US Politics: Dominoes falling, GOP failing, what a time to be alive!

[Maithanet]

I am a long way from the best person to answer this question, but not every trans person uses hormones or surgery.  Some people who give birth do not identify as women but have not yet (and may not ever) used hormones/surgery to transition. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

5 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I’m confused. When did people who are not women start giving birth? Do you mean someone transitioning and identifying as male? Don’t the drugs stop both menstruation and the ability to give birth? Or do you mean someone who identifies as male but is not transitioning, or who uses the pronoun ‘they’?

Genuine question here. 

 

It would be referring to transmen and nonbinary individuals.

[Liffguard]

2 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

It would be referring to transmen and nonbinary individuals.

Yep, and also some intersex people.

[Fragile Bird]

6 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

It would be referring to transmen and nonbinary individuals.

I ask because the trans men I know have had their female organs removed. I think a person transitioning to male who gets pregnant would have a very justifiable lawsuit against their doctors for negligence or incompetence.

eta of course, I mean their female reproductive organs

Edited October 30, 2023 by Fragile Bird
Clarification

[Larry of the Lawn]

4 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I ask because the trans men I know have had their female organs removed. I think a person transitioning to male who gets pregnant would have a very justifiable lawsuit against their doctors for negligence or incompetence.

Not everyone who transitions gets surgery or hormones.  

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Does it really bleed into daily life?  Are we seeing Birthing-person Volleyball Leagues and Menstruator Health Centers?  

If any of the usage you could find was actually women being called "menstruators" or some guy saying how his company was going to try to hire more "birthing persons" this might be more of a point.  It's fearmongering at this point.  All the usage we've seen is strictly in a medical context referring to a broad group of people.   

Does the instance that I just wrote about not count? It's in a medical setting, but it's a doctor referring to an individual woman by the term during a visit. That's an example of daily life in my book.

Also, come on: The too-online left loves to overuse academic jargon in daily life. intersectional, micro-aggression, problematic, latinx, etc. I can concede that "birthing person" is limited to clinical settings for now, but for a certain type of activist weirdo, pushing on to the next thing is the whole point. 

[TrackerNeil]

2 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Also, come on: The too-online left loves to overuse academic jargon in daily life. intersectional, micro-aggression, problematic, latinx, etc. I can concede that "birthing person" is limited to clinical settings for now, but for a certain type of activist weirdo, pushing on to the next thing is the whole point. 

Critical race theory was once a fairly obscure term, limited to academics and the like, until it wasn't. Now Republican politicians run against CRT, even if they themselves don't even know what the hell it is. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

Just now, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Does the instance that I just wrote about not count?

 

That a doctor used that phrase in speaking to her?  I don't think so.  I'd again point you to her extensive commentary and history on this issue.

 

Quote

Also, come on: The too-online left loves to overuse academic jargon in daily life. intersectional, micro-aggression, problematic, latinx, etc. I can concede that "birthing person" is limited to clinical settings for now, but for a certain type of activist weirdo, pushing on to the next thing is the whole point. 

Just now, TrackerNeil said:

Critical race theory was once a fairly obscure term, limited to academics and the like, until it wasn't. Now Republican politicians run against CRT, even if they themselves don't even know what the hell it is. 

What's the complaint here?  That words that were only used in an academic setting migrate to general usage?  Isn't that the general trend of education?

We can't say "problematic" now outside of academia?  

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

What's the complaint here?  That words that were only used in an academic setting migrate to general usage?  Isn't that the general trend of education?

We can't say "problematic" now outside of academia?  

The complaint is you seem to be pushing a "what's the harm" kind of logic that doesn't mirror the world we currently live in.

I hate to invoke a "both sides" kind of comparison, but it's merited here. People who said that Florida education bills were strictly about young children were clearly not giving an accurate account of the reality on the ground--whatever their intentions may have been. Even if you think the "inclusive" linguistic reform is a good thing, it's disingenuous to claim that it's simply one little change in one specific academic setting, and nothing else will come of it. 

I brought up the overuse of academic terms by the too-online left to point you to the larger cultural context. You say it's limited to an academic context, to which I say that's nonsense, as activists have injected plenty of other academic words into daily life.  I said "overuse" to indicate a type of mishandling of academic jargon for the sake of political sloganeering, but perhaps I simply should have added "misuse" in my original comment. In any event, to pretend like there aren't micromanaging attempts at cultural programming is disingenuous. Maybe you think it's a good thing, but at least be real about its existence.

13 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

I don't think so.  I'd again point you to her extensive commentary and history on this issue.

Let's step aside from Ana's full portfolio for a bit, and just answer: is it okay for a doctor to refer to a woman as a birthing person in a personal clinical setting, in the way that Ana says happened to her? Because earlier you said that this wasn't happening, and now it seems like you're saying it's okay, or at least are fixated more on the other stuff she said on the topic.

[Larry of the Lawn]

11 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

The complaint is you seem to be pushing a "what's the harm" kind of logic that doesn't mirror the world we currently live in.

I hate to invoke a "both sides" kind of comparison, but it's merited here. People who said that Florida education bills were strictly about young children were clearly not giving an accurate account of the reality on the ground--whatever their intentions may have been. Even if you think the "inclusive" linguistic reform is a good thing, it's disingenuous to claim that it's simply one little change in one specific academic setting, and nothing else will come of it. 

