YouTube video: Hypocrisy Much ? | Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire double standards

[Adaneth]

6 hours ago, Him of Many Faces said:

I believe she loves them in her own messed up way, it's just that for her the well-being of her kids and the source of her power are such interwoven concepts in her mind that one also means the other.

This is possible. And she is also paranoid, which I give her some slack for that given the prophecy and Joffrey's murder. But that's the best case one can make for her. 

 

[Adaneth]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That’s what I understood from their post but wanted to double check. I absolutely see the scene in the abomination as rape - b/c it very obviously was. At the same time, there’s no way I can say the same for the scene in the book. It wasn’t written as rape, and doesn’t read as rape; no conflict here between the author’s intention and execution.

Agreed. Although I do think they didn't meant for that scene to be seen as a rape in the show either but the execution was clumsy and the butterfly effect that Martin mentioned. This is based on the interviews that Lena and Nicolaj gave at the time. In the end though, it doesn't matter their intentions, only what we see on the show.

IMO, they should've cut off that scene entirely, given that the context that is in the book was missing in the show. Even then, I would think twice before putting it on the show. As Martin mentioned, the show is about visuals. You are not in the head of any of them. 

[Him of Many Faces]

So far the thread has been stuck on the Catelyn-Cersei comparison, but the OP's post and linked video are about broader hypocrisies. I struggle to find good examples here because I feel like the fans have been critical of everyone, it would be an easier task to think of characters who deserve more slack.

Edited January 14 by Him of Many Faces
wording

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Adaneth said:

Agreed. Although I do think they didn't meant for that scene to be seen as a rape in the show either but the execution was clumsy and the butterfly effect that Martin mentioned. This is based on the interviews that Lena and Nicolaj gave at the time. In the end though, it doesn't matter their intentions, only what we see on the show.

IMO, they should've cut off that scene entirely, given that the context that is in the book was missing in the show. Even then, I would think twice before putting it on the show. As Martin mentioned, the show is about visuals. You are not in the head of any of them. 

Agree overall, though the bit about it being unintentional in the abomination… I don’t know, I find it complicated and far too generous an interpretation given the endless fuck ups. I do however think it is entirely possible for it to have been intentional and at the same time not something that was shared with NCW and Headey. 
I also agree it might have been a better option to cut it entirely, but that would require giving up on one of the big “OMFG shock” moment that was seemingly one of the main objectives for the show runners. 

Edited January 14 by kissdbyfire

[Adaneth]

2 minutes ago, Him of Many Faces said:

So far the thread has been stuck on the Catelyn-Cersei comparison, but the OP's post and linked video are about broader hypocrisies. I struggle to find good examples here because I feel like the fans have been critical of everyone, it would be an easier task to think of characters who deserve more understanding.

I feel like all characters have had their fair share of criticism and understanding, tbh. I'm not sure who is left out. Ramsay maybe? 

[Adaneth]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Agree overall, though the bit about it being unintentional in the abomination… I don’t know, I find it complicated and far too generous an interpretation given the endless fuck ups. 

Oh, it is an abomination alright. I mean the fact that they have sex right next to their son's corpse is mega fucked up, rape or not.

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I do however think it is entirely possible for it to have been intentional and at the same time not something that was shared with NCW and Headey. 

Absolutely. 

Quote

I also agree it might have been a better option to cut it entirely, but that would require giving up on one of the big “OMFG shock” moment that was seemingly one of the main objectives for the show runners. 

And that's the crux of the matter with D&D. 

[Him of Many Faces]

2 minutes ago, Adaneth said:

Ramsay maybe?

Ramsay rescued Winterfell from Theon Greyjoy. He took Moat Cailin without northmen casualties. He's quite the brilliant military strategist, yet he gets zero appreciation for his achievements, everyone is too focused on his less charming activities like torturing Theon. Meanwhile Stannis gets lauded as a great commander while his unsavory actions like killing his brother get too easily forgiven.

I tried.

[Adaneth]

18 minutes ago, Him of Many Faces said:

it would be an easier task to think of characters who deserve more slack.

How about Victarion? I don't know if people have strong feelings against him, I haven't seen many. But I often do feel for the guy.

