Wheel of Time 4: Burning Threads [Book Spoilers]

[Arakasi]

Also getting into nitpicks about power math or the technology of magic and magic items while interesting in a book medium does not make good tv. Maia was also right in that Jordan violated rules all the time but even besides that it’s clear they’re simplifying it all down from a magic as technology standpoint because they just can’t waste the time explaining all that. Like for example in the books with how suldam are vs what egwene said here. Definitely different and simpler.

[fionwe1987]

I was also irritated by the braid being cut. Less so because that was a big requirement for Nynaeve's character, but because Egwene actually unbraids her hair herself in the books, and to me it was one of those things in book 1 that hooked me, that made it clear she wasn't going to be the typical fantasy girlfriend character. 

Of course, the show made the braid mean a lot more, so her voluntarily getting rid of it would have been wholly different, but it's a big change to the character nonetheless. 

On the a'dam:

Egwene states specifically in the books that she could touch the collar. And she could also channel into it to probe it, but it made her sick to do that:

Quote

Egwene stood far back from the window. She did not want any of the women below to look up and see the glow that she knew surrounded her as she channeled the One Power, probing delicately at the collar around her neck, searching futilely; she could not even tell whether the band was woven or made of links—sometimes it seemed one, sometimes the other—but it seemed all of a piece all the time. It was only a tiny trickle of the Power, the merest drip that she could imagine, but it still beaded sweat on her face and made her stomach clench.

So clearly, a damane can touch her own collar. The question then becomes, can she touch another?

Firstly, I'm willing to buy the programming had a hole, in this. An edge case, a risk that wasn't frequently encountered, so one the code didn't account for. This is literally the problem the world is facing with AI now, so I'm not particularly fussed that something similar existed with the a'dam.

But I also think this can be explained away: just like the pitcher, the a'dam doesn't need to be used for pain. It can simply be used as a link, a way to share each others feelings, and to work the Power together. 

The a'dam would already prevent Egwene from hurting Renna, so all Egwene would have to do is intend to put the collar on Renna and not immediately cause her pain.

Now, if she did this with the pitcher, with a future plan to lift it then change her mind, it wouldn't work.

But with another a'dam, I think collaring your leash holder would clearly cancel out your own leash, at least in terms of the other being able to control your use of the Power. On the pain front, if you're going to feel 2x the pain she feels, and she's going to feel 2x yours, you're both incentivised not to cause pain, and in the scene, Egwene didn't start making Renna feel pain. She just told Renna her theory, and then Renna started trying to hurt Egwene, and felt the pain, and that's when she realized she truly was collared.

Then, Egwene channels. This is definitely possible for her to do, with discomfort, which she clearly shows. She intends to hurt Renna, but at this point, she's both Renna's damane and her sul'dam, and while her collar is meant to block that, the leash is meant to permit that. And we know from the books that when two similar ter'angreal are used in close proximity, they can interfere with each other's function. 

So I can buy that Egwene truly only intended to put the collar, and not cause pain, when she put it on. The rest wasn't something she could know for sure would happen. That Renna would shoot herself in the foot, so to speak, isn't on Egwene, and the a'dam can't prevent actions based on that. The control is purely over Egwene's actions and intentions. Since she cannot guarantee Renna's actions, the a'dam cannot control her based on her speculations of those. And once the a'dam is on Renna, and Egwene has both her own collar and Renna's leash on her person, the idea that they'd interfere is entirely in keeping with the books. 

Let's put it this way: this never happens in the books. But it was something people had speculated upon. It's a reasonable extension from the rules of the books.

On Moiraine: the Oath violation makes no sense. There's no interpretation of the Oaths that allows her to do what she did, except if she thought they were Darkfriends, which she had every reason to buy, so I dunno wtf they were doing there. 

But she absolutely is strong enough to send fireballs at the ships far away. The One Power does get harder to use at greater distances, but it's a matter of skill to handle that. Windfinders of all strength levels are able to make cable thick weaves of water and air that can spread all the way to the horizon line, and affect the weather at a large scale. Individual Windfinders of great skill can change the weather of a significant portion of the continent, per Ishamael. Moiraine herself is able to create a giant fog that covers all of the Manethrendrelle river line for miles, while riding a horse at speed.

