Israel - Hamas war VIII

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Can someone explain?

I would try, but I'm told one should be sipping coffee when doing it, and I hate coffee. 

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Ran said:

I would try, but I'm told one should be sipping coffee when doing it, and I hate coffee. 

Drink tea instead 

Green tea with lemon...

[Craving Peaches]

Another Israeli politician thinks Gaza should be nuked(!). Even Netanyahu thought the remarks were 'detached from reality', although he himself seems a bit detached from reality with his subsequent comment that 'Israel and the IDF are acting in accordance with the highest standards of international law'.

[Craving Peaches]

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Another Israeli politician thinks Gaza should be nuked(!). Even Netanyahu thought the remarks were 'detached from reality', although he himself seems a bit detached from reality with his subsequent comment that 'Israel and the IDF are acting in accordance with the highest standards of international law'.

The relevant minister has been suspended.

Quote

The Israeli minister who we just reported on saying that dropping a nuclear bomb on Gaza is a possibility has been suspended from government’s meetings indefinitely, Israeli media reported citing a statement by the PM’s office.

In addition to the nuclear bomb comment, Amihai Eliyahu also suggested the entire besieged enclave’s population can move to Ireland or desert areas.

Eliyahu later walked back on his comment saying it was “metaphorical”.

I am confused on how you can metaphorically suggest moving Palestinians to Ireland or the desert.

[Ran]

8 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

Bear in mind Deir Yassin took place in April 1948, a month prior to Israel being given statehood.

Contextualize it and this particular atrocity is part of a pattern of mutual atrocity that escalated as the civil war broke out. I think Deir Yassin is the worst of the Jewish crimes, particularly with its massacre of captured civilians, but other more minor ones did happen. As they did against the Jews.

See here for a useful timeline, and keep in mind that while this civil war is taking place -- a civil war begun by Arabs, attacking Jewish buses -- the surrounding Arab nations have declared their intention to sweep Israel away as soon as the Mandate ends. So Israel's not just fighting in a civil war within the Mandate against Arabs who don't want to allow them a state, but it's trying to figure out how to also be in a position to withstand the promised attack of the Arab nations that intends to unmake the nation that the UN has resolved to give them. Hence Plan Dalet including the idea of capturing and holding territory earmarked for Palestine during the hostilities, as a way of creating buffers and more secure borders during the expected invasion.

@Craving Peaches

To try and give a serious answer as to  why the US supports Israel despite incidents from the 50s that you cite, Wikipedia can do a better job on US-Israel relations, but in general reality is that things are very complicated, always, and that if the US rejected support for every country that did something wrong in the past or was doing something wrong now, it would support no one and be supported by no one (if they applied the same principles).

That said, I agree almost entirely with this Matthew Yglesias piece that the US should probably less prominent in the peace process, should basically have normal rather than extraordinary relations with Israel (with one proviso: the US should continue blocking attempts to misuse the UN's authority against Israel,) and that foreign aid sent to Israel can probably be more usefully applied elsewhere to far poorer countries. 

But none of that solves the conflict. Hamas has to go, grand illusions of some sort of happy binational state need to fall by the way side, and we need to go back to the two-state solution (or maybe try the three-state solution) because that's the closest we've ever gotten to seeing the conflict resolved.

[Varysblackfyre321]

53 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also, and I ask as a genuine question, I am not sure why some Americans treat Israel as such a great 'friend'* after the Lavon Affair (the surviving operatives were actually rewarded by the state for their attempt to kill civilians and try and blame Egypt!) or the sinking of the USS Liberty. I also don't understand why one would want to be friends with a country with such blatant human rights and international law violations. It doesn't seem like it would be very beneficial for a good diplomatic image, and it makes it easy to be accused of hypocrisy and double standards by other countries. Can someone explain?

*Is it just because of political reasons, i.e. need someone in the Middle East?

There are cold geopolitical reasons to support Israel mainly to keep down other regional powers like Iran but the fervor within the public can’t be explained by just that.

A bit of the old belief israel being the “only” democracy in the Middle East thus needing protection is responsible but it’s mainly Racism, racism geared around liberal sensibilities(it’s okay if the people getting oppressed are non-white AND dislike Lgbtq and the women and the people)  and Christian fundamentalism with a tinge of racism (Israel has to take all the land to jettison the apocalypse where most of them will be all sent to hell).

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

50 minutes ago, Ran said:

That said, I agree almost entirely with this Matthew Yglesias piece that the US should probably less prominent in the peace process, should basically have normal rather than extraordinary relations with Israel (with one proviso: the US should continue blocking attempts to misuse the UN's authority against Israel,

That’d be the step up from the current status quo where America backs Israel as a default and always regardless 

50 minutes ago, Ran said:

But none of that solves the conflict. Hamas has to go,

Yeah getting rid of hamas doesn’t mean smooth sailing to peace and how they try to do may be counterproductive or just lead to another group like Hamas taking over.

