US Politics: Dominoes falling, GOP failing, what a time to be alive!

[Phylum of Alexandria]

10 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Anyway Kasparian  compared this admittedly awkward sounding term—birthing person—to the n word. 

16 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

She was wrong to do that, for sure. Still, it was something she said off the cuff. I imagine that if she were asked about it later on, she would regret wording it like that. If not, then she needs to have more conversations with her black friends and peers as to why a historical term of threat and menace is not the same as the obnoxious linguistic trend that she is criticizing.

But beyond that gaffe, it's not my place to declare whether or not the language shift she criticizes is worthy of her feelings of hurt or outrage. The fact is that she is hurt and outraged by it, and she's not alone among cis women on the left.

I have posted this NYT quote before, maybe a year back. Admittedly it's just a brief aside in a larger conversation about leftist priorities in a post-Roe world, but this statement by Michelle Goldberg was really striking:

"And then there are kind of, I think, substantive differences, especially around language. I mean, I can tell you that most women I know over 40 seethe at the word “women” being taken out of reproductive rights activism. I mean, I can’t tell you how many conversations I have with people about this who are just so angry about it, because it feels to them like feminism has become another place where cisgender women are supposed to defer and kind of back off and be self-effacing, and worry about other people’s problems. It drives people really crazy."

Goldberg stresses that these are not TERFs, they are just older cis women who don't like the most extreme social and linguistic retooling efforts of recent activists, as they feel increasingly marginalized. It sounds like Ana Kasparian can relate to these women. The issue is less that "birthing person" is an awkward term (and it is). The real issue is that "woman" is taken out as the default term. 

Cis women are not a minority group, but they were and still can be oppressed and marginalized. Shouldn't they at the very least get a voice at the table when talking about what default language is best among advocacy groups and those who accommodate them? A big part of Ana's anger is how quickly and dramatically the norms of speech have shifted, without any such conversation taking place. 

You describe me as outraged, but that's an exaggeration. Still, the fact that it's so hard to see how reasonable Anna's anger can be, is admittedly frustrating to me. To the extent that it's problematic is perhaps an intersectional matter, not something that's just obviously bigotry.

Also, perhaps if left wing platforms wouldn't treat such deviations from orthodoxy as if they were the plague, then Ana and others wouldn't even think of going on right-leaning platforms. Not saying Anna is necessarily going right, but lefty zealotry is a big part of the general rightward radicalization dynamic. The right is far more awful, but the worst of the left is part of the problem, and actually give the right more power. Meanwhile, more and more allies silently seethe, and our coalition weakens. That's my frustration.

 

 

[Martell Spy]

DeSantis allies earn big paychecks on the front lines of his culture fights

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/29/politics/ron-desantis-florida-allies-big-paychecks/index.html

Quote

 

As it was, the ink was barely dry on the contract for that new president, Richard Corcoran, a former state education chief under DeSantis. The day before DeSantis’ Iowa appearance, those New College board members pushed through an agreement that could eventually pay Corcoran up to $1.3 million a year to oversee their university — a school of about 700 students.

Working on the front lines of the culture fights for DeSantis can be quite lucrative, it turns out. Many of the governor’s top lieutenants in charge of executing his hard-charging agenda — which doubles as a platform for his presidential campaign — earn six-figure incomes. In some cases, their pay far outpaces the salaries for their jobs under past Florida governors.

Dr. Joseph Ladapo, the state surgeon general who is leading DeSantis’ crusade against the coronavirus vaccine, collects about $447,000 a year through an arrangement that also includes a paid position at the University of Florida College of Medicine. That’s nearly twice as much as what his predecessor was making when he left the position, which included a salary from the college as well.

 

 

[Zorral]

USA, here we are.

Nietzsche - "Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule."

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

She was wrong to do that

Okay we can agree on that. 

Now can you concede that sometimes the radical position on a current issue is the right one and sometimes it’s good to push for that one?

5 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Still, it was something she said off the cuff.

Not really. All her previous hostile rhetoric around the issue correlates with her genuinely thinking “birthing person” is a slur that shouldn’t be uttered by anyone ever.

AOC far as I know didn’t even do it and she still got attacked.

5 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

But beyond that gaffe, it's not my place to declare whether or not the language shift she criticizes is worthy of her feelings of hurt or outrage.

