US Politics: Dominoes falling, GOP failing, what a time to be alive!

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

 

Heres a critical essay over thier use of inaccurate historical narratives. The author suggesting that despite many positives with afrocentrist pride, the hotep's tend to get some of it twisted and also theres misinformation and a disparaging of woman and other groups at work within the subculture as its spread.

https://www.sapiens.org/culture/hotep/

Good essay.

@Fragile Bird this documentary delves a bit more in their queerphobia and misogyny trying to attach actual real issues—systemic racism—to their nonesense.

 

 

[TrackerNeil]

7 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

But come up with some better terms that are inclusive of trans and non-binary people, particularly for those who do menstruate and who do/can give birth.

In general usage, "woman" is not equivalent to a demeaning epithet, and I imagine if I were a woman, I wouldn't accept that it's my responsibility to come up with a replacement for a term that human beings have been using since language existed.

EDITED TO ADD: Before anyone asks, no, I am not suggesting that we go around calling trans-men women, or trans-women men.

Edited October 30, 2023 by TrackerNeil

[Phylum of Alexandria]

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Worded what better specifically?

To reiterate again, she literally attacked AOC, one of the most progressive people in congress for using birthing person even when she didn’t.

I don’t think that particular complaint is sensible. Are you really saying Unless one agrees with you on even that complaint being sensible they’re obviously in a eco-chamber? 

Come on, put in more than the minimal effort to understand what I write, or else don't bother replying. I can't stand endless threads of me unpacking and explaining stuff I already said. I was burned several times in my "Lefty Internal" thread, and I'm not getting suckered into that nonsense again. I'll give you a pass here, and then no more. I worded my criticism as your "orthodoxy," which you said sounds like you were calling for a witch burning. Not that hard to figure out.

Anyway, I never mentioned AOC. If she did that, then that's wrong. I never said Ana was my saint. I said she her complaints about doctors using that stupid language as a default, and similar such cultural changes, were reasonable. Whatever else you have me endorsing is your own imagination at work.

My (yes, sarcastic) comment about regular folk was not about Ana, it's about the millions of people who are outside your bubble. On this particular issue, it seems like Ana has joined the fold, but I was not trying to imply that Ana was the salt of the earth. Nor am I for that matter, but I likely have more exposure to different people with different viewpoints. The point is, even if you're objectively in the right (and I don't think you are), you need better understanding of the masses for better tactics. Otherwise you sound like a space alien and don't even realize it.

Sorry not sorry for the sarcasm that you're taking a bit too literally; I just don't feel like putting in more effort unless you actually do. If you don't feel like putting in more brain power to interpret what I'm trying to convey in a comment and across a thread, that's fine, but let's just end it here.

 

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

56 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

In general usage, "woman" is not equivalent to a demeaning epithet, and I imagine if I were a woman, I wouldn't accept that it's my responsibility to come up with a replacement for a term that human beings have been using since language existed.

EDITED TO ADD: Before anyone asks, no, I am not suggesting that we go around calling trans-men women, or trans-women men.

Are there people claiming the word “woman” is demeaning or insulting?  

[The Anti-Targ]

53 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

In general usage, "woman" is not equivalent to a demeaning epithet, and I imagine if I were a woman, I wouldn't accept that it's my responsibility to come up with a replacement for a term that human beings have been using since language existed.

EDITED TO ADD: Before anyone asks, no, I am not suggesting that we go around calling trans-men women, or trans-women men.

One might think you are though. You seem to want to call all people, as a collective, who can be pregnant "women". And you appear to expect trans-men and non-binary people to just accept being included within that collective reference. It might not be demeaning, but it's dismissive at the least and probably disrespectful, is that any better?

[Phylum of Alexandria]

13 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

One might think you are though. You seem to want to call all people, as a collective, who can be pregnant "women". And you appear to expect trans-men and non-binary people to just accept being included within that collective reference. It might not be demeaning, but it's dismissive at the least and probably disrespectful, is that any better?

No, it's more like an implied asterisk. And in publications, perhaps it could actually be an asterisk.

Women* _{(as well as trans men, who make a X% of the population of focus for this issue)}

 

[TrackerNeil]

24 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

One might think you are though. You seem to want to call all people, as a collective, who can be pregnant "women". And you appear to expect trans-men and non-binary people to just accept being included within that collective reference. It might not be demeaning, but it's dismissive at the least and probably disrespectful, is that any better?