We also see Rand discuss this during the battle of Cairhein, that it is a strain to reach far, but doable, especially with his angreal. 

So Moiraine having the capability to destroy those ships is fine. That the Seanchan have no one posted to defend those ships is a whole other matter. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by fionwe1987

[SpaceChampion]

I'm still thinking new Chosen will be raised, beyond Taim, and given names we know.

We only know 6 have been named, and there are two more that Lanfear calls "the boys"

1. Ishamael
2. Lanfear
3. Moghedien
4. Graendal
5. Asmodean
6. Sammael

The 2 boys might be Aginor (creator of the Trollocs) and Balthamel (a historian might be interesting to put against Verin, and have her kill him to keep the illusion she's not Black Ajah).

If I had to chose, Liandrin becomes Mesaana, Alviarin becomes Semirhage, Taim becomes Demandred (instead of being Demandred all along).  Maybe another two Asha'man becomes Rahvin and Be'lal -- Maybe Gedwyn and Rochaid.

[Poobah]

14 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

If I had to chose, Liandrin becomes Mesaana, Alviarin becomes Semirhage, Taim becomes Demandred (instead of being Demandred all along).  Maybe another two Asha'man becomes Rahvin and Be'lal -- Maybe Gedwyn and Rochaid.

That's a really cool theory. I like it. Personally I'd flip Liandrin and Alviarin's titles given their roles and predilections.

[Gaston de Foix]

7 hours ago, hauberk said:

There is also a third - if I put her in the a’dam she’ll either a) stop attacking or b) cause herself harm by continuing to attack making the act of using it either defensive or passive. 
 

None of that relieves stringing her up with the a’dam. 

Right.  It can only work if the second a'dam overrides the first and what (invented) rule would justify that?

[Gaston de Foix]

1 hour ago, SpaceChampion said:

We only know 6 have been named, and there are two more that Lanfear calls "the boys"

How do we know that "the boys" are only two in number? Based on counting the broken cuendillar?

[SpaceChampion]

9 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

How do we know that "the boys" are only two in number? Based on counting the broken cuendillar?

Yes.  At the time Lanfear said "the boys" it was 3, but Sammael since has been named.

Actually I'm blanking on when Asmodean was named.  Anyone remember?

Edited October 8, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[Arakasi]

Asmodean wasn’t named but in s1 there was a figurine with a lute and similarly a statue in season 2.

Not sure if you can have Liandrin take the Messana role because one she’s already been outed as black ajah and two I think it would take away from Nyneave and Elayne hunting her down. They’ve already setup the Nyneave Liandrin conflict.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Arakasi

[fionwe1987]

I like the idea of new Forsaken, but they'll have to deal with the power disparity somehow. Alviarin or Liandrin, at their current power levels, would just not be a match for Elayne, Egwene or Nynaeve. 

Maybe angreal? But even that doesn't make much sense, in the long run, because most of the main characters get their own angreal. 

Also, I'd like for one of the "boys" to be Balthamel, but they voluntarily transition, somehow.

[SpaceChampion]

1 hour ago, Arakasi said:

Not sure if you can have Liandrin take the Messana role because one she’s already been outed as black ajah and two I think it would take away from Nyneave and Elayne hunting her down. They’ve already setup the Nyneave Liandrin conflict.

Initially i had Liandrin as Semirhage but her cruelty level has to be upped considerably, and she doesn't have that psychologist background.

I was thinking Semi and Mesaana actually switch domains, with the later with the Seanchan (and seeing Liandrin kill the Empress and starting the civil war) while Semirhage plays in the tower torturing and forcibly converting Aes Sedai.

41 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

I like the idea of new Forsaken, but they'll have to deal with the power disparity somehow. Alviarin or Liandrin, at their current power levels, would just not be a match for Elayne, Egwene or Nynaeve.

Could be due to the True Power.   No reason the amount of TP they can channel correlates to their strength in the OP.