Not a gaffe and Of course it is okay to criticize her for her criticism.

How far are we taking this reluctance?

How many cristism must never be explored or questioned and 

If a normally progressive objects to the push for a society that only views rape as something with penises can do, goes onto right wing podcasts to complain about the language shift, should everyone never criticize the stance?

5 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

And then there are kind of, I think, substantive differences, especially around language. I mean, I can tell you that most women I know over 40 seethe at the word “women” being taken out of reproductive rights activism. I mean, I can’t tell you how many conversations I have with people about this who are just so angry about it, because it feels to them like feminism has become another place where cisgender women are supposed to defer and kind of back off and be self-effacing, and worry about other people’s problems. It drives people really crazy."

Yes, this also isn’t happening.

5 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Goldberg stresses that these are not TERFs, they are just older cis women who don't like the most extreme social and linguistic retooling efforts of recent activists, as they feel increasingly marginalized.

Eh sounds to me like they’re older cis women with a reactionary blindshot and are insulted over something that’s not really happening, that being to do away with the term women in women’s rights. They may not be terfs themselves but have unfortunately bought into the fearmongering.

Hey not everyone is perfect I have family who straight up vote for progressive causes and candidates but still listen and repeat hotep lies.

5 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

You describe me as outraged, but that's an exaggeration.

In the context over more the packaging of my criticism than the actual substance.

I asked you how can I use more honey here while still giving over my honest thoughts on the moral ethicacy of her position and rhetoric.

Though it legitimately sounds like to me now, you believe it’d be best to simply not voice the thought in any form.

 

5 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Still, the fact that it's so hard to see how reasonable Anna's anger can be, is admittedly frustrating to me.

It’s not reasonable.

5 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Also, perhaps if left wing platforms wouldn't treat such deviations from orthodoxy as if they were the plague, then Ana and others wouldn't even think of going on right-leaning platforms.

She’s been invited on multiple left wing shows from people who disagree with her to discuss her grievance and she already has large platform.
In response she’s stated she wouldn’t platform anyone not affiliated with TYT.

But she does appear to want a hug box where she’s merely told that she’s right.
 

5 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Not saying Anna is necessarily going right, but lefty zealotry is a big part of the general rightward radicalization dynamic.

Broadly and in specific circumstances i can concede that can happen.

in this specific case I genuinely don’t feel that’s the case here given the level of attempts at politely rebuffing her and desire for most people—except her—to move past the issue.

5 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Meanwhile, more and more allies silently seethe, and our coalition weakens. That's my frustration.

 

I’m not sure what’s your prescription. Are people allowed to disagree with such sentiments? If so how?

If not you also must understand that’s also producing people silently seething.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Fragile Bird]

@Varysblackfyre321 what are “hotep lies”?

[Phylum of Alexandria]

32 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Okay we can agree on that. 

Now can you concede that sometimes the radical position on a current issue is the right one and sometimes it’s good to push for that one?

This is not an interesting line of discussion for me. I never said one should never ever take a radical position. But it's only rarely going to be a good option. The problem is that too many people think radicalism should be the default, or something to always consider. I guess it's the more glamorous option in a world with so many institutional problems, but also one that's more often than not rigid, simplistic, unrealistic, and self-defeating. Rather than ask if it's ever a good idea to get radical, better to ask why one feels the need to resort to drastic or radical measures rather than more practical and moderate ones.

41 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Not really. All her previous hostile rhetoric around the issue correlates with her genuinely thinking “birthing person” is a slur that shouldn’t be uttered by anyone ever.

AOC far as I know didn’t even do it and she still got attacked.

I disagree, but I don't feel like going back and forth on the issue. Time will tell whether Ana apologizes for bringing up the n-word. My main point is that you are still denying that she has a valid reason to be upset. You are telling this woman that her feeling of being erased by a wacky shift in cultural norms is not valid. Seems like a rather close-minded take for someone who advocates for accommodation and compassion.

46 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes, this also isn’t happening.

Uh, says you. Forgive me if I take the word of a journalist who both participates in and writes about feminist circles that concern the women she describes in that quote. I certainly would like some focused pieces to expand on what she said there, but the statement still deserves more thought and consideration than you gave in your hasty and convenient dismissal.

