US Politics: Dominoes falling, GOP failing, what a time to be alive!

[Altherion]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

He believes that anyone who is bothered by Palestinian deaths is siding with Hamas.

Absolutely not. The number of people bothered by Palestinian deaths is much larger than those siding with Hamas. I am only considering the latter, not the former.

15 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Tougher being saying don’t bomb refugee camps and ambulance

Tougher being saying "Send more of your soldiers to die so that more people who hate you want want to see you dead will live."

16 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

would it be productive to label people who think Biden should be more supportive or as supportive as he’s been to Israel as pro-child murder,  pro-self described fascists?

No, it would not. However, unlike with saying that people who side with Hamas are in fact siding with Hamas, the people you would label thus would not agree with you. The people who side with Hamas say that they do so quite openly.

[Varysblackfyre321]

12 minutes ago, Altherion said:

Tougher being saying "Send more of your soldiers to die so that more people who hate you want want to see you dead will live."

Who is saying send US soldiers to die in Gaza or Palestine?

 

edit. Oh wait you meant Israeli soldiers to which every single one is presumably worth a thousand Palestinian children at least.

12 minutes ago, Altherion said:

No, it would not. However, unlike with saying that people who side with Hamas are in fact siding with Hamas, the people you would label thus would not agree with you.

I side against Israel’s disproportionate response(which include war crimes) and not Hamas.

Is that position possible in your world?
Do you side with Israel? If so you’re indirectly siding with Netanyahu who bombing ambulances and refugee camps. You see how reductive and unhelpful that is.

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Varysblackfyre321]

11 minutes ago, Altherion said:

Absolutely not. The number of people bothered by Palestinian deaths is much larger than those siding with Hamas.

By siding with Hamas do you mean just not  liking it when Israel bombs a refugee camp or ambulance or actually going “whoah dude Hamas is awesome!”

Edited November 5, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Altherion]

Just now, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Who is saying send US soldiers to die in Gaza or Palestine?

Nobody. That was in the context of what the US could say to Israel so it would be Israeli soldiers and not US ones.

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I side against Israel’s disproportionate response(which include war crimes) and not Hamas.

Is that position possible in your world?

It's possible, but it's not very interesting -- one could just say "What an awful, awful situation" and be completely right... but also practically pointless as far as determining a course of action is concerned.

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Do you side with Israel? If so you’re indirectly siding with Netanyahu who bombing ambulances and refugee camps. You see how reductive and unhelpful that is.

I don't see why it is reductive and unhelpful. If one does side with Israel (and I do), then yes, one sides with its very imperfect leadership (Netanyahu should have been out as prime minister a long time ago... but based on how Israel selects their leaders, it looks like they're stuck with him until an election can be held). And while the loss of civilian lives is regrettable, it is practically inevitable in war (I think Biden said as much when he was asked about one of the bombings).

[kissdbyfire]

I wonder why that poll asked about support for Hamas and not Palestine, and whether the results were influenced by that. As in, were there people who support Palestinian civilians but picked Hamas b/c that was the choice they were given?
Yes, we know there are lots of bigots and antisemitism in the world but I don’t believe their numbers could be that high? Because 16% showing support for a terrorist organisation is scary af and I would hope an inaccurate result.

[Varysblackfyre321]

10 minutes ago, Altherion said:

Nobody. That was in the context of what the US could say to Israel so it would be Israeli soldiers and not US ones.

I’d be fine with him just saying don’t bomb refugee and ambulances camps just to get one Hamas and I think many others would as well.

10 minutes ago, Altherion said:

It's possible, but it's not very interesting -- one could just say "What an awful, awful situation" and be completely right... but also practically pointless as far as determining a course of action is concerned.

I like less dead babies and kiddies, that’s not an exotic position I know.

10 minutes ago, Altherion said:

I don't see why it is reductive and unhelpful. If one does side with Israel (and I do), then yes, one sides with its very imperfect leadership (Netanyahu

Is a a wanna be dictator whose  appointed a self admitted fascist to over see the west bank.

Would it be productive to now label you as you pro-autocrat and self-described fascist?

 

10 minutes ago, Altherion said:

And while the loss of civilian lives is regrettable, it is practically inevitable in war (I think Biden said as much when he was asked about one of the bombings).

Yep sad unfortunately it’s better for the world and us security for Israel to not commit war crimes that kills thousands of children and will cause a mass refugee crisis that may mean more Israeli soldiers may occasionally get taken off by a homemade Hamas rocket when trying to do a special op or something.

We can both agree at the very least Biden’s priority isn’t just letting Israel run rampant until it feels safe at the cost of everyone else right?

Edited November 5, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Because 16% showing support for a terrorist organisation is scary af and I would hope an inaccurate result.

It’s not that unusual unfortunately . Washington post did a poll after Charlotsville and ten percent of the population identified as alt right.

Suprsingly enough America is less anti semitic than a lot of Europe. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

25 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I side against Israel’s disproportionate response(which include war crimes) and not Hamas.

But would 1% of the people who died on both sides in the last month be dead today if Hamas didn't execute the worst terrorist attack in Israel's history?

Just always keep in mind, to Hamas, a dead Jew is a good thing and a dead Palestinian is also a good thing. Everyone knew Israel would go ballistic as would most countries in the same situation which is what Hamas wanted. Different Israel leadership may have been more humane and kept the death tolls far lower, but there was always going to be an overreaction. 

10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I wonder why that poll asked about support for Hamas and not Palestine, and whether the results were influenced by that. As in, were there people who support Palestinian civilians but picked Hamas b/c that was the choice they were given?

Hamas is the governing body of Gaza. I think if you switch Palestine in you'd have to ask if you sided with Palestinians or Jews.  

