Lady Dustin and revenge

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

3 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Sigh. Have you been in Korea for so long that somehow, "grab-someone-by-the-ear 'listen' " is now polite language for you?

In Korea, we just don't talk to anyone ever to get their attention, lol. The polite thing is to not interact, lol. I don't know why I said, "listen," lol. I certainly didn't imagine it as grabbing someone by the ear though, more like..."Hey", but I am very far away from the person. Anyways, I'll edit it if it came across weird, lol

But really, Korea is not the most passive country in the world, but....if someone grabbed someone by the ear in public, people would be in shock, lol. I've literally had people cough in my face, and then I say, "Don't cough in my face," and they act like I'm the one breaking social norms by drawing attention to it, rather than them for coughing in my face, lol. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

39 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

First, I don't believe a word that Lady Dustin said to Theon: "Reek" was Ramsay's pet, and you think she's going to tell Reek that she is conspiring to overthrow Ramsay?  She might hold a grudge against a couple dead Starks, but it is insane to think she hates Ned over funeral arrangements more than she hates Ramsay for murdering her beloved nephew.  Let's say I believe that Lady Dustin is pro-Bolton (she isn't): what "vengeful" things has she done?  Made an order to prevent Ned's bones from returning north?  We're not talking about Red Wedding vengeance here.

First, yes. Exactly. There is plenty of evidence that Barbrey Dustin...is not pro-Bolton. She doesn't let Ramsay come to her hall. Like, literally doesn't let him come. She has a clear negative view of Ramsay. And even though she does hate Eddard Stark, she loved Brandon Stark. I think Barbrey Dustin will betray the Boltons (almost certainly) and although I do believe she hated Eddard, the concept that she hates all Starks...I think is just not backed up by evidence. 

Second, doing something weird with Ned's bones..is fucked up...but far from the worst act of vengeance in the books. Like....Eddard is already dead. She isn't murdering anyone by doing that. Honestly, it's one of the least...violent methods toward revenge we've seen in these books. Petyr Baelish feels "scorned" by Catelyn, and angry at all Starks because of said scorned love....so he not only gets Eddard murdered, but also Catelyn, many many of their men, and essentially was a primary antagonist to the destruction of their house (or an attempt to destroy it). Barbrey Dustin didn't let some bones come North. Come on. These things are not comparable. And keep in mind that Eddard actually...did something to Barbrey Dustin, Eddard did NOTHING to Petyr Baelish. Got the love of the woman he was obsessed with. That's it. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 11/3/2023 at 4:48 AM, James Steller said:

I feel like Barbrey just said that to Theon to cover her tracks in case the Boltons make Theon tell them about what he discussed with Lady Dustin.

If that was the case, couldn’t she talk to him about food or the weather instead of her maiden’s blood on Brandon Stark’s cock?

[Prince of the North]

32 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

If that was the case, couldn’t she talk to him about food or the weather instead of her maiden’s blood on Brandon Stark’s cock?

My theory on this has also always been that Lady Barbrey was investigating the truth of the story that Manderly probably told her while trying to obtain her help in opposing the Boltons (i.e. the younger Stark boys aren't dead).  And evidence offered up for this is that the boys hid in the crypts and took some swords with them.  So, Barbrey needed a plausible cover reason for going in the crypts to look for these signs that wouldn't raise Bolton suspicions IF Reek/Theon told them. 

I believe that, while she very well may have resentments toward the Starks, Barbey is still loyal to the North...and resents/hates the Boltons even more.      

Edited November 5, 2023 by Prince of the North

[Kal-L]

6 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

If that was the case, couldn’t she talk to him about food or the weather instead of her maiden’s blood on Brandon Stark’s cock?

That's a good question.

