Is Benjen Stark a deserter?

[Evolett]

 

The other day I came across an old video by the Order of the Green Hand positing that Benjen Stark who has been missing since the beginning of aGoT most likely deserted his post. They propose Ned sent Benjen to the NW on account of his involvement and or knowledge of the events that took place at Harrenhall (this isn’t a new thought). They cite some evidence suggesting this was very much against Benjen’s wishes and theorize that he not only resented Ned for relegating him to a hard life at the Wall, but also manipulated Jon into joining the NW to spite Ned. Check out the link below for the whole theory.

The case made kind of resonated with some thoughts I’ve had about Benjen, having observed many of the things they cite but I hadn’t developed any conclusive thoughts on the matter and desertion never crossed my mind. Maybe I’ve missed something, but I have not seen this possibility discussed in the fandom either.

Apart from the above, no further evidence for his alleged desertion is offered in the post but I find the idea quite intriguing. I’ve gone over the few mentions of him that we have and have identified possible subtle clues that may point in the direction of a potential desertion on his part. What follows is not included in the video. It's my investigation of the subject.

 

1. What might Lord Eddard have done?
   A lot goes through Jon’s mind when he makes the decision to quit the NW to join Robb’s campaign, including wondering how Robb would receive him. He then thinks of Ned’s execution of Gared in connection with Benjen:

 

Quote

He wondered what Lord Eddard might have done if the deserter had been his brother Benjen instead of that ragged stranger.

Would it have been any different?

GRRM often hides things in plain sight. Is this an example?

 

2. Ben Jen

The next potential hint comes from Mormont’s raven when Mormont lectures Jon after his desertion attempt is thwarted by his brothers, and he is returned to the Wall:

Quote

The Old Bear sighed. “You are not the only one touched by this war.

[…..]

Be that as it may, I’d still grieve if she were slain, yet you don’t see me running off. I said the words, just as you did. My place is here … where is yours, boy?”

[…..]

Quorin Halfhand took a captive in the depths of the Gorge, and the man swears that Mance Rayder is massing all his people in some new, secret stronghold he’s found, to what end the gods only know.

Do you think your uncle Benjen was the only ranger we’ve lost this past year?” 

"Ben Jen,” the raven squawked, bobbing its head, bits of egg dribbling from its beak. “Ben Jen. Ben Jen.”

 

Mormont delivers quite a long speech, asking the above question regarding the missing Benjen in between. Note the raven’s reaction to the question and how Benjen is emphasized 3 times by the Ben Jen notation. What is George getting at? Seeing as the theme is Jon’s desertion and we even get a mention of the deserter Mance Rayder just before the question is asked, I do wonder whether Mormont’s raven is associating Benjen with desertion and is telling us that he did in fact desert.

 

3.   Broken Eggs

While Mormont is speaking, the raven is busy helping itself to an egg:

• The raven was pecking at an egg, breaking the shell. Pushing his beak through the hole, he pulled out morsels of white and yoke.
• Mormont is also having eggs for breakfast, crushing his in his fist:

Frowning, Mormont took his last egg and squeezed it in his fist until the shell crunched.

Our attention is drawn to the egg again when the raven makes its Ben Jen comments.

So what’s up with the eggs?

 

A search on the symbolism of broken eggs yielded a variety of meanings including:

•  Breaking free / freedom (breaking out of the shell)
•  Broken promises
•  Unexpected end
•  Setback, failure, fragility, vulnerability

The first two do catch the eye…

 

4.  Theon and Benjen

Lastly, another potential subtle hint: At Robert’s welcoming feast, the guests entering the feast hall are paired with members of the Stark family. Benjen is paired with Theon, they are the last to enter the hall. Are both turncloaks? This pairing may also indicate a sinister fate, similar to Theon’s.

So. What do you think? If he did indeed desert, where could he have gone?

