kills her husband and tries to frame someone else after persuasion from the person she's madly in love with. We don't see Lysa going out of her way to murder babies. We also have no confirmation she passed off anyone else's child as Jon's (there was a theory that SR was Littlefinger's but I don't think there's that much to really back that up).