Is Benjen Stark a deserter?

[Evolett]

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

It is entirely possible that a good speaker with stirring rhetoric about a noble cause yadda yadda yadda could very well impress a boy of 13 to the point that he thinks then that it is a noble and worthy cause. Now, it’s not said anywhere that he decided then and there he was going to join, only that the recruiter made a positive impression on him.

Yes it's possible the recruiter left a positive impression but this is not stated anywhere in Meera's KotLT story. Here's the passage mentioning the black brother who spoke:

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The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night’s Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. 

 

 

Regarding a possible succession crisis / lack of heirs, do you  mean Jon, the officially illegitimate son here? 

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Also, yes, their father and older brother had died, but Ned came home married and with two sons or an heir and a spare

We don't get Ned's feelings on the matter but though he prayed for Robb and Jon to grow up as brothers, there's no indication he regarded Jon as a spare. I think that so long as Robert lived, he was at a loss when it came to deciding Jon's future. Regardless, even if it was Benjen's own choice to join the Watch, he at that age would have required Ned's go ahead - we see this with Jon:

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“Take me with you when you go back to the Wall,” Jon said in a sudden rush. “Father will give me leave to go if you ask him, I know he will.”

The issue of two few heirs still stands for me, but I've already put forward my arguments above. I think there were more pressing reasons that led to Benjen having to join the Watch, whether he wanted to or not. That it wasn't his choice is also suggested by the way he calls Jon "son" and his lecture on what taking the oath would cost him. Most of this revolved around not having a family, not knowing a woman etc. It seems to me he has certain regrets there, wishing he could have lived a normal life with a family of his own.

 

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

I'm beginning to think that Benjen did desert the NW but only in the sense that he has decided NOT to return to Castle Black after his ranging mission went sideways.

If Benjen is still alive (I don't think Martin would have him die "offscreen"), he's in the Lands of Always Winter or maybe in the Heart of Winter itself. Either he is being held captive, he has switched sides and is working with the Others or he is trying to negotiate with the Others on the behalf of the Seven Kingdoms.

It's possible there are parallels between Benjen and Bloodraven in this regard. The NW never found out what became of their LC Rivers. We have no information on whether he joined the CotF willingly or was captured, forced or convinced to "wed the tree" and sworn to secrecy thereafter. The circumstances leading up to his disappearance (leaving a trail up to a certain point / brothers killed), do suggest an attack on the group took place. Aside from death, capture is thus a very likely option.

On the other hand, if actual desertion is an alternative, this would have been the perfect opportunity to abscond without even arousing suspicion. Jon's thoughts on what Ned might have done had Benjen been the deserter instead of Gared and the utterings of the raven during Mormont's lecture on desertion could be clues in this direction. But for all we know, Bran's outburst,   "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!" as posted by @Mithras above is the end to all speculation

 

[kissdbyfire]

 

6 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Yes it's possible the recruiter left a positive impression but this is not stated anywhere in Meera's KotLT story. Here's the passage mentioning the black brother who spoke:

Pasting from my first reply:

All that said, we do get a little clue in ASoS and AWoIaF. In the former we learn that a black brother spoke during the feast at the Harrenhal tourney urging men to join, and in the latter we are told that Benjen took the plea to heart. 

Bold + italics above = verbatim.

As to heirs, yes, Jon is a bastard. But if push comes to shove Ned would have done something about it if by that point he hadn't had more sons with Cat.

[Lissasalayaya]

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Also, the notion that Benjen resented Ned is ludicrous, there’s zero evidence for it.

If it weren't for some of Ned's actions and choices, Benjen would have married Catelyn and ruled Winterfell, and Ned would have taken the black. As to what those were, I leave you to your books. 

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And even worse is the idea that Benjen manipulated Jon into joining to spite Ned. This is classic order of the green hand stuff. 

What's the reputation of order of the green hand's stuff? I mean, in what way does the Benjen manipulated Jon theory go with their other stuff?

Edited April 19 by Lissasalayaya

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, Lissasalayaya said:

If it weren't for some of Ned's actions and choices, Benjen would have married Catelyn and ruled Winterfell, and Ned would have taken the black. As to what those were, I leave you to your books. 

 

Sure, if we were reading an altogether different story. 

13 minutes ago, Lissasalayaya said:

What's the reputation of order of the green hand's stuff? In what way does the Benjen manipulated Jon theory go with their other stuff?

I don't know about reputation, I know only my opinion and that is that their stuff is usually ridiculous tbh. Instead of finding possible clues to something and trying to work out a cogent theory, they seem to have ideas they find interesting and then try to shoehorn these ideas into the text. It obviously never fits, but I'm sure they have their share of fans.