 

Link to Video:

Did Benjen Trick Jon? (Order of the Green Hand, Youtube)

 

Edited April 17 by Evolett

[Nevets]

So, he manipulated Jon by making arguments against joining and suggesting Jon wait a few years, after he has experienced more of life?  Reverse psychology, perhaps?  And Jon's joining spites Ned by getting him out of a jam, since Ned no longer has to find a place for Jon since he can't stay at Winterfell and Ned doesn't want him in KL.  And of course Benjen is bitter and resentful about the fact that he has made it all the way up to being First Ranger, one of the top jobs in the NW.  Definitely a winning theory. 

I think he is either in the Far North or Skagos, doing something important for the Nights Watch.  I expect we will meet up with him in the next book.

[kissdbyfire]

It makes sense that this was proposed by order of the green hand since it reads more like having an idea one finds cool or interesting and then twisting everything to make it fit and then calling it a theory. 

Martin has left some questions about Benjen joining the NW unanswered on purpose. IMO because yes, revealing everything would also reveal details of other plots that he doesn’t want to reveal yet. 
All that said, we do get a little clue in ASoS and AWoIaF. In the former we learn that a black brother spoke during the feast at the Harrenhal tourney urging men to join, and in the latter we are told that Benjen took the plea to heart. 

 

Edited April 17 by kissdbyfire

[Lissasalayaya]

It seems like Benjen is out gathering dragonglass. I mean, there's a mystery about a black night's watch cloak that was apparently filled with dragonglass and buried outside the Fist not long before Ghost leads Jon to it. That's a standing mystery all on its own. If you approach the situation trying primarily to answer that mystery instead of the Benjen ones, it's easy to see that Benjen is the strongest answer to it available. Gathering dragonglass for an upcoming war against the Others is a great answer to where Benjen went, what he's doing, who left the dragonglass for Jon, why, and why Ghost knew where to find it — because Ghost can sense/telepath with Benjen because Benjen is a Stark. 

[Lady Winter Rose]

Dragonglass was theorised to be planted by dead man. Remember, it was good cloak that was used and it only makes sense that someone left it because he wouldn't need it. You also wouldn't need to cloaks.

I'm not really a fan of this theory, we already got old zombie night watchman who escorts Sam and Bran in and out of Beyond the Wall. He is most likely candidate for that stash.

[Evolett]

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

All that said, we do get a little clue in ASoS and AWoIaF. In the former we learn that a black brother spoke during the feast at the Harrenhal tourney urging men to join, and in the latter we are told that Benjen took the plea to heart. 

I doubt this for two reasons:

a. Would Benjen really have needed a motivational speech by a brother of the NW at Harrenhal to convince him to join the Order? The Starks are friends to the Watch and have dealings with them, probably like no other House. Brothers come to Winterfell occasionally, deserters are beheaded on site with young Stark lads deemed old enough present to witness the act. The kids grow up knowing the Order's purpose and hear Old Nan's tales about past events as well. Benjen must have been reasonably well informed. I don't see him being moved to join because of a  plea heard at Harrenhal. 

b. The family had just lost it's head and heir apparent, leaving only Ned and Benjen to continue the line. Yes, Ned got married in Brandon's place but considering the real problem of failed pregnancies and losing children during early childhood, it would have been prudent to keep Benjen as a "spare" just in  case. Additionally, the Lord is required to call his banners and go to war on behalf of the king and the Starks are obliged to join the Watch against kings beyond the Wall who prove troublesome. All this increases the risk of an early demise and one cannot know when these events might take place.   
Why allow Benjen to join the Watch under these circumstances?

Ned opted to send Benjen to the Watch out of necessity, to keep him safe, imo, because he probably knew too much of what transpired at Harrenhal and may even have been involved in some way. According to Meera's story, he did offer to find some armour and a horse for the little crannogman. Perhaps he even painted the shield, and he must have been aware of the identity of the KotlT. 