I brought up the overuse of academic terms by the too-online left to point you to the larger cultural context. You say it's limited to an academic context, to which I say that's nonsense, as activists have injected plenty of other academic words into daily life.  I said "overuse" to indicate a type of mishandling of academic jargon for the sake of political sloganeering, but perhaps I simply should have added "misuse" in my original comment. In any event, to pretend like there aren't micromanaging attempts at cultural programming is disingenuous. Maybe you think it's a good thing, but at least be real about its existence.

Let's step aside from Ana's full portfolio for a bit, and just answer: is it okay for a doctor to refer to a woman as a birthing person in a personal clinical setting, in the way that Ana says happened to her? Because earlier you said that this wasn't happening, and now it seems like you're saying it's okay, or at least are fixated more on the other stuff she said on the topic.

I don't fucking know!  Like you said there's no recording and she's been incredibly vague other than that the doctor used that language referring to her in a medical setting.  If the doctor was referring to her in that way in a way related to reproductive health I see no issue.  If the doctor was using birthing person as a synonym for woman that's more of an issue.  

And I'm sorry, but I cannot separate someone's full thoughts and complaints on a subject and their fully public ranting on it when six months later they bring the same issue forward.  

I thought his was a stupid fucking thing for Varys to post here.  I still think it's fucking stupid.  As someone who spends much more time in a blue collar environment than anywhere else I also will admit to having a chip on my shoulder when academics and pundits try to gatekeep language and police it's use amongst us plebs.  

[Kalbear]

It's good to see a whole lot of lefty men talking about this

I don't think we've had enough of their points of view represented 

[Larry of the Lawn]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It's good to see a whole lot of lefty men talking about this

I don't think we've had enough of their points of view represented 

Kal just wading in dropping slurs now

[Zorral]

We should be concerned that the two top figures in the House are both Louisianans, who represent the most KKKest, racist, anti-woman regions of the state, Metairie and Natchitoches (where Partner lived the first years of life). One of them only second in line from taking over the Oval Office in case of 'emergency'.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

I don't fucking know!  Like you said there's no recording and she's been incredibly vague other than that the doctor used that language referring to her in a medical setting.  If the doctor was referring to her in that way in a way related to reproductive health I see no issue.  If the doctor was using birthing person as a synonym for woman that's more of an issue.  

Well, that's fair enough I guess. It also sounds like you're following her comments across the months more avidly than I am, so maybe you know stuff I don't. Still, when people veer into kookiness (if that is applicable here), it usually starts from a reasonable place, and then gets thrown into madness via toxic social media dynamics. My main point is that it's completely reasonable for a woman to be upset by a doctor, who knows the patient is a woman, invoking the term "birthing person" with respect to that person, even if it was in the context of population risk factors. That is an instance of substituting "woman" for the new term, or is close enough to a substitution to make no difference. It's one thing to talk in abstract about specific groups in specific medical write-ups among professional peers, it's another to bring them up to individuals in interpersonal settings.

Is it the end of the world? No, but the medical community should know better.

Maybe this offense made Ana veer into a crazier position, I don't the details, but I think that original stance was perfectly valid.

12 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

I thought his was a stupid fucking thing for Varys to post here.  I still think it's fucking stupid.  As someone who spends much more time in a blue collar environment than anywhere else I also will admit to having a chip on my shoulder when academics and pundits try to gatekeep language and police it's use amongst us plebs. 

Amen. Me too.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

6 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Kal just wading in dropping slurs now

Speaking as a lefty, I'll allow it.

[IheartIheartTesla]

I'm not even sure what the discussion is about, but the use of 'birthing person' isnt just confined to the medical field. Companies also use such phrasing when they provide benefits to employes; for instance, stating birthing parent and non-birthing parent (one example is for when determining family leave when a baby is about to be born). I myself use the phrase when I'm not sure of the personal circumstances of the person/people I'm talking about. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

We should be concerned that the two top figures in the House are both Louisianans, who represent the most KKKest, racist, anti-woman regions of the state, Metairie and Natchitoches (where Partner lived the first years of life). One of them only second in line from taking over the Oval Office in case of 'emergency'.

We should absolutely be concerned about that.

[the prior question mark was a typo]

Edited October 30, 2023 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Zorral]

56 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

We should absolutely be concerned about that?

You don't think it should be worrisome the Speaker of the House, if something happens to Biden and Harris, will be commander in chief, is an out and out KKK racist, who believes the nation is to be governed by the Bible, who believes all women should be forced to be married, without any recourse for divorce, and be pregnant as long as possible, then discarded, while everyone who isn't a white cis Bible thumping male, should be without the vote and no rights at all? 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You don't think it should be worrisome the Speaker of the House, if something happens to Biden and Harris, will be commander in chief, is an out and out KKK racist, who believes the nation is to be governed by the Bible, who believes all women should be forced to be married, without any recourse for divorce, and be pregnant as long as possible, then discarded, while everyone who isn't a white cis Bible thumping male, should be without the vote and no rights at all? 

The question mark is a typo.  Apologies.

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The question mark is a typo.  Apologies.