FOOTBALL!

[Padraig]

[quote name='Loras Bernadotte-LÃ¥ngstrum' post='1391645' date='Jun 10 2008, 08.33']What I do know is that we are going to be one of the few, if not the only after what we have seen so far, with a clear intention to take control of the ball, dictate tempo and at least try to play some decent football.[/quote]
That's a bit harsh on the other teams that have played. Spain might do it better than the others but Germany, Portugal and the Dutch all have dictated tempo and played some decent football.

Interesting that Fabregas is dropped. The [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/jun/10/euro2008.euro2008groupd"]Guardian[/url] had a decent article about it. Spain have gone back to 2 man attack, rather than fit him into the lineout.

[quote]Toni certainly doesn't play alone up front for Bayern, his partner there is Klose who can be very unselfish for a striker.[/quote]
Right. And you are right about Di Natale. He was the best of the Italians when playing but he can't offer Toni what an actual striking partner can. Too remote.

Good post Mathis. I wonder was Dommenach that worried about losing, which would be sad.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Loras Bernadotte-LÃ¥ngstrum']So Spain today... I don't know what we are going to do...[/quote]

I have you pencilled in for a goalless draw, in case you're interested.:P

I'm only going to be able to watch the first half of the first game today as some stupid friend of mine has decided that his birthday needs to be celebrated even though it collides with the Euro.

[mormont]

[quote name='Mathis' post='1391256' date='Jun 10 2008, 02.35']Pirlo might just be the best passer of the ball I have ever seen. He seems to caress it.[/quote]

He is a joy to watch, isn't he? The way he plays defensively is terrific too: he uses his brain rather than his elbows. Reads the game beautifully. Shame the rest of the Italian midfield weren't on his wavelength last night: but they will be. Probably in the next game. Italy are not out of this by a long chalk - the excellent Dutch performance last night (and the palpable disinterest of the Italian players once it was clear the points were out of sight) should not deceive anyone into thinking Italy are pushovers. I still favour them to get out of the group.

[quote]I don't speak any languages but English so I don't know the standard of commentary in other countries but surely it can't be worse than the UK. Is there a more inept analyst than David Pleat? Is there a more irritating commentator that Clive Tyldesly or John Motson or Mark Lawrenson? If only Martin Tyler and Andy Gray could be there. Seriously, if David Pleat calls Camoranesi 'Caramonesi' one more time...[/quote]

Tyler and Gray are pretty poor too. They only look good next to the execrable Pleat, Moston et al.

***Rant time***

Tyldesly is by far the worst offender. I don't know where he got the idea that he knows the first thing about football, but despite the fact that he very obviously doesn't, he seems to consider himself some sort of expert. Clive, you are not an expert: you are an annoying idiot. You do not seem to have ever actually played a game of football. You constantly call the game wrong and then insist, [i]often despite clear visual evidence[/i], that your call was what actually happened. 'Oh, I think there was a deflection there!' [clear shot of the ball going nowhere near any players] 'Yes, I think there was just the slightest of touches!' NO, THERE WASN'T! Do you think we're all blind, or is it that you think we're all stupid?

It's hard to decide between that and his irritating (and baffling) smugness as to which is the biggest single reason I would like to smack him in the mouth. I mean, did you hear him last night? 'These Milan player learned their trade under a man called Ancelloti, and another who goes by the name of Fabio Cappello'. Yes, Clive, he 'goes by' that name [i]because it is his name[/i]. He's not Batman. It's not an alter ego. What's wrong with saying 'under Fabio Cappello'? What the fuck are you on?

That man has ruined many a match for me with his inane wittering, his self-congratulatory explanations of the most basic facts of the game as if they were a secret known only to football insiders like himself, his wrong calls, and his general all-round crapness. And the worst part is that Pleat and his other co-commentators let him get away with this rubbish.