[Lissasalayaya]

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Sure, if we were reading an altogether different story. 

Not to give away the kind of ending ASOIAF has in store, but we are reading altogether different stories. Many of the key passages of the story's cluster of central mysteries work akin to an optical illusion. Where the squares of a necker cube shift when looked at in a different way, so do shift the logics of passages like Barristan's "looked to me instead of Stark" and Ned's "children of her body."

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I don't know about reputation, I know only my opinion and that is that their stuff is usually ridiculous tbh. Instead of finding possible clues to something and trying to work out a cogent theory, they seem to have ideas they find interesting and then try to shoehorn these ideas into the text. It obviously never fits, but I'm sure they have their share of fans.

How much of their stuff have you watched or read?

I find their Catelyn takes pretty absurd. Almost any time they mention Catelyn it's a textbook study in motivated reasoning. Still, never is a strong word. 

[Aebram]

5 hours ago, Lissasalayaya said:

If it weren't for some of Ned's actions and choices, Benjen would have married Catelyn and ruled Winterfell, and Ned would have taken the black. As to what those were, I leave you to your books.

I've read all the books multiple times, and sorry, I really have no idea what you're referring to. Ben was younger than Ned. The only way Benjen could become lord of Winterfell would be if Ned died, or joined the Night's Watch himself. It seems unlikely that Benjen would resent Ned for not having done either of those things.

[Lissasalayaya]

22 minutes ago, Aebram said:

I've read all the books multiple times, and sorry, I really have no idea what you're referring to. Ben was younger than Ned. The only way Benjen could become lord of Winterfell would be if Ned died, or joined the Night's Watch himself. It seems unlikely that Benjen would resent Ned for not having done either of those things.

I don't think Benjen resents Ned, I was only suggesting that Benjen has plenty of reason to if he were a lesser man. Benjen has his own guilty conscience to answer to. Taking the black is part of how he's doing that. 

You've got me beat. I've only read the books all the way through one time. But in the depths of depression I needed something to do, so I studied the story rigorously for eight or nine years, and then in 2022 managed to work out how most of the big mysteries resolve. Benjen's mysteries revolve around Jon Snow's parentage mystery for the most part. Harrenhal mystery to good extent. 

 

[Sandy Clegg]

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I know only my opinion and that is that their stuff is usually ridiculous tbh. Instead of finding possible clues to something and trying to work out a cogent theory, they seem to have ideas they find interesting and then try to shoehorn these ideas into the text

I would agree, but even a stopped clock is accurate twice a day. I think the idea is at least worth discussing on is own merits. Benjen is a fairly enigmatic figure in the story - GRRM might have a heel turn in store for him. That said, there isn't much to go on here yet.

[LynnS]

On 4/17/2024 at 11:05 PM, Evolett said:

I think there are 3 possibilities:

- dead
- captured with no way of contacting the outside world
- deserted

Great OP.  I enjoyed reading it.  I'd add one more possibility - agent for Bloodraven.  In other words, he has been in contact with BR and is acting on his behalf.  In which case, I would place him south of the Wall.

On 4/16/2024 at 8:18 PM, Evolett said:

While Mormont is speaking, the raven is busy helping itself to an egg:

• The raven was pecking at an egg, breaking the shell. Pushing his beak through the hole, he pulled out morsels of white and yoke.
• Mormont is also having eggs for breakfast, crushing his in his fist:

Frowning, Mormont took his last egg and squeezed it in his fist until the shell crunched.

This is something of a puzzle to me as well.  It reminds me of Bran:

A Clash of Kings - Bran II

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That night Bran prayed to his father's gods for dreamless sleep. If the gods heard, they mocked his hopes, for the nightmare they sent was worse than any wolf dream.

 

"Fly or die!" cried the three-eyed crow as it pecked at him. He wept and pleaded but the crow had no pity. It put out his left eye and then his right, and when he was blind in the dark it pecked at his brow, driving its terrible sharp beak deep into his skull. He screamed until he was certain his lungs must burst. The pain was an axe splitting his head apart, but when the crow wrenched out its beak all slimy with bits of bone and brain, Bran could see again. What he saw made him gasp in fear. He was clinging to a tower miles high, and his fingers were slipping, nails scrabbling at the stone, his legs dragging him down, stupid useless dead legs. "Help me!" he cried. A golden man appeared in the sky above him and pulled him up. "The things I do for love," he murmured softly as he tossed him out kicking into empty air.