My "in-universe" theory is that she wants the Boltons to know of her supposed past affair with Brandon as well as the ambition of her family to explain her hatred for the Starks (and so her support of Roose Bolton). However I also think it's her way to defuse any doubt about any potential suspicion on her part over Roose's official version of Domeric's murder whose signature doesn't match with Ramsay's savage hand. She knows the truth and the reason behind it.

My "out-universe" theory is that GRRM's gardening writing style led him to want to add some new characteristic to Brandon's character for multiple reasons which led him to quickly insert that rather awkwardly written scene. In the same book we also have new inklings about the story of Ashara Dayne that involved a Stark who would -in Barristan's mind- have dishonored her. Additioning both new elements, we come to the obvious conclusion GRRM was -far too- blatantly leading us to.

That's also why I'm quite ambivalent regarding Theon and Barbrey's talk in the crypt.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Kal-L

[James Steller]

On 11/5/2023 at 6:47 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Petyr Baelish feels "scorned" by Catelyn, and angry at all Starks because of said scorned love....so he not only gets Eddard murdered, but also Catelyn, many many of their men, and essentially was a primary antagonist to the destruction of their house (or an attempt to destroy it). 

Maybe I’m missing something, but what role did Petyr play in orchestrating the Red Wedding? If anything, I’ve heard theories here which argue that he murdered Joffrey to avenge Cat’s murder just as much as it was to spread chaos. And also, even if he did help plan the massacre, Catelyn was never supposed to be a casualty of said wedding, they only killed her because she lost her mind.

 

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, James Steller said:

they only killed her because she lost her mind.

I thought it was just the plan was kill everybody. Do they even have a "to kill list" beforehand? Probably shortlisting core Northern figures such as the king himself ... and his mother, Catelyn.

[James Steller]

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

I thought it was just the plan was kill everybody. Do they even have a "to kill list" beforehand? Probably shortlisting core Northern figures such as the king himself ... and his mother, Catelyn.

Maybe I was taking Tywin too seriously when he said that Catelyn was meant to become a hostage. She would be used to leverage the fall of Riverrun, or so I assumed. Plus given the fact that the Freys killed her last after everyone else was already dead, it seemed like it was an afterthought because her mental breakdown. But it also does make sense that she was always meant to die. 

[SaffronLady]

4 hours ago, James Steller said:

Maybe I was taking Tywin too seriously when he said that Catelyn was meant to become a hostage. She would be used to leverage the fall of Riverrun, or so I assumed. Plus given the fact that the Freys killed her last after everyone else was already dead, it seemed like it was an afterthought because her mental breakdown. But it also does make sense that she was always meant to die. 

I prefer to think Tywin misjudged that Lord Frey could be reliably used to execute such delicate orders when the petty old stud just wants to let the blood run free and make a skull tower.

[Roswell]

Lady Dustin has not given Eddard's bones to her dog.  Saying she wants to do it is not a crime.  It isn't a crime unless she actually goes through with it.  She hasn't earned punishment yet.  Doran has been planning but that is not the same as implementing.  He is guilty of evil within his mind but he doesn't deserve punishment until he does something with his plans.  Arya and Cat are the only ones who have done terrible deeds worthy of equally terrible punishments. 

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Roswell said:

Arya and Cat are the only ones who have done terrible deeds worthy of equally terrible punishments. 

They aren't doing terrible deeds. They are the equally terrible punishments for the Freys, Boltons, and Lannisters. These are the ones that deserve punishment.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 11/7/2023 at 1:47 AM, James Steller said:

Maybe I’m missing something, but what role did Petyr play in orchestrating the Red Wedding? If anything, I’ve heard theories here which argue that he murdered Joffrey to avenge Cat’s murder just as much as it was to spread chaos. And also, even if he did help plan the massacre, Catelyn was never supposed to be a casualty of said wedding, they only killed her because she lost her mind.

 

If he never betrays Eddard, nothing else ever happens. Robb never marches. Cersei most likely is imprisoned as well as Joffrey and co. Catelyn presumbly returns to Winterfell. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

7 hours ago, Roswell said:

Arya and Cat are the only ones who have done terrible deeds worthy of equally terrible punishments. 