[koudoulis]

nice game between holland and italy. i am glad it was the first game i chose to watch. i am also of the opinion that it was a much closer call than what the score demonstrates.Holland was definetely the better side but i feel that it was the turn of fate that allowed them to win in that fashion. they would win either way but you always need luck to score three goals against Italy.
about the first goal, i dont really care=i like dodgy referee calls in major tournaments, but i think it should have been anulled and screw the paragraph 763894679/876489 in the booklet. panucci wasnt in the game . he couldnt defend against RvN and so he should be considered out. i have a different question, if the referre had given an offside who would have complained? anyway even the italians didnt complain so good for them.
serious warning: sweden-greece tonight is propably going to be unwatcable for all not immediately interested viewers. if you re gonna watch one match today go for spain-russia. its a shame that russia hasnt both arshavin and progremniak (sp?) it would be a grand match if those two played. however do not underestimate russia , i think they are a very strong team (and they have simply the best coach there is...)


eta: oh oh i forgot to add the pirlo-love. omg last night at some point i thought that if he was alone in the pitch i d still watch ... he flows so gracefully and he never makes any excess moves. i hate excess moves and people who dribble themselves. pirlo is the opposite. i only wished he scored that freekick. not the one van der saar saved, the one that went slightly off and everybody watched motionless..
eta2:schneider is pretty cool too:D

[The Inquisitor]

Yes, Pirlo is amazing... I fully agree.

When Italy were losing 3-0 and there were still 15 minutes left to play, Pirlo received a ball in the right side of the midfield waited for someone to offer a move that did not come, turned around as he was pressured by 2 dutchmen and with his left and weaker foot changed the direction of the play and passed a long ball to Grosso in the left wing. I swear to you I thought "This is what an excellent player does... they ought to tape this and show it to every child playing football: you've got to use your head and its mandatory to be able to use both feet"

Fantastic stuff. I love Andrea Pirlo.

[cteresa]

Niamh, great link thank you :)

Count me on the Pirlo love. last autumn a Milan historical player was saying he thought Kaká was not the best player in Milan ( not counting Ronaldo and Maldini and their histories) and you can sort of see his point. And Pirlo can be amazing for club and country.

Luca Toni, his problem last night was *luck*. reminded me of Nuno Gomes against Turkey ( at least two balls to the bar), sometimes everything is slightly off, sometimes everything works out. The first game of a tournament is IMO a better place to have a off-day than the last ;) But I think that is one advantage Portugal has, we have no Luca Toni but Nuno is lots better at passing and feinting and working to help others score, if your attack is changeable and adaptable maybe it´s not so predictable and it does not depend just on *strikers*, somebody´s off day is covered by something having a great day ( Pepe! he actually scored two you know. Not bad for a central defender :P)

Loras, as they say "bitch please" . Wait till they play to brag about "decent" football ( pretty rude to Portugal, Germany and specially Holland no?) and tempo. and if by tempo you mean passing the ball horizontally 100 times around the halfway line, the rest of the world does not particularly want to do it. or see it.

About Fabregas to Torres, word has been Fabregas won´t start - maybe the same problem Quaresma has with Portugal. Very great genius players, but their position is sort of covered by better or steadier players. Maybe even Torres won´t start, depends, but so far Villa´s record with Spain is far more impressive. Maybe playing abroad ( no matter the club) can lower down a player´s chances to play for their country. Though truly Marcos Senna is more useful and Villa proved himself more.

[The Inquisitor]

[quote name='cteresa' post='1391762' date='Jun 10 2008, 12.26']Count me on the Pirlo love. last autumn a Milan historical player was saying he thought Kaká was not the best player in Milan ( not counting Ronaldo and Maldini and their histories) and you can sort of see his point. And Pirlo can be amazing for club and country.[/quote]

That's what I've been saying since ever about Deco in Barça, Scholes in Man Utd, Pirlo in Milan, and Redondo in Madrid years ago. ;)


[quote]Loras, as they say "bitch please" . Wait till they play to brag about "decent" football ( pretty rude to Portugal, Germany and specially Holland no?) and tempo. and if by tempo you mean passing the ball horizontally 100 times around the halfway line, the rest of the world does not particularly want to do it. or see it.[/quote]

No, that's not what I was saying... Portugal and Holland played some excellent football I agree, but you can't say they held the ball and dominated the game, or at least that was the plan they had in mind for the game. Turkey and Italy had the ball when they were down, and both Portugal and Holland were content to let them do, sit back and strike them down in the counter-attack. Sneijder's and Gio's goals came from counterattacks, and Meirelles's one too. And that's fantastic footie in my book, because given the quality of both sides, they are going to kill you with open spaces... as they did.