Quote

Yes, we know there are lots of bigots and antisemitism in the world but I don’t believe their numbers could be that high? Because 16% showing support for a terrorist organisation is scary af and I would hope an inaccurate result.

Modern history indicates anti-Semitism is not uncommon and in the US it's on the rise. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It’s not that unusual unfortunately . Washington post did a poll after Charlotsville and ten percent of the population identified as alt right.

Suprsingly enough America is less anti semitic than a lot of Europe. 

And those are self reported numbers, so they're probably lower than the actual number. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Hamas is the governing body of Gaza. I think if you switch Palestine in you'd have to ask if you sided with Palestinians or Jews.  

Yeah, it’s just that I’m kind of shocked and trying to find an explanation that means something different than 16% of people polled voicing support for a terrorist organisation. 

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Modern history indicates anti-Semitism is not uncommon and in the US it's on the rise. 

I know but that just seems like such a high number. 

[Fragile Bird]

55 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

edit. Oh wait you meant Israeli soldiers to which every single one is presumably worth a thousand Palestinian children at least.

 

 

See, this is exactly what I consider the nonsense you post. And repulsive nonsense too.

[Varysblackfyre321]

20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

would 1% of the people who died on both sides in the last month be dead today if Hamas didn't execute the worst terrorist attack in Israel's history?

Yeahhh at a certain point you can’t referent October 7 to disqualify responsibility for Israel does in Gaza anymore. 9-11 was also bad. America’s reaction for a large part evil and/or stupid and worth condemning and going “what about Al qaeda” isn’t a power move.

If cops blew up a bank  to get bank robber whose killed people and taken hostages the cops still did something really bad and are at fault for the deaths caused by their explosion.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, it’s just that I’m kind of shocked and trying to find an explanation that means something different than 16% of people polled voicing support for a terrorist organisation. 

Well you have to consider some of those people voicing support for them are neo-Nazi types. I would have preferred neither to also be an option.

Quote

I know but that just seems like such a high number. 

The 16% number isn't really the issue. It's the near 50/50 split among young people who it's fair to assume are disproportionately liberal. That number validates young Jews feeling like they're not safe at school, especially on college campuses. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

10 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

See, this is exactly what I consider the nonsense you post. And repulsive nonsense too.

What is the nonesense? My interlocutor seems adamant to frame condemnation of war crimes that would see hundreds if not thousands of children dead as reprehensible if it theoretically increased the likelihood of an Israeli soldier seeing combat and being killed.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The 16% number isn't really the issue. It's the near 50/50 split among young people who it's fair to assume are disproportionately liberal. That number validates young Jews feeling like they're not safe at school, especially on college campuses. 

I think it’s because primarily they don’t like dead babies and kids which israel is seeming to produce in Gaza a lot.

If a young whipper  snapper had to take a test right after the invasion of Afghanistan or Iraq and asked to side with Saddam Hussain and/or the Taliban or America, that youngster going with the former options doesn’t automatically indicate they’re a jihadist ready to blow up an airport or I guess viciously attack a Kurd, or go try and enslave a woman.

edit grammar I suck at it,

Edited November 6, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Varysblackfyre321]

47 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Hamas is the governing body of Gaza. I think if you switch Palestine in you'd have to ask if you sided with Palestinians or Jews.  

They’re natural contrast would be in Netanyahu’s far right government not Israel as a whole in a general.

If you switched for Palestine you’d just have to ask if you side with Palestine or Israel. A faulty question but better. 
 

Also should note there are Israeli-Palestinian, not every Israeli is a Jew.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

34 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I think it’s because primarily they don’t like dead babies and kids which israel is seeming to produce in Gaza a lot.

That doesn't change the fact anti-Semitism was on the rise in general and on college campuses before Oct. 7 and that people were celebrating what Hamas did before Israel really began to respond. Ignoring that misses a major underlying problem.

15 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

They’re natural contrast would be in Netanyahu’s far right government not Israel as a whole in a general.

If you switched for Palestine you’d just have to ask if you side with Palestine or Israel. A faulty question but better. 

 It's a war between Israel and Hamas. Replacing Hamas with Palestine slants the question.

[House Balstroko]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

The 16% number isn't really the issue. It's the near 50/50 split among young people who it's fair to assume are disproportionately liberal. That number validates young Jews feeling like they're not safe at school, especially on college campuses. 

As I mentioned in the other thread, there needs to be a clear distinction made between supporting the Palestinian cause and blatant anti-semitism masquerading as criticism of Israeli policy. There’s been an uptick in the latter and that needs to be dealt with. Nobody should feel threatened because of their identity. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

It's a war between Israel and Hamas. R

Better fit would Netanyahu’s government and Hamas.

Or Israel and Gaza

 putting Hamas there makes the poll just the  “do you condemn Hamas” meme

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

That doesn't change the fact anti-Semitism was on the rise in general and on college campuses before Oct. 7

Agreed. We agree that the majority of those who went with Hamas in the badly worded poll probably didn’t do so because they hate Jews and love terrorists. and anti-semitism has grown.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

37 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Better fit would Netanyahu’s government and Hamas.

Or Israel and Gaza

 putting Hamas there makes the poll just the  “do you condemn Hamas” meme

Again, no. Hamas attacked Israel, not Netanyahu's government. There are certainly other ways you could frame the poll better, but what you're doing here is comparing apples and oranges. 

Quote

Agreed. We agree that the majority of those who went with Hamas in the badly worded poll probably didn’t do so because they hate Jews and love terrorists. and anti-semitism has grown.

That's why if you're going to ask the question in such a simplistic way "neither" had to be an option. The way it's asked is basically do you support a turd burger or a shit taco for dinner tonight. Personally I'm for shit tacos. You turd burger eaten mofos make me sick.