[Adaneth]

1 minute ago, Him of Many Faces said:

Ramsay rescued Winterfell from Theon Greyjoy. He took Moat Cailin without northmen casualties. He's quite the brilliant military strategist, yet he gets zero appreciation for his achievements, everyone is too focused on his less charming activities like torturing Theon. Meanwhile Stannis gets lauded as a great commander while his unsavory actions like killing his brother get too easily forgiven.

I tried.

I see what you did there. Well done. lol

[Him of Many Faces]

3 minutes ago, Adaneth said:

How about Victarion? I don't know if people have strong feelings against him, I haven't seen many. But I often do feel for the guy.

Like Aero Hotah, Vic hasn't really done anything to generate a strong reaction from the readers. The most morally ambiguous thing he has done is getting an erection over not understanding what Asha was talking about. He's been a simple warrior, following his violent religion, reaving, fucking, being made fun at.

[Landis]

25 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That’s what I understood from their post but wanted to double check. I absolutely see the scene in the abomination as rape - b/c it very obviously was. At the same time, there’s no way I can say the same for the scene in the book. It wasn’t written as rape, and doesn’t read as rape; no conflict here between the author’s intention and execution.

Nope, you both understood me correctly, I have always 100% understood that scene in the books as having been a rape scene, with the subsequent scene in the White Sword Tower underlining this by highlighting that Jaime was the only one of the pair that had control over rules of consent in their relationship. Cersei attempts to force herself on him in that scene and he refuses just as she had refused him in the Sept, a parallel that she herself vocalizes. GRRM describes her as being upset, fearful, and then angry at this realization. I read this as her attempting to retroactively rationalize what had happened as just being rough sex, only to confirm that no, this was Jaime introducing a new willingness to dominate her physically into their relationship which she would no longer have any right to control.

I read that new dynamic as contributing significantly to her subsequent mental collapse and increasingly desperate attempts to remain in control of everything around her, something that gets further heightened when Tywin is murdered by Tyrion. This shift with Jaime has the larger impact though, because he is the only person she seems to have genuinely trusted, and so she spends much of Feast (when we first get her POV), traumatically trying to maintain the illusion of this rosier version of reality, in direct contrast to everything that is actually happening. Certainly, we can try to run with the idea that she's just lost it after her son and father get killed, but so much of her interior monologues and external behaviours revolve around patterns of sexuality and sexual violence that are textbook for a person trying to process a sexual assault. Reading the scenes with Jaime in Storm of Swords as indicating that Cersei understood what happened in the Sept as nonconsensual, everything in Feast actually only served to further confirm that in ways that were surprisingly specific, and very well-done. 

Evidently I'll have to reread and try to figure out what the rest of you seem to find so interesting about GRRM's depiction of this character despite and in spite of your dislike of her. 

[Him of Many Faces]

5 minutes ago, Landis said:

Nope, you both understood me correctly, I have always 100% understood that scene in the books as having been a rape scene, with the subsequent scene in the White Sword Tower underlining this by highlighting that Jaime was the only one of the pair that had control over rules of consent in their relationship. Cersei attempts to force herself on him in that scene and he refuses just as she had refused him in the Sept, a parallel that she herself vocalizes. GRRM describes her as being upset, fearful, and then angry at this realization. I read this as her attempting to retroactively rationalize what had happened as just being rough sex, only to confirm that no, this was Jaime introducing a new willingness to dominate her physically into their relationship which she would no longer have any right to control.

I have never seen this interpretation before. I never considered any of the Cersei-Jaime sex scenes to be rape, but rather some weird fucked up roleplay where Jaime has to "take" Cersei. And if they were intended to be rape then Cersei would surely have thoughts about them in Feast, like she does about Robert raping her, but she doesn't. She actually thinks that sex was only ever good with Jaime after she tries to rape Taena. 

[Adaneth]

17 minutes ago, Landis said:

Evidently I'll have to reread and try to figure out what the rest of you seem to find so interesting about GRRM's depiction of this character despite and in spite of your dislike of her. 