Edited October 8, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[fionwe1987]

18 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

Initially i had Liandrin as Semirhage but her cruelty level has to be upped considerably, and she doesn't have that psychologist background.

Semirhage was a Healer. Graendal was the psychologist. 

18 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

I was thinking Semi and Mesaana actually switch domains, with the later with the Seanchan (and seeing Liandrin kill the Empress and starting the civil war) while Semirhage plays in the tower torturing and forcibly converting Aes Sedai.

Hmmm. Not opposed to something like that. 

18 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

Could be due to the True Power.   No reason the amount of TP they can channel correlates to their strength in the OP.

Interesting idea. In the books, the One Power and True Power rarely come in conflict, which was just weird. It would allow the show to write its own rules, though I'm not exactly sure they'll do it very well. Still, it's an intriguing idea, and a way to show some current age perspectives in the goals of the Shadow.

[Maltaran]

11 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

. 

Interesting idea. In the books, the One Power and True Power rarely come in conflict, which was just weird. It would allow the show to write its own rules, though I'm not exactly sure they'll do it very well. Still, it's an intriguing idea, and a way to show some current age perspectives in the goals of the Shadow.

That’s because the Forsaken all thought the TP too dangerous to use regularly, except for Ishamael/Moridin, and the others thought he was crazy anyway. So the only interaction we got was the “crossing the streams” in Shadar Logoth at the end of CoS

[fionwe1987]

16 minutes ago, Maltaran said:

That’s because the Forsaken all thought the TP too dangerous to use regularly, except for Ishamael/Moridin, and the others thought he was crazy anyway. So the only interaction we got was the “crossing the streams” in Shadar Logoth at the end of CoS

Yes, but it's possible to buy that the Dark One offers it to somewhat weaker channelers from this Age, who will have fewer objections, less technical knowledge, and therefore more eager for the power to boost themselves.

Again, the books didn't explore this at all, tell the very end when Taim got access to it, in trickles, and Moghedien at the very end. So expanding on that would be interesting. 

[SpaceChampion]

It would also be worthwhile to have someone like Moggy relatively weak in the OP but strong in the TP, and she becomes the one who pioneered using saidar as a conduit for the TP and be shielded from its ill effects -- though she's plenty crazy already so maybe it took her a while before she figure out how to do that in the AoL.

So capturing her becomes critical for Nynaeve and Rand to figure out how to heal the taint.

Edited October 8, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[karaddin]

I think newly raised Chosen is the best fit for Rafe's comment on "can't confirm or deny if there are 8" combined with what we've already seen.

[SpaceChampion]

Another idea i just thought of:  Moridin will be using Ingtar's body.

Edited October 8, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[Spockydog]

So I just skimmed the first page in this thread, and people seem to be just talking about the story, instead of how awful the show is. Does this mean that it got better?

[Arakasi]

Ugh don’t like that. Ingtars actor was fine and all but nowhere near the presence of Fares. I just don’t think that works but just because of actors involved.

Edit: The show was never awful even season 1. I think you’re looking for the rings of power thread. Underwhelming sure at times and season one finale was a dud for sure but I wouldn’t call any of it awful compared to things like ring of power or Witcher or other fantasy shows.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Arakasi

[Gaston de Foix]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

I think newly raised Chosen is the best fit for Rafe's comment on "can't confirm or deny if there are 8" combined with what we've already seen.

Are you assuming they are already out there or that, like Taim, they will come onto the scene near the end? 

As an aside, I think it would be a shame not to have Demandred reprise his AMOL role.  I thought him falling to Lan was very well done.  

[Gaston de Foix]

27 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

Ugh don’t like that. Ingtars actor was fine and all but nowhere near the presence of Fares. I just don’t think that works but just because of actors involved.

Edit: The show was never awful even season 1. I think you’re looking for the rings of power thread. Underwhelming sure at times and season one finale was a dud for sure but I wouldn’t call any of it awful compared to things like ring of power or Witcher or other fantasy shows.

Rings of Power was an abomination.  WOT season 1 was frequently mediocre.  Big difference IMHO.