50 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I’m not sure what’s your prescription. Are people allowed to disagree with such sentiments? If so how?

If not you also must understand that’s also producing people silently seething.

I'm not sure where you read any part of my comment where I said "thou shalt not" anything. You're free to do as you wish, whatever it may be. My criticism wasn't the fact that you criticized Anna, or felt her response was problematic. My criticism is that you're quick to be suspicious of people who fall just a little bit outside of your moral orthodoxy. You're free to do so, but that path leads to failure and ruin, for reasons I've stated many times before.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

This is not an interesting line of discussion for me. I never said one should never ever take a radical position.

Okay we agree on this I think shouldn’t be that controversial point.

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

But it's only rarely going to be a good option. The problem is that too many people think radicalism should be the default, or something to always consider.

If the “radical” position is the default one it’s not radical. I do agree too many people think deviance from the status quo in even aesthetics is praiseworthy and worth alignment.

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I guess it's the more glamorous option in a world with so many institutional problems, but also one that's more often than not rigid, simplistic, unrealistic, and self-defeating. Rather than ask if it's ever a good idea to get radical, better to ask why one feels the need to resort to drastic or radical measures rather than more practical and moderate ones.

 So those other ones look practical and moderate one.

Listen Obama when he was campaigning expressed his desire for civil unions over same-sex marriage, it was the electorally effective strategy for him and I don’t begrudge him for it. That was the moderate position and easier to sell at the time. If the consensus amongst gay rights activists that Obama’s initial position was the most sensible one and anything beyond it would be detrimental we probably wouldn’t have gotten a lot of the gay rights we enjoy today.

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

My main point is that you are still denying that she has a valid reason to be upset.

She doesn’t.

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I disagree,

On what specific ly? That she attacked AOC for something she didn’t say, and/or thinking birthing person is a slur?

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Seems like a rather close-minded take for someone who advocates for accommodation and compassion.

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Eh sometimes the accommodation sought after genuinely is unreasonable.

If a straight person objects to being called straight and would be preferred to as not affiliated with same sex attraction or normal I probably won’t do it.

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Uh, says you.

Yes and other progressive activist leaders and politicians who aren’t acting the caricature terfs present the modern left as being the caricature some women who aren’t terfs buy into. 

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Forgive me if I take the word of a journalist who both participates in and writes about feminist circles that concern the women she describes in that quote. 

I’ve seen progressive trans woman say they’ve experienced more racism in progressive communities than rural conservative America and gay women say all the lesbians are turning into trans men and pointing to some in her friend group doing such.

People can honestly give their negative anecdotal experience and over extrapolate broad social trends concerning a topic.

Notice how you’re not giving something more substantial than anonymous anecdotes. Like a prominent feminist group titled “x women rights or thing” being changed to “x birthing bodies or pregnant people or people who menstraute thing”  Is there a seriously women’s rights organization pushing for the women’s march to renamed XX chromosome march or do we just have some concerns that someone might.

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I'm not sure where you read any part of my comment where I said "thou shalt not" anything. You're free to do as you wish, whatever it may be. My criticism wasn't the fact that you criticized Anna, or felt her response was problematic. My criticism is that you're quick to be suspicious of people who fall just a little bit outside of your moral orthodoxy.

“Suspicious” “moral orthodoxxy” Jesus Christ, please I haven’t even accused her of being a grifter or calling her a right wing hack.
 I said she’s wrong and how she’s expressing her wrong opinion is unproductive—you know actually saying she’d refuse to platform any leftist outside her organization or being unwilling to have a dialogue over comments with anyone who doesn’t already agree with her(which unsurprisingly tends to be people on the right).

You make it sound as though I demanded she be burnt at the stake when all i did was offer the most mild of negative reaction instead of treating it as substantive and worth absolute respect and belief.

Sounds like I offended your “moral orthodoxy” a bit heh? I kid

  

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Varysblackfyre321]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/donald-trump-s-message-to-mike-pence-after-he-drops-out-of-2024-race/ar-AA1j1rri?OCID=ansmsnnews11

Quote

Donald Trump says his former Vice President Mike Pence should endorse him after Pence announced he was dropping out of the 2024 Republican presidential primary race on Saturday

Trump really wants Pence to go “I’m reek!” 