 

 

[Sandy Clegg]

45 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Great OP.  I enjoyed reading it.  I'd add one more possibility - agent for Bloodraven.  In other words, he has been in contact with BR and is acting on his behalf.  In which case, I would place him south of the Wall.

This is something of a puzzle to me as well.  It reminds me of Bran:

A Clash of Kings - Bran II

 

This is an egg-cellent catch (I regret nothing!)  

The 3-eyed raven pecking through skull as a metaphor of releasing Bran's 'third eye' fits perfectly the image of the raven pecking at the egg. Not sure this has much to do with Benjen specifically, but it's probably a deliberate parallel by George.

Just a thought, but perhaps the power dynamic is important here? The raven 'belongs' to the Old Bear, so is therefore subservient. So if this raven is a Bloodraven parallel, might he be 'in service' to an even higher power? George has funny ways of using his imagery.

Edited April 19 by Sandy Clegg

[Lady Winter Rose]

I do agree its possible Benjen deserted, but do you all forget he promised Jon he would be back on Wall by Jon's 15th birthday? So, I don't think he deserted, because he had reason to come back. Plus, I think it was implied Caster knew what happened to Benjen, just didn't want to admit to NW when they came. Also Gilly said there were not many boys born in Caster's Keep lately.

I think Benjen came to Caster's farmstead when there were Others/WW presents and Others took Benjen and his crew. They needed boys, but Benjen was good enough. We already have two od them known dead.

[sifth]

Honestly the longer Benjen stays missing, the longer I wonder if George has any idea what to do with him. In fact he feels less like a character and more like a plot device. He's only appeared in the flesh in about 2 or 3 chapters at most.

[Sandy Clegg]

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

it pecked at his brow, driving its terrible sharp beak deep into his skull. He screamed until he was certain his lungs must burst.

As soon as Bran wakes up, the very next page is a Tyrion chapter, which starts by comparing Pycelle's head to an egg.

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"Commendable," Tyrion admitted, breaking a large brown egg that reminded him unduly of the Grand Maester's bald spotted head. "I take a different view. If there is food I eat it, in case there is none on the morrow."

This just after Pycelle complains of not sleeping as he did whe the was younger. George definitely likes to use the chapter transitions to draw parallels.

[LynnS]

27 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

This just after Pycelle complains of not sleeping as he did whe the was younger. George definitely likes to use the chapter transitions to draw parallels.

I'm thinking in Bran's case, it is to make a connection between Mormont's raven, the three-eyed crow and Bloodraven.  So if you believe that Bloodraven is the 3EC; it's not a stretch to surmise that he is keeping tabs on Mormont and the Night Watch as that strange bird.  So then, why is Bloodraven drawing attention to Ben Jen?   What results is the great ranging in search of Benjen and significantly, finding the horn filled with obsidian, wrapped up in a ranger's cloak.  I think Benjen is too useful to just disappear in the woods.  

[Evolett]

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is something of a puzzle to me as well.  It reminds me of Bran:

A Clash of Kings - Bran II

Quote

 

That night Bran prayed to his father's gods for dreamless sleep. If the gods heard, they mocked his hopes, for the nightmare they sent was worse than any wolf dream.

 

"Fly or die!" cried the three-eyed crow as it pecked at him. He wept and pleaded but the crow had no pity. It put out his left eye and then his right, and when he was blind in the dark it pecked at his brow, driving its terrible sharp beak deep into his skull. He screamed until he was certain his lungs must burst. The pain was an axe splitting his head apart, but when the crow wrenched out its beak all slimy with bits of bone and brain, Bran could see again.

Great connection . Those eggs did remind me of something, especially the raven dribbling egg yolk but I couldn't place it. Sounds very 3-eyed-crow.  

 

[trollrrmartin]

Is Bloodraven a deserter?

[Prince of the North]

4 hours ago, trollrrmartin said:

Is Bloodraven a deserter?

Yes and no.  As always, it depends on one's perspective/opinion.  That Martin's a crafty one

[Alester Florent]

The real Benjen died during the Rebellion after choking on a sausage. Arthur Dayne assumed his identity and joined the Watch under his name. Then he recruited Jon to keep an eye on him. But when he heard Dany was getting married he decided he'd better go and check that out. On the way, he adopted a new disguise and had got fully into character by the time he got there, abandoning his former identities and becoming Strong Belwas.

[The Gizzard of Oz]

It's a Ben and Jennifer mystery.  How much would you bet on the survival of a lone ranger?  Weymar had no chance and it was three rangers.

[Aerodimas]

There is also the posibility that Benjen died just as Jon dreamed. He kinda had a vision the day his unbcle left.