You mean Cersei? I like reading her for basically 2 reasons. She is the main POV in KL, in AFFC, and it is fun and interesting to read how she sees the events and judge people (so wrong). In this regard, I see a lot of similarities with Arianne actually. As a character, I find her very dynamic.

[Landis]

13 minutes ago, Him of Many Faces said:

I have never seen this interpretation before. I never considered any of the Cersei-Jaime sex scenes to be rape, but rather some weird fucked up roleplay where Jaime has to "take" Cersei. And if they were intended to be rape then Cersei would surely have thoughts about them in Feast, like she does about Robert raping her, but she doesn't. She actually thinks that sex was only ever good with Jaime after she tries to rape Taena. 

I don't know that it's productive to go through it all knowing now that I clearly read way too much into what was being done in a literary sense

[Landis]

4 minutes ago, Adaneth said:

You mean Cersei? I like reading her for basically 2 reasons. She is the main POV in KL, in AFFC, and it is fun and interesting to read how she sees the events and judge people (so wrong). In this regard, I see a lot of similarities with Arianne actually. As a character, I find her very dynamic.

Dynamic in what way, though? What motivates the changes you see her as experiencing in the story? 

[Him of Many Faces]

11 minutes ago, Adaneth said:

I like reading her for basically 2 reasons. She is the main POV in KL, in AFFC, and it is fun and interesting to read how she sees the events and judge people (so wrong). In this regard, I see a lot of similarities with Arianne actually. As a character, I find her very dynamic.

I love reading Cersei too and she's my top 3 favorite POV. Her inner monologue is dark comedy gold. 

Edited January 14 by Him of Many Faces

[Adaneth]

7 minutes ago, Landis said:

Dynamic in what way, though? What motivates the changes you see her as experiencing in the story? 

I'll try to be concise and as clear as possible but English is not my mother tongue, so bare with me. By dynamic I don't mean inner change, as in Jamie's case, for example. I find her story arch and actions dynamic. She is proactive, first behind the doors and then full frontal. Usually with terrible results but it makes for a great read and certainly not a dull character. I find her static inward and dynamic outward, if that makes sense? 

Actually, I'm not so sure it's fair to say that she remains static inwards completely either. She obviously becomes worse, and I think in the coming books she will worsen even more. We do have a glimpse of that by the end of the books. I find it interesting that she reflects on her not having friends, female friends. And that she genuinely thinks (wrongly) that Taena is her one true friend. I find that interesting because I see Cersei as despising women, because she despises herself being one.

I do not have sympathy for Cersei but I can find some empathy for her. Without going too far back and analyse her background and upbringing, and Westeros social rules for women, she is in a bad place when we read her POV AFFC. Her first and most beloved son has been killed, and she had witness his agony. I am not a mother but I am a daughter and I don't need to have a child to sympathise with her grief in that regard. Right after that, her father is killed. I think despite of their history, or my opinion is of her as a person, Cersei loved her father. At the very least held him in high regards. But above all, Tywin represented security. He was the "rock" of House Lannister. Furthermore, I think she feels Jamie's change towards her. Add to that the paranoia in regards to Tyrion, which is not without cause, and you have a powder keg ready to explode. 

[StarkTullies]

On 1/8/2024 at 5:02 PM, boltons are sick said:

She literally has a dream where she is chained and tortured by Tyrion (who had already bit off her nipples), but during that dream, she doesn't beg for mercy for herself but instead begs Tyrion not to harm her kids.

When Tommen is choking on wine, she freaks out and dashes straight to him and when it turns out that he wasn't poisoned, she goes away and starts crying due to how scared she had been.

Her overall reaction when Joffrey dies is to cry, beg others to save her son and then she mourns his corpse.

When Cersei manages to get Margaery arrested by the Sparrows and she thinks that if Margaery dies, her kids would be safe because she thinks Marg is the younger queen from Maggy's prophecy, she goes to Tommen, gives him a hug, kisses him and when Tommen asks her why she is crying, Cersei thinks that it's because he is saved and nothing bad would happen to him.

When she is imprisoned and the High Sparrow says she would be allowed to see her son, she drops tears and the text mentions that they were genuine. 