 

22 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think he is either in the Far North or Skagos, doing something important for the Nights Watch.  I expect we will meet up with him in the next book.

and

12 hours ago, Lissasalayaya said:

It seems like Benjen is out gathering dragonglass. I mean, there's a mystery about a black night's watch cloak that was apparently filled with dragonglass and buried outside the Fist not long before Ghost leads Jon to it. That's a standing mystery all on its own. If you approach the situation trying primarily to answer that mystery instead of the Benjen ones, it's easy to see that Benjen is the strongest answer to it available.

This is all very vague. Benjen has been missing for a couple of years. If he decided to go on some kind of private mission for the Watch, surely he would have made an effort to contact CB, show some sign of life by now? He must know that the LC would send men out looking for him and how that would unnecessarily put his brothers at great risk - he himself was out looking for the missing Waymar. 

On the subject of dragonglass. Gathering dragonglass seems to be a domain of the CotF, up North at least. We know they gifted dragonglass to the Watch yearly in times past. Dragonglass is of volcanic origin and occurs in the vicinity of volcanos. Is there a volcano up North that Benjen could access to mine dragonglass? Does he have the equipment for it? Where the CotF get theirs from has not been revealed but we do know that Leaf roamed the 7K for years - enough time to visit locations, even Dragonstone, to acquire it. 

The black cloak is also always a point of focus but who says it's Benjen's cloak? It could have been taken off any fallen brother or may even have once belonged to Bloodraven. Where did the horn come from? It's far more likely the cache of dragonglass was placed there by the CotF and that they or BR guided Ghost to the location. Again, if Benjen had gone through the trouble of procuring all these items and burying them at a secret location, why not include a message for the LC and his brothers? It was well hidden afterall.

 

22 hours ago, Nevets said:

So, he manipulated Jon by making arguments against joining and suggesting Jon wait a few years, after he has experienced more of life? 

It is noteworthy that he first tells Jon the Watch could use a man like him and then does his best to disuade him after Jon eagerly jumps at the idea. Rather than reverse psychology, Benjen may have been expressing his feelings, his regrets, his lost chance at a regular life. 

Quote

“You are a boy of fourteen,” Benjen said. “Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up.” “I don’t care about that!” Jon said hotly. “You might, if you knew what it meant,” Benjen said. “If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son.” Jon felt anger rise inside him. “I’m not your son!” Benjen Stark stood up. “More’s the pity.” He put a hand on Jon’s shoulder. “Come back to me after you’ve fathered a few bastards of your own, and we’ll see how you feel.”

 

 Benjen was probably Jon's age when he joined up. When he speaks of what it will cost Jon, he's speaking from experience and it seems heartfelt. Note how he calls Jon "son." It would not surprise me if he deep down he wishes he could have lived a different life, regardless of whether he opted to join the Watch himself or was sent by Ned on account of circumstances. He would feel even more so if the latter were the case - a choice he perhaps never would have made himself. 

 

So, no one has commented on the 4 points  I make in the OP yet. As stated above, those points were not part of the Video, rather a result of my digging through the text. Could these clues be hinting at a desertion on Benjen's part?

Edited April 18 by Evolett

[Lissasalayaya]

42 minutes ago, Evolett said:

The black cloak is also always a point of focus but who says it's Benjen's cloak? It could have been taken off any fallen brother or may even have once belonged to Bloodraven. Where did the horn come from? It's far more likely the cache of dragonglass was placed there by the CotF and that they or BR guided Ghost to the location. Again, if Benjen had gone through the trouble of procuring all these items and burying them at a secret location, why not include a message for the LC and his brothers? It was well hidden afterall.

You've written off the possibility that Benjen doesn't want to be found. Benjen wanting to be found is an idea that's plenty viable itself, but so is that one, and we know little enough about what's up with Benjen that it seems a great mistake to write it off. If I remember correctly, Jon notes that the cloak of dragonglass could not have been buried there for long. That detail alone works strongly as an indication that whoever buried it there did not want to deliver it in person, perhaps because they're trying not to frighten the humans with their tree elf cat appearance, but also perhaps because they did not want to be found. No elf required. 