What I am saying is that Spain's plan is to take hold of the ball, touch it, and dictate their own tempo with the ball in their possesion and play some decent football. As in Spain's plan is to have the ball and play offense most of the time and defend by keeping possesion; As in Spain will not play to sit back and wait for the rivals to take the weight of the game and kill them off when they find open spaces behind their backs; and As in the rest is not "indecent" football at all... ;)

Problem is that, precisely, in the last WC against France we had the ball all match, moved it around... but did nothing at all. Had no depth, no verticallity and did not shoot at all. And France just killed us off when we had to push with everything we had. It was far from decent, but at least the plan was to impose our possesion. It didn't work.


[quote]About Fabregas to Torres, word has been Fabregas won´t start - maybe the same problem Quaresma has with Portugal. Very great genius players, but their position is sort of covered by better or steadier players. Maybe even Torres won´t start, depends, but so far Villa´s record with Spain is far more impressive. Maybe playing abroad ( no matter the club) can lower down a player´s chances to play for their country. Though truly Marcos Senna is more useful and Villa proved himself more.[/quote]

Yeah I know... if he wants to be in the first XI he has to take down Xavi. Problem is, I like Xavi a lot... and Aragonés does too.

No, Torres is the starting striker... if that idiot we have for a manager switches to a single forward XI, Villa will be benched. In fairness, the boy deserves it. He's had an excellent season.

[Black Wizard]

Where is Francesco Totti?

[Padraig]

[quote]Turkey and Italy had the ball when they were down, and both Portugal and Holland were content to let them do, sit back and strike them down in the counter-attack. Sneijder's and Gio's goals came from counterattacks, and Meirelles's one too.[/quote]
I guarantee if Spain go 2-0 (or more) up in any game they wouldn't still be dictating the pace of the game. I'd be very impressed if they did but it just doesn't happen anymore against competitive teams. IMO, Holland were dominating the Italians up to their 2nd goal (the possession stats will prove that for the 1st half). I was actually a little dissappointed that they let Italy have a lot more of the ball in the 2nd half (at least until the 3rd goal) but teams are inclined to protect what they have when they go 2-0 (or even 1-0) up. And at least the Dutch still looked to attack when they did get the ball.

[cteresa]

[quote name='Loras Bernadotte-Långstrum' post='1391774' date='Jun 10 2008, 11.50']That's what I've been saying since ever about Deco in Barça, Scholes in Man Utd, Pirlo in Milan, and Redondo in Madrid years ago. ;)[/quote]

arguably Deco was robbed of an individual award in 2004, he was amazing ( btw on yesterday´s press conference he himself was saying he was not at his best after minute 60 and that he needed the "game rythm" which he is now picking up. we knew it :) )

Scholes´ not playing for England anymore makes him harder to remember to the rest of us ( I remember this goal of his in euro 2000, grrrrr). Redondo I don´t remember well enough, sorry :(

[quote name='Loras Bernadotte-LÃ¥ngstrum' post='1391774' date='Jun 10 2008, 11.50']No, that's not what I was saying... Portugal and Holland played some excellent football I agree, but you can't say they held the ball and dominated the game, or at least that was the plan they had in mind for the game. Turkey and Italy had the ball when they were down, and both Portugal and Holland were content to let them do, sit back and strike them down in the counter-attack.[/quote]

Something I think interesting is that so far, this tournament Portugal and Holland and probably Germany as well, are really very good at being very fast. Fit and with very fast players.

Somebody was saying that Bosingwa ( on the right) was under orders to show his speed at the beginning in order to make the turks nervous, on the other side (sort of) Cristiano Ronaldo a bit the same, Bosingwa and Cristiano Ronaldo were juicy baits, either the turks took care to block them (and opened space in center. which happened particularly in Pepe s legal goal) or gave them freedom to get the ball very fast to someplace very dangerous (which sort of happened with the second legal goal, Cristiano Ronaldo moving the ball perfectly to Moutinho in a crucially dangerous position to Meireles who nobody was paying attention to).

sorry for the rambling on, I am just philosophically interested on this. modern football is different, it´s changing and speed seems to be the extra killer brought on to annull new-catenaccio the extra-tactical extra-strategic type of play. well first round is still not yet completed, so too early to make generalizations.