And while she is imprisoned in her cell, she has a nice dream where Jaime is her husband and her son Joffrey is still alive and well.

Of your 6 examples, 2 of them are dreams.  Cersei has 12 POV chapters and if "loving her children" is her defining attribute, we shouldn't have to resort to dreams to prove her loving nature.

5 of the 6 examples you gave (dream or not) is Cersei being saddened over Joffrey's death or hoping that Tommen doesn't die.  That's not a strong case.  And she cried a few times.  Well, Margaery also cried when Joffrey died; did she love him?  No.  Tears do not equate love.

"Her overall reaction when Joffrey dies is to cry, beg others to save her son" is not entirely true.  She was screaming at people to save her son while he was dying, but the instant he was dead, her first reaction was cold vengeance, not sorrow.  See below:

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"He did not choke." Cersei's voice was sharp as Ser Ilyn's sword. "My son was poisoned." She looked to the white knights standing helplessly around her. "Kingsguard, do your duty."

The "text" didn't say her tears were genuine, Cersei's thoughts said that.  Cersei thoughts also said it was Margaery's fault that Cersei tortured and mutilated the Blue Bard into madness, and Melara's fault that Cersei murdered her.  Cersei has no self-awareness.  More importantly, Cersei likely would have cried if she was allowed to see Olenna Tyrell at that point... anything to get her out of the black cells.  Crying to be able to see Tommen is not proof of love.

Your repeated argument in your countless pro-Cersei threads is that all of Cersei's villainous actions are to stop the prophecy... but your own argument works against you in proving her love for her children.  In the prophecy, her children die and she gets displaced by someone younger/more beautiful, and then she is strangled by the valonqar.  Cersei's death comes after the death of her children, so the death of her children brings her one step closer to her own death, according to the prophecy.

Which isn't to say she isn't sad that Joffrey is dead on his own merit.  Joffrey was her favorite child because he was her psychopathic mini-me, and she loved the reflection of herself in him.  Her treatment of Tommen (other than relief that he isn't dead... not a high hurdle to jump over) is abysmal.  Her ridicule of him for being sad over his grandfather's death and her beating Pate bloody to teach Tommen a lesson for having the audacity to have affection for his wife are not the traits of a loving mother.

On 1/8/2024 at 5:02 PM, boltons are sick said:

I don't think I need to give more examples.

I think you do.  None of the examples you gave are convincing.  Not wanting her children to be dead are the only examples I saw, and if that's the best you can do, that proves there aren't many demonstrations of love to point to.

Edited January 14 by StarkTullies

[Adaneth]

Speaking of dreams and Cersei, it's interesting that her first POV chapter opens as follows:

Quote

 

She dreamt she sat the Iron Throne, high above them all.

The courtiers were brightly colored mice below. Great lords and proud ladies knelt before her. Bold young knights laid their swords at her feet and pleaded for her favors, and the queen smiled down at them. Until the dwarf appeared as if from nowhere, pointing at her and howling with laughter. The lords and ladies began to chuckle too, hiding their smiles behind their hands. Only then did the queen realize she was naked.

Horrified, she tried to cover herself with her hands. The barbs and blades of the Iron Throne bit into her flesh as she crouched to hide
her shame. Blood ran red down her legs, as steel teeth gnawed at her buttocks. When she tried to stand, her foot slipped through a gap in the twisted metal. The more she struggled the more the throne engulfed her, tearing chunks of flesh from her breasts and belly, slicing at her arms and legs until they were slick and red, glistening.

And all the while her brother capered below, laughing.

 

It's a foreshadow alright, of what will happen later on. But what I find interesting it's that she is dreaming both of her biggest desire (The Iron Throne) and her biggest fear (Tyrion).

Edited January 14 by Adaneth
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[Universal Sword Donor]

On 1/8/2024 at 4:46 PM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Can you cite a single passage from any book which demonstrates this?  Something other than Cersei saying 'I love my children", please. I can't call any evidence to mind of Cersei's love for anyone but Cersei. As far as I can tell, her kids are just props and mirrors and means to power to her.

" "

I've included every single excerpt from the series that would support or demonstrate that claim.