Not to dismiss the children of the forest. The information about COTF having dragonglass and sometimes trading it with humans might exist specifically to be a clue that Benjen is out gathering dragonglass. Because maybe trading with the COTF is one of the ways Benjen gathered it. I don't know of any volcanoes north of the Wall, anyway. 

Another assumption you appear to carry in your Benjen investigation is that Benjen is acting under command of Castle Black, the Night's Watch, and/or the Lord Commander. A viable possibility is that Benjen has gone rogue. Getting diverted or lost during a search for Waymar Royce would make a great cover story for something else Benjen thinks he needs to do, such as but not limited to a dragonglass hunt. 

[Evolett]

12 minutes ago, Lissasalayaya said:

The information about COTF having dragonglass and sometimes trading it with humans might exist specifically to be a clue that Benjen is out gathering dragonglass. Because maybe trading with the COTF is one of the ways Benjen gathered it. I don't know of any volcanoes north of the Wall, anyway. 

Another assumption you appear to carry in your Benjen investigation is that Benjen is acting under command of Castle Black, the Night's Watch, and/or the Lord Commander.

Well, originally, Benjen and his troupe were sent out by the LC to look for Waymar Royce so that's not an assumption. It's also stated that Benjen knew the haunted forest better than anyone in the Watch, suggesting also that he was well acquainted with the terrain North of the Wall in general. Mormont had every confindence in Benjen, he could be relied upon:

Quote

“If Ben Stark had come under wildling attack a half-day’s ride from Castle Black, he would have returned for more men, chased the killers through all seven hells and brought me back their heads.”

 

 

For him to "go rogue" on some kind of private mission seems atypical. Additionally, some in the Watch had already suspected the return of the Others:

Quote

“The cold winds are rising. Mormont feared as much. Benjen Stark felt it as well.

So, regarding the dragonglass or any activity related to gathering information about the Others, why would Benjen have to go about this business without telling his LC about it? 

 

I think there are 3 possibilities:

- dead
- captured with no way of contacting the outside world
- deserted

[Lissasalayaya]

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

...

The range of plausibility for the Benjen set of mysteries won't shrink because you call it small. Here are some of the plausible scenarios you've once again haphazardly written off simply because you didn't make a real effort to imagine them. 

Quote

Well, originally, Benjen and his troupe were sent out by the LC to look for Waymar Royce so that's not an assumption.

It is an assumption regarding a dragonglass hunt if

• Lord Commander did not tell Benjen to hunt dragonglass,
• or if Lord Commander told Benjen specifically not to hunt dragonglass. 
• or if Benjen kept the dragonglass information to himself

Quote

It's also stated that Benjen knew the haunted forest better than anyone in the Watch, suggesting also that he was well acquainted with the terrain North of the Wall in general. Mormont had every confindence in Benjen, he could be relied upon:

Alternatively, it might fairly be said that Mormont had little or no choice in sending Benjen, because Benjen was his best option. In that interpretation, it isn't as much Mormont relying on Benjen's loyalty as it is Benjen relying on Mormont's desperation. Benjen may have known that he was Mormont's best option for a solo search and rescue mission. Additionally, if dragonglass is desperately needed in order to protect the realms of men and Benjen knows it, Benjen might have felt the need to disobey Mormont if Mormont could not be convinced of dragonglass's importance, the Others' existence, or any other variable requisite to a dragonglass hunt motivation. 

Quote

For him to "go rogue" on some kind of private mission seems atypical.

And of course atypical things never happen. 

Quote

Additionally, some in the Watch had already suspected the return of the Others:

Yet until Samwell, nobody in the Night's Watch knew that dragonglass kills wights. To approve a dragonglass hunt you would have to know and believe both things, not just one. 