I wish that, instead of "one might think" and "seem to" and "appear to expect", you'd just come out and ask me what I think. Then you wouldn't have to wonder about what others might think, or what I appear to want.

In any case, none of this is relevant to the point I was making; namely, that "woman" is not an insult or a put-down, and it's not morally wrong for women to prefer that term to "birthing body" or whatever.

Edited October 30, 2023 by TrackerNeil

[Phylum of Alexandria]

36 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

I wish that, instead of "one might think" and "seem to" and "appear to expect", you'd just come out and ask me what I think. Then you wouldn't have to wonder about what others might think, or what I appear to want.

In any case, none of this is relevant to the point I was making; namely, that "woman" is not an insult or a put-down, and it's not morally wrong for women to prefer that term to "birthing body" or whatever.

As a left-handed person, I am extremely grateful that I don't live in a society that demonizes me. Because such societies did exist, and possibly still do somewhere in the world. 

I will also say that there is nevertheless some level of marginalization that occurs for people who are lefties. Sometimes it's annoying, sometimes feeling unseen or judged wears you down. But it's nevertheless a benign form of marginalization that no reasonable person would try to upend. 

I am all for humanizing trans people, raising awareness, and furthering their rights. Making trans people into a new kind of "leftie" is a reasonable goal. But to expect that every norm be upended to spotlight the exceptional cases rather than the rule, in order to prevent even benign marginalization, is just...insane. 

At worst, "sinister." At best, merely "gauche." Surely activists can be more adroit than that in securing people's rights? (ok ok I'll stop)

Edited October 30, 2023 by Phylum of Alexandria

[TrackerNeil]

2 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

At worst, "sinister." At best, merely "gauche." Surely activists can be more adroit than that in securing people's rights? (ok ok I'll stop)

Oooh, I wish I were left-handed, so I could be called "sinister."

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 minute ago, TrackerNeil said:

Oooh, I wish I were left-handed, so I could be called "sinister."

Unfortunately, the less glamorous "gauche" is what tends to come up...

[Larry of the Lawn]

41 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

I wish that, instead of "one might think" and "seem to" and "appear to expect", you'd just come out and ask me what I think. Then you wouldn't have to wonder about what others might think, or what I appear to want.

In any case, none of this is relevant to the point I was making; namely, that "woman" is not an insult or a put-down, and it's not morally wrong for women to prefer that term to "birthing body" or whatever.

The mistake you and Ana Kasparian are making is that no one is going around referring to random women as "birthing persons".  The only time that phrase is being used is in a medical sense to be inclusive.  It's not like the word "woman" is being replaced except in very rare and specific circumstances.  

Edited October 30, 2023 by Larry of the Lawn

[TrackerNeil]

10 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

The mistake you and Ana Kasparian are making is that no one is going around referring to random women as "birthing persons".  The only time that phrase is being used is in a medical sense to be inclusive.  It's not like the word "woman" is being replaced except in very rare and specific circumstances.  

I made no such mistake. I said I don't think it's morally wrong for women to dislike being referred to as "menstruators", or what have you. I stand by that. Those who wish to use those identifiers...well, I don't think that's morally wrong, either.

(While we're on the topic, though, it's not just medical professionals using this word; Missouri congresswoman Cori Bush used it. NARAL uses it, as does the ACLU. It's appeared in some government budget documents. This isn't just one doctor in a clinic in the wilderness.)

Edited October 30, 2023 by TrackerNeil

[Liffguard]

3 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

I made no such mistake. I said I don't think it's morally wrong for women to dislike being referred to as "menstruators", or what have you. I stand by that. Those who wish to use those identifiers...well, I don't think that's morally wrong, either.

(While we're on the topic, though, it's not just medical professionals using this word; Missouri congresswoman Cori Bush used it. NARAL uses it. It's appeared in some government budget documents. This isn't just one doctor in a clinic in the Crimea.)

But neither "menstruator" or "birthing people" are being used as a synonym for "women." They're being used as specific descriptors for "people who menstruate" and "people giving birth." Not all women give birth. Hell, not all mothers give birth (adoption exists). Not all who give birth are women. Not all women menstruate. Not all who menstruate are women. The word "woman" isn't being replaced, but there are some situations in which more specific descriptive language is used.