[DireWolfSpirit]

 

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

@Varysblackfyre321 what are “hotep lies”?

Heres a critical essay over thier use of inaccurate historical narratives. The author suggesting that despite many positives with afrocentrist pride, the hotep's tend to get some of it twisted and also theres misinformation and a disparaging of woman and other groups at work within the subculture as its spread.

https://www.sapiens.org/culture/hotep/

[Fragile Bird]

28 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

 

Heres a critical essay over thier use of inaccurate historical narratives. The author suggesting that despite many positives with afrocentrist pride, the hotep's tend to get some of it twisted and also theres misinformation and a disparaging of woman and other groups at work within the subculture as its spread.

https://www.sapiens.org/culture/hotep/

Ah yes, earlier this year the Minister of Culture, I think, angrily railed against the “blackwashing” of Egyptian culture.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You make it sound as though I demanded she be burnt at the stake when all i did was offer the most mild of negative reaction instead of treating it as substantive and worth absolute respect and belief.

Maybe I could have worded it better, but it really does sound like you're stuck in a bubble of likeminded people. Otherwise Ana's complaints would seem pretty sensible. If you want to actually change the world in a meaningful way, you may want to find out the perspectives and concerns of lowly regular folk before leading them to the correct path. Either that or go for bloody revolution.

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Phylum of Alexandria

[Zorral]

In the Annals of We Are Not Surprised:

Gun sales increase greatly in and around Lewiston since the killer was found dead-suicided. One of his weapons had been found, left in his vehicle.  Two more next to his body.

 

[TrackerNeil]

11 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Goldberg stresses that these are not TERFs, they are just older cis women who don't like the most extreme social and linguistic retooling efforts of recent activists, as they feel increasingly marginalized. It sounds like Ana Kasparian can relate to these women. The issue is less that "birthing person" is an awkward term (and it is). The real issue is that "woman" is taken out as the default term. 

TERF, like "fascist" or "Nazi", is one of those terms freely tossed around to describe anyone with whom one disagrees in the moment, particularly on gender issues. I don't think it's particularly right-wing or oppressive for women to dislike terms like "birthing person" or "menstruators", which to me sound straight out of The Handmaid's Tale. Of course, Margaret Atwood, once a feminist darling, has been deemed "problematic", so perhaps that's intentional.

[JGP]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

In the Annals of We Are Not Surprised:

Gun sales increase greatly in and around Lewiston since the killer was found dead-suicided. One of his weapons had been found, left in his vehicle.  Two more next to his body.

 

Gun culture makes everyone afeared of guns. Vicious circle, all that. 

Tyrion has expressed an interest in continuing her education in the US. Was a big old nope, from both her parents.

[Tywin et al.]

1 hour ago, JGP said:

Tyrion has expressed an interest in continuing her education in the US. Was a big old nope, from both her parents.

Don't be such a stick in the mud, she'll have a great time. Just get her a few new cute outfits, a trendy bag for school, maybe like a Honda Civic, of course with a Triple A card, a rocket launcher, some combination of pistols and shotguns, don't forget the hunting knife and maybe a credit card so she can use it to get food with. She'll be fine.

Also a big dog and defense lessons. Don't forget those. Maybe some nunchakus too if you're feeling over protective. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Just saw an ACLU post on Facebook titled "Say No to Robot Police Dogs".  I just think that's great advice.  

[ThinkerX]

now making the rounds on Facebook...

Facebook

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Maybe I could have worded it better, but it really does sound like you're stuck in a bubble of likeminded people. Otherwise Ana's complaints would seem pretty sensible

Worded what better specifically?

To reiterate again, she literally attacked AOC, one of the most progressive people in congress for using birthing person even when she didn’t.

I don’t think that particular complaint is sensible. Are you really saying Unless one agrees with you on even that complaint being sensible they’re obviously in a eco-chamber? 
 

 

6 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

If you want to actually change the world in a meaningful way, you may want to find out the perspectives and concerns of lowly regular folk before leading them to the correct path.

Jesus Christ again with this undue sanctimony. And lowly regular folk? You make it sound as if we’re talking about some random woman immersed in poverty espousing rhetoric that’s socially premised in her neighborhood instead of a rich white academic who lives around relatively well off people and interacting with other academics and rich people largely.