 

Edited April 18 by Lissasalayaya

[kissdbyfire]

12 hours ago, Evolett said:

I doubt this for two reasons:

a. Would Benjen really have needed a motivational speech by a brother of the NW at Harrenhal to convince him to join the Order? The Starks are friends to the Watch and have dealings with them, probably like no other House. Brothers come to Winterfell occasionally, deserters are beheaded on site with young Stark lads deemed old enough present to witness the act. The kids grow up knowing the Order's purpose and hear Old Nan's tales about past events as well. Benjen must have been reasonably well informed. I don't see him being moved to join because of a  plea heard at Harrenhal. 
 

 

Benjen was ~ 13/14 years old at the time of the Harrenhal tourney. It is entirely possible that a good speaker with stirring rhetoric about a noble cause yadda yadda yadda could very well impress a boy of 13 to the point that he thinks then that it is a noble and worthy cause. Now, it’s not said anywhere that he decided then and there he was going to join, only that the recruiter made a positive impression on him. And then later, given things he might have known or actions he might have taken and seeing how it all turned out, including but not limited to the deaths of Rickard and Brandon… well, I think it makes perfect sense that he might see joining as a form of deserved exile while also thinking that at least it’s a worthy cause.

12 hours ago, Evolett said:

b. The family had just lost it's head and heir apparent, leaving only Ned and Benjen to continue the line. Yes, Ned got married in Brandon's place but considering the real problem of failed pregnancies and losing children during early childhood, it would have been prudent to keep Benjen as a "spare" just in  case. Additionally, the Lord is required to call his banners and go to war on behalf of the king and the Starks are obliged to join the Watch against kings beyond the Wall who prove troublesome. All this increases the risk of an early demise and one cannot know when these events might take place.   
Why allow Benjen to join the Watch under these circumstances?

Ned opted to send Benjen to the Watch out of necessity, to keep him safe, imo, because he probably knew too much of what transpired at Harrenhal and may even have been involved in some way. According to Meera's story, he did offer to find some armour and a horse for the little crannogman. Perhaps he even painted the shield, and he must have been aware of the identity of the KotlT. 

I’d be surprised if Ned had sent him and Martin never included a single line pointing to that. If we look at Benjen’s convo with Jon during the feast at Winterfell, the strong impression there is that he decided to join, not that Ned made him join.  
Also, yes, their father and older brother had died, but Ned came home married and with two sons or an heir and a spare. 
And Benjen could have been the KotLT for all I know. In fact, other than Lyanna he is the only other credible possibility. 

[kissdbyfire]

Also, the notion that Benjen resented Ned is ludicrous, there’s zero evidence for it. And even worse is the idea that Benjen manipulated Jon into joining to spite Ned. This is classic order of the green hand stuff. 

[Mithras]

Quote

 

The raven gave a cackling scream, but the Old Bear smiled through the grey of his beard. "This many men and horses leave a trail even Aemon could follow. On this hill, our fires ought to be visible as far off as the foothills of the Frostfangs. If Ben Stark is alive and free, he will come to us, I have no doubt."

"Yes," said Jon, "but . . . what if . . ."

". . . he's dead?" Mormont asked, not unkindly.

Jon nodded, reluctantly.

"Dead," the raven said. "Dead. Dead."

"He may come to us anyway," the Old Bear said. "As Othor did, and Jafer Flowers. I dread that as much as you, Jon, but we must admit the possibility."

"Dead," his raven cawed, ruffling its wings. Its voice grew louder and more shrill. "Dead."

 

I think Benjen was killed by the Others but the children prevented him from turning into a wight because Bran sayeth so.

Quote

 

The youngest of the black brothers shifted uncomfortably in his seat. "There's not a man on the Wall knows the haunted forest better than Benjen Stark. He'll find his way back."

"Well," said Yoren, "maybe he will and maybe he won't. Good men have gone into those woods before, and never come out."

All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!"