They got to Ease it with ambulance and refugee bombings.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Varysblackfyre321]

Quote

With sixteen other senators, LR Stéphane Le Rudulier has just tabled a bill “so that anti-Zionism is just as prohibited and condemned as anti-Semitism”. “All these anti-Semitic acts which proliferate on our territory have only one driving force, hatred of Israel,” he justifies. Researcher Nonna Mayer, he recalls, had also highlighted in 2020 that “criticism of Israel and Zionism (in France) is clearly the detonator of anti-Jewish acts, which multiply after each IDF operation in the Palestinian Territories.

https://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/etoiles-de-david-croix-gammees-et-alertes-a-la-bombe-cette-vague-d-antisemitisme-qui-gangrene-la-france-20231031
@Rippounet do you think this bill will pass.

[GrimTuesday]

39 minutes ago, Ran said:

Contextualize it and this particular atrocity is part of a pattern of mutual atrocity that escalated as the civil war broke out. I think Deir Yassin is the worst of the Jewish crimes, particularly with its massacre of captured civilians, but other more minor ones did happen. As they did against the Jews.

See here for a useful timeline, and keep in mind that while this civil war is taking place -- a civil war begun by Arabs, attacking Jewish buses -- the surrounding Arab nations have declared their intention to sweep Israel away as soon as the Mandate ends. So Israel's not just fighting in a civil war within the Mandate against Arabs who don't want to allow them a state, but it's trying to figure out how to also be in a position to withstand the promised attack of the Arab nations that intends to unmake the nation that the UN has resolved to give them. Hence Plan Dalet including the idea of capturing and holding territory earmarked for Palestine during the hostilities, as a way of creating buffers and more secure borders during the expected invasion.

Your insistence on excusing ethnic cleansing is as impressive as it is disturbing. If you do even the tiniest bit digging you will find the bus attack in question is thought to have been a response to the assassination of five members of a Palestinian family that Lehi (You know, the guys who tried to ally with the Nazis) suspected of being informants for the British (You know, the folks governing the provience) 10 days prior. It should also be noted that the place where the attack too place was in Fajja, which had largely significantly depopulated by that point due to attacks from the Zionist paramilitary groups that started as early as May 1947.

Here is video of Al-Azhar University being destroyed, there is now no longer any institutions of higher learning in Gaza.

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I hope for the day the US steps aside and stops shielding Israel from UN condemnation and I hope that day comes soon.

Don’t hold your breath. The other day the UN voted to lift the embargo on Cuba, and guess which were the only two countries to vote against it? 

 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I also don't understand why one would want to be friends with a country with such blatant human rights and international law violations.

Outrage over human rights violations and such make for good speeches but every powerful country only acts on this outrage when and if it doesn’t go against their own interests. Like Saudi Arabia, a country w/ a hideous track record in human rights and a truly terrible place to be a woman. 
Another example, Biden said America’s support for Ukraine and Israel is good for US economy, so there’s that. 

MARTÍNEZ: So the words military assistance can mean a lot of things. What kind of support is Biden really talking about?

KEITH: Weapons, supplying weapons. The White House isn't getting into too many specifics about which ones. Biden made an argument last night, though, that giving these weapons to allies isn't pure charity. It allows the U.S. to update its stockpile, and it supports jobs at defense manufacturers in states like Arizona, Pennsylvania, Ohio and Texas. According to the White House, this funding request would contribute $50 billion to big defense companies and shipyards in the United States to build new missiles and submarines, even. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Another example, Biden said America’s support for Ukraine and Israel is good for US economy, so there’s that. 

Whose is this rhetoric for? The few actual neo-cons?

 

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Like Saudi Arabia, a country w/ a hideous track record in human rights and a truly terrible place to be a woman.

True

[Varysblackfyre321]

17 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Here is video of Al-Azhar University being destroyed, there is now no longer any institutions of higher learning in Gaza.

…but Hamas=isis./s

Edited November 5, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Craving Peaches]

30 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Here is video of Al-Azhar University being destroyed, there is now no longer any institutions of higher learning in Gaza.

What do you recon the excuse will be this time?:

• Hamas fighters were in university
• Hamas secret base under university
• May have been a Hamas commander there
• Hamas blew it up
• PIJ blew it up
• It was a mistake on our part.

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Whose is this rhetoric for? The few actual neo-cons?