[Larry of the Lawn]

19 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

I made no such mistake. I said I don't think it's morally wrong for women to dislike being referred to as "menstruators", or what have you. I stand by that. 

(While we're on the topic, though, it's not just medical professionals using this word; Missouri congresswoman Cori Bush used it. NARAL uses it. It's appeared in some government budget documents. This isn't just one doctor in a clinic in the Crimea.)

Those are all examples of it being used in a medical context.  Cori Bush was using it in addition to the word "mothers" when talking about how black people get substandard medical care compared to white people. 

This phrase is only being used in a medical context.  No one is replacing the word "woman" with the term "birthing person" in any other context.  

Eta: Also, Cori Bush was a nurse before she was a member of Congress.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Larry of the Lawn

[TrackerNeil]

7 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

This phrase is only being used in a medical context.  No one is replacing the word "woman" with the term "birthing person" in any other context.  

I agree. The term is used in a medical context, but I don't think it's restricted to "rare or specific" circumstances, as you asserted upthread. I'm not sure how rare a term can be considered when it is freely used by well-known activist groups of long standing, sitting members of Congress, and the Biden administration. But I agree that these uses seem to be confined to medicine.

[Larry of the Lawn]

3 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

I agree. The term is used in a medical context, but I don't think it's restricted to "rare or specific" circumstances, as you asserted upthread. I'm not sure how rare a term can be considered when it is freely used by well-known activist groups of long standing, sitting members of Congress, and the Biden administration. But I agree that these uses seem to be confined to medicine.

I'm using "rare" and "specific" to describe how many uses of the word "women" are actually being replaced by usage of "birthing person".  Since it's only in medical contexts that involve birth I think those descriptors are pretty accurate.

And again, Cori Bush was a nurse.

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Larry of the Lawn

[Phylum of Alexandria]

57 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Those are all examples of it being used in a medical context.  Cori Bush was using it in addition to the word "mothers" when talking about how black people get substandard medical care compared to white people. 

This phrase is only being used in a medical context.  No one is replacing the word "woman" with the term "birthing person" in any other context.  

Eta: Also, Cori Bush was a nurse before she was a member of Congress.

In the original video VarysBF posted here that kickstarted this discussion, Ana says that a doctor actually called her a birthing person. Now, we don't have video of the actual encounter, maybe Ana remembered it slightly differently from how the doctor remembered it. I doubt it was a case of, "you look like a healthy birthing person, Ana." Probably more of a "yes, that is a risk for birthing persons of your age group." But it's not simply academic jargon for medical journals...this stuff bleeds into daily life.

[Tywin et al.]

This discussion just reminds me of this:

At some point we're letting this get a bit out of hand.  

[Fragile Bird]

1 hour ago, Liffguard said:

But neither "menstruator" or "birthing people" are being used as a synonym for "women." They're being used as specific descriptors for "people who menstruate" and "people giving birth." Not all women give birth. Hell, not all mothers give birth (adoption exists). Not all who give birth are women. Not all women menstruate. Not all who menstruate are women. The word "woman" isn't being replaced, but there are some situations in which more specific descriptive language is used.

I’m confused. When did people who are not women start giving birth? Do you mean someone transitioning and identifying as male? Don’t the drugs stop both menstruation and the ability to give birth? Or do you mean someone who identifies as male but is not transitioning, or who uses the pronoun ‘they’?

Genuine question here. 

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

11 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

In the original video VarysBF posted here that kickstarted this discussion, Ana says that a doctor actually called her a birthing person. Now, we don't have video of the actual encounter, maybe Ana remembered it slightly differently from how the doctor remembered it. I doubt it was a case of, "you look like a healthy birthing person, Ana." Probably more of a "yes, that is a risk for birthing persons of your age group." But it's not simply academic jargon for medical journals...this stuff bleeds into daily life.

Does it really bleed into daily life?  Are we seeing Birthing-person Volleyball Leagues and Menstruator Health Centers?  

If any of the usage you could find was actually women being called "menstruators" or some guy saying how his company was going to try to hire more "birthing persons" this might be more of a point.  It's fearmongering at this point.  All the usage we've seen is strictly in a medical context referring to a broad group of people.