 

 

[Northern Sword]

16 hours ago, Evolett said:

b. The family had just lost it's head and heir apparent, leaving only Ned and Benjen to continue the line. Yes, Ned got married in Brandon's place but considering the real problem of failed pregnancies and losing children during early childhood, it would have been prudent to keep Benjen as a "spare" just in  case. Additionally, the Lord is required to call his banners and go to war on behalf of the king and the Starks are obliged to join the Watch against kings beyond the Wall who prove troublesome. All this increases the risk of an early demise and one cannot know when these events might take place.   
Why allow Benjen to join the Watch under these circumstances?

This has always been a question for me. Why, when it was down to Benjen and Ned. Would he go to the watch. Never made sense to me. Seems like there had to been a reason, other than him just wanting to join. 

Benjen as a deserter never crossed my mind. I suppose it is possible, but in my mind, unlikely. Unless he is under orders that we don't know about.

I assumed Benjen was either dead, killed by a WW. Or he was Cold hands, dead, but not dead. An instrument of the Old Gods. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Northern Sword said:

I assumed Benjen was either dead, killed by a WW. Or he was Cold hands, dead, but not dead. An instrument of the Old Gods. 

And we now know for a fact Benjen = Coldhands can be crossed off the list of options. 

I think he's dead. Not dead and buried though, but dead and... digested as @sweetsunray proposed a few years back. 

[Northern Sword]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

And we now know for a fact Benjen = Coldhands can be crossed off the list of options. 

I think he's dead. Not dead and buried though, but dead and... digested as @sweetsunray proposed a few years back. 

Forgive me, but do we actually know this ? or is this a theory ? I don't recall resolution on this one. Link?

[BlackLightning]

I'm beginning to think that Benjen did desert the NW but only in the sense that he has decided NOT to return to Castle Black after his ranging mission went sideways.

If Benjen is still alive (I don't think Martin would have him die "offscreen"), he's in the Lands of Always Winter or maybe in the Heart of Winter itself. Either he is being held captive, he has switched sides and is working with the Others or he is trying to negotiate with the Others on the behalf of the Seven Kingdoms.

I doubt Martin would have had Benjen die "offscreen" after all this time, but if Benjen is dead, Bran is going to have to find his body and learn what had happened to him. Or maybe Jon will run across Benjen (or his corpse) as Ghost and Bran finds out what happens.

Either way—dead or alive—I'm 100% sure that Benjen encountered the Others and that he had been sidetracked/delayed.

[BlackLightning]

6 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Forgive me, but do we actually know this ? or is this a theory ? I don't recall resolution on this one. Link?

When the show revealed that Coldhands was actually Benjen at the end of Season 6, Martin said that Benjen is not Coldhands and that the two are separate individuals. And based on what Martin was saying, Benjen is still alive.

[Northern Sword]

1 minute ago, BlackLightning said:

When the show revealed that Coldhands was actually Benjen at the end of Season 6, Martin said that Benjen is not Coldhands and that the two are separate individuals. And based on what Martin was saying, Benjen is still alive.

Damn, I did not know that... For Shame ! 

Thank you

[BlackLightning]

2 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Damn, I did not know that... For Shame ! 

Thank you

No problem at all

But I don't know if Benjen was still alive or if Martin was doing a bit of misdirection.

Basically the way that Martin was so insistent that "Coldhands is not Benjen" is very similar to how he reacted to how Sansa was a stand-in for both Jeyne Poole and Donella Hornwood in Winterfell."

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Northern Sword said:

Forgive me, but do we actually know this ? or is this a theory ? I don't recall resolution on this one. Link?

Yeah. Someone turned up a manuscript copy of ADwD after it had been pushed and it's full of handwritten notes by the editor and Martin. And there's a page where the editor, referring to Coldhands, asks if he is Benjen and Martin wrote in reply in all caps "NO".

ETA: clarification: I think someone went to some library or something and this manuscript copy was there and they took photos or something along those lines. I don’t remember all details, it was a long time ago. But you can find these photos online quite easily. 

Edited April 18 by kissdbyfire