Well, it is actually true, isn’t it? The arms industry will make billions upon billions more than they would if there were no wars being waged. But to be fair, I think that’s also a pitch for “conservatives” b/c that’s exactly the type of thing they care about, so this reminder might make them more inclined to support more aid for these countries. 

[Craving Peaches]

Quote

On Saturday, we reported that the UN refugee agency (Unrwa) had confirmed a school it runs in the Jabalia refugee camp had been hit ... This morning, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) told Reuters news agency that a preliminary inquiry suggested it had not targeted the location "but the explosion may have been a result of IDF fire aimed at another target".

I am very sceptical. They still haven't offered any proof, to my knowledge, that Hamas were in the UN and Red Cross approved ambulance convoy(s) they bombed either.

[Relic]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

This morning, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) told Reuters news agency that a preliminary inquiry suggested it had not targeted the location "but the explosion may have been a result of IDF fire aimed at another target".

It's incredible, really, that we have given our governments the power and ability to say "oops maybe we DID murder someone by accident, oh well". Civilian life needs to be valued, and there need to be consequences for ending the lives of noncombatants, be it accidental or not. 

4 weeks have now passed. During that time over 3,900 children have been killed/murdered, with another 1,500 missing and feared dead, since Israel began bombing. A thousand kids a week. 142 a day. 6 kids a hour. One child every ten minutes. 

Madness. 

[Heartofice]

So what do people think is happening here? Is it that they think Israel just want to target the sick and the poor and murder them, so target ambulances and hospitals?

Do people just not believe Hamas purposely build their bases in civilian locations like hospitals for the very purpose of creating human shields? Does that not happen?
 

 

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

The blatant and consistent violations of international law over should come to an end. I mean, I know to a certain extent everyone does and so on, but... The Israeli ambassador even called for people to defend the UN because the UN said what they were doing in Gaza wasn't right.

What I don't understand, is that when there was Apartheid in South Africa, countries (eventually) did something about it with boycotts and economic sanctions. Yet now there is Apartheid in the territories Israel is illegally occupying (according to UN and multiple Human Rights groups), and yet no one (or few people , especially on a national scale) are taking the kind of action they took to try and deal with the issue in South Africa. 

Also, and I ask as a genuine question, I am not sure why some Americans treat Israel as such a great 'friend'* after the Lavon Affair (the surviving operatives were actually rewarded by the state for their attempt to kill civilians and try and blame Egypt!) or the sinking of the USS Liberty. I also don't understand why one would want to be friends with a country with such blatant human rights and international law violations. It doesn't seem like it would be very beneficial for a good diplomatic image, and it makes it easy to be accused of hypocrisy and double standards by other countries. Can someone explain?

*Is it just because of political reasons, i.e. need someone in the Middle East?

For a very brief period, the Soviets thought Israel would be its regional ally.  The early Israeli State was socialist, and most countries in the region were monarchies.  At the outset, I don’t think the US was especially fond of Israel (eg Eisenhower’s reaction to Suez). But, the Cold War gradually changed all that.

As to the USA, I think the civil rights campaign had obvious parallels with South African apartheid, which most US people don’t see with Israel.  US Jews were also disproportionately represented among white supporters of civil rights, which earned them a lot of goodwill among leaders of the campaign.  

The US has an influential Jewish population, and a big evangelical vote base. And US people look at Israel’s enemies, and other states in the region, and conclude (correctly) that they are worse.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

21 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

So what do people think is happening here? Is it that they think Israel just want to target the sick and the poor and murder them, so target ambulances and hospitals?

That or terrorism or that they they don’t much put much stock in Palestinian lives and law and thus are fine blowing up ambulances and refugee camps  to potentially one hamas not even currently launching garbage heaped rockets at Israel.

The last option seems the most generous and reasonable.

21 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Does that not happen?

Do we seriously have to assume every time Israel bombs a refugee camp or an ambulance   there’s some strong utilitarian evidenced based justification for for it?

This predilection towards assuming the IDF can never act act vindictively or negligently is bizarre.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Craving Peaches]

24 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

So what do people think is happening here? Is it that they think Israel just want to target the sick and the poor and murder them, so target ambulances and hospitals?

• Israel has offered no proof so far that I have seen that Hamas was there (especially with regards to the ambulance convoys) - them saying someone 'might' be there doesn't cut it
• Even if Hamas were there, International Law requires Israel's response to be proportionate, which by all indications it is not, because the numbers of civilians dying
• So basically, people are saying Israel should be more careful/use a different methood, unless they are deliberately targeting innocent civilians, in which case they should stop immediately

Stuff like them blowing up water tanks and wells cannot be excused by saying 'Hamas might be there'... It is obviously an action taken to put the civilian population under greater pressure, probably to force them to move.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Craving Peaches