What?!?!?!? This is wild. You obiously believe in punitive justice, yet…Arya who literally doing that, and Catelyn, who as Lady Stoneheart is doing that, are the characters you think deserve punishment? That’s seriously wild bro. 

Catelyn deserves NICE things. She literally got piled maybe the most shit of any character in these books. Catelyn deserves to know that her children are okay. She deserves to move on to the next life, whatever that is, in peace, knowing that Arya, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon are okay. That is what Catelyn deserves. 

[Alester Florent]

On 11/7/2023 at 1:47 AM, SaffronLady said:

I prefer to think Tywin misjudged that Lord Frey could be reliably used to execute such delicate orders when the petty old stud just wants to let the blood run free and make a skull tower.

I would expect Walder to prefer to take Cat alive, as she has value as a hostage. Robb needs to die as do his bodyguard, and the common soldiery, who have no ransom value anyway, need to be culled to avoid the risk of spontaneous uprising/fighting back, but otherwise it makes sense to take lords captive rather than killing them, as with Edmure and the Greatjon. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Alester Florent

[SaffronLady]

19 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I would expect Walder to prefer to take Cat alive, as she has value as a hostage. Robb needs to die as do his bodyguard, and the common soldiery, who have no ransom value anyway, need to be culled to avoid the risk of spontaneous uprising/fighting back, but otherwise it makes sense to take lords captive rather than killing them, as with Edmure and the Greatjon. 

Perhaps. But I still stand by the idea that a massacre at a wedding is messy business, where you sometimes kill people more useful to you alive.

[Alester Florent]

Just now, SaffronLady said:

Perhaps. But I still stand by the idea that a massacre at a wedding is messy business, where you sometimes kill people more useful to you alive.

Oh yeah, I suspect he would rather have kept Cat alive, but if she happens to die in proceedings it won't trouble him, as indeed it doesn't.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Catelyn Stark is already getting flogged.  Just look at her now.  A zombie with a fixation on violence and revenge.  It can't get any worse for her.  Arya is traveling down the same road as she slowly loses her mind.  Lady Dustin is living bitter after losing her husband.  She's not happy.  It won't get any worse for her if she doesn't do anything extreme.  Doran is in pain from gout.  Isn't that punishment enough for what we know he has done. 

[SaffronLady]

3 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Catelyn Stark is already getting flogged.  Just look at her now.  A zombie with a fixation on violence and revenge.  It can't get any worse for her.  Arya is traveling down the same road as she slowly loses her mind. 

Just asking, why do you have a hate-boner for the Starks?

[Northern Sword]

14 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Catelyn Stark is already getting flogged.  Just look at her now.  A zombie with a fixation on violence and revenge.  It can't get any worse for her.  Arya is traveling down the same road as she slowly loses her mind.  Lady Dustin is living bitter after losing her husband.  She's not happy.  It won't get any worse for her if she doesn't do anything extreme.  Doran is in pain from gout.  Isn't that punishment enough for what we know he has done. 

Cat has become a malevolent creature brought back from death after watching her family and friends get killed right in front of her. Not looking good for her. Final Death will be welcome for her.

But, Arya and Cat have no similarity in the roads they have travelled, at all. They are not alike in any manner internally, nor has their external experience in life been similar in any facet. 

Cat went mad with grief after the RW, but Arya is far from mad despite all the death and destruction around her.

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Northern Sword

[Darth Sidious]

The punishment and comeuppance have already started for Arya Stark, Doran Martell, and Catelyn Stark.  Arya has gone insane. She’s crazy. Catelyn is a zombie.  Doran is confined by consistent pain and his kids are bad.  Barbrey wants revenge but hasn’t actually done anything yet. I’ll give her a little pass because she’s not a happy person and her attitude towards the Starks is justified.