What is even the prescription here exactly? 
If someone learns what a “lowly regular person” thinks on an issue do they have to then readjust whatever position they have on that particular issue?
Im genuinely asking here because it sounds like if I ever try to say they’re   wrong on something and give an argument as to why they’re wrong I’m just demonstrating as having been in an eco-chamber.

6 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Either that or go for bloody revolution.

Again with this ludicrous false dichotomy .

One either has to agree with you—that it’s sensible to be afraid of the term “women” being taken out of progressive activism just because some random individual  women said they feared it—or do a great amount of violence.

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 hours ago, Zorral said:

In the Annals of We Are Not Surprised:

Gun sales increase greatly in and around Lewiston since the killer was found dead-suicided. One of his weapons had been found, left in his vehicle.  Two more next to his body.

 

This really screams panic buy. I don’t think fretful and anxious people make the best gun carriers.

7 hours ago, TrackerNeil said:

TERF, like "fascist" or "Nazi", is one of those terms freely tossed around to describe anyone with whom one disagrees in the moment, particularly on gender issues.

Yeah I just saw a video from a well beloved tankie on YouTube with kinda the exact same spiel.  moaning how often authoritarian is used especially in the context of justifying western imperialism and asked maybe we should retire the term for its over-broadness.

He for context sake defends the government of China and North Korea.

Anyway my point is sometimes a term with negative connotations is appropriate. Sometimes it’s okay to call someone a nazi, or fascist or an authoritarian or even a terf.

For example  couple years ago Philly pride demonized the trans women at stonewall as men in dresses who merely unjustly attacked the police—one of which was even a woman—who were just trying to do their jobs.

I’m fine using terfish to describe that stunt.

I wouldn’t call Sarah Huckleberry sanders a terf because she generally doesn’t guise her transphobia with feminist concern.

7 hours ago, TrackerNeil said:

I don't think it's particularly right-wing or oppressive for women to dislike terms like "birthing person" or "menstruators", which to me sound straight out of The Handmaid's Tale.

To the bolded how about people who menstraute is that a fair enough compromise lol?
Edit. Anyway  I don’t think it’s right wing or oppressive to wince at terms such able-bodied or neurotypical. I don’t go as far as they’re slurs and wax on right wing podcasts on how progressive circles are going to do things rename themselves to things like Able bodied and disabled workers alliance or something.

7 hours ago, TrackerNeil said:

course, Margaret Atwood, once a feminist darling, has been deemed "problematic", so perhaps that's intentional.

Yeah this is just conspiracy brained. Hey I get how sometimes terms conjured up to be more inclusive don’t work and people aren’t bigots for not being comfortable with them, but when the ACLU uses the term birthing person they’re not trying to provoke people or get people canceled.

The president of the ACLU  isn’t hoping for rich white cis women into going on Twitter and typing out how this is a real war on women and if we’re not careful the next women’s march will be the XX march or something. They just want to be inclusive to trans men and legally precise on who they’re referring to.

edit. It’s fine Kenjani Browm didn’t just answer women when pressed by Hawley (an actual fascist), on she meant when referring to people who can get pregnant I don’t believe anyone alarmed at her response was acting sensibly.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321
Typos, others examples

[The Anti-Targ]

Progressive women would be right to be afraid of being marginalised with the undoing of decades of feminist activism and the achievement of much greater equality because of changes in language, if the attempts to make reproductive discourse more inclusive for trans and non-binary people was some vast anti-woman, patriarchal conspiracy. But the reality is trans and non-binary people, the most marginalised of the marginalised in the world of gender politics just want to be seen and acknowledged when it comes to reproductive issues. And it is especially hurtful to them when it's the people they hoped would be their best allies (feminists) who are fighting them on it.

You don't like birthing person or menstruators? OK fair enough, I don't like it much either. They come off as reducing people to their reproductive function, which for most people is a long way from being the most important characteristic of their self-identity. But come up with some better terms that are inclusive of trans and non-binary people, particularly for those who do menstruate and who do/can give birth.

If one was to ever argue that there's a gender equivalent of using the n word it would be calling a trans-man a woman, or a trans-woman a man.

Edited October 30, 2023 by The Anti-Targ