[quote name='Loras Bernadotte-LÃ¥ngstrum' post='1391774' date='Jun 10 2008, 11.50']What I am saying is that Spain's plan is to take hold of the ball, touch it, and dictate their own tempo with the ball in their possesion and play some decent football. As in Spain's plan is to have the ball and play offense most of the time and defend by keeping possesion; As in Spain will not play to sit back and wait for the rivals to take the weight of the game and kill them off when they find open spaces behind their backs; and As in the rest is not "indecent" football at all... ;)[/quote]

Tiki-taka. I am not as convinced as you all are about it being "decent" or even that effective. A 100 horizontal passes in the halfway line might be possession and controlling "tempo" but are not really the point of football, get some verticality in there. Tiki-taka (is that how it is spelled? if not sorry ) can make a person long for the other guys to teach you what long ball is, just so you learn ;)

[quote name='Loras Bernadotte-LÃ¥ngstrum' post='1391774' date='Jun 10 2008, 11.50']Problem is that, precisely, in the last WC against France we had the ball all match, moved it around... but did nothing at all. Had no depth, no verticallity and did not shoot at all. And France just killed us off when we had to push with everything we had. It was far from decent, but at least the plan was to impose our possesion. It didn't work.[/quote]

Verticality - I think spanish is the language which has that concept clearer ( we call it "direct" mostly but horizontal and vertical are neat so-visual terms). Brazil always has it for some reason, sometimes it looks like Spain is trying but not quite getting that. I don´t know why - fast wingers would help ( not that Brazil has those ;)). Brazil can counter attack very neatly BTW like in the Copa America final ;)

About Torres, we will see, he is still quite young (24?). But going by effectiveness, Villa seems more dangerous. But the two combined sounds like a great combo.

[quote name='Loras Bernadotte-Långstrum' post='1391774' date='Jun 10 2008, 11.50']Yeah I know... if he wants to be in the first XI he has to take down Xavi. Problem is, I like Xavi a lot... and Aragonés does too.[/quote]
Yep. and Xavi plays in Spain meaning spanish fans will see him play more than Fabregas. if Fabregas plays and plays badly while Xavi is benched the outcry will probably be far worse than if it was the other way around.

Regarding France, I did not see it (according to reports, smart of me, no? ), the lineups are interesting. Either Domenech is using astronomy ( though gossipmongers have it the real reason Pires did not get called for 2006 was being a former boyfriend of current Mme Domenech) again or he is trying to do that transition of the generations thing and not really working. Benching Thierry Henry to bring Benzema ( and then Gomis in), playing Nasri ( who for what I saw this season for OM, he is still a baby and very far from stepping into ruling french midfield...). And he plays Thuram. I truly don´t get it.

[Padraig]

Just to add. I expect Spain to waltz through this group. They will probably get unstuck in the quarter finals. :P My only concern is that they don't have wingers, I liked how they always offered Spain another line of attack. Although i'm glad that they aren't playing Greece first. Greece could stifle the life out of them (like Romania did to France yesterday). And Aragones would probably panic if they get a bad result.

Its an interesting choice. 5 in midfield with Fabregas or 4 in midfield without him (but with Villa and Torres). I imagine we'll see Fabregas sometime during the game. He didn't start in the WC either but played his way onto the starting line up.

I do agree that Italy shouldn't be discounted yet but Donadoni better not try to same line out again. At least 3 changes are required.

Oh and i'd prefer Gomes to Toni too. :)

Edited to add: While Henry is fit again, he hadn't trained in 4 days, so it was risky to throw him into the starting line up. They'll need him for more important games.

[The Man Who]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1391788' date='Jun 10 2008, 13.11']Where is Francesco Totti?[/quote]

Retired from international football.

I'm really disappointed that Arshavin is suspended for the first two games of the tournament and Pogrebnyak (this is the correct spelling) is out for the whole thing. While I don't like Zenit's fans I do like their players and I'm backing Russia to go far. I'm hoping for the first major upset of the tournament against Spain today.

As for Ruud's goal - I thought at the time it was onside due to Panucci and noone has been able to convince me otherwise least of all my friends I was watching the match with. If Panucci had decided to get up and come back on the pitch I'm pretty sure he would have reentered where he left from rather than reentering from halfway as an inactive player.

[The Inquisitor]

[quote name='cteresa' post='1391794' date='Jun 10 2008, 13.24']Tiki-taka. I am not as convinced as you all are about it being "decent" or even that effective. A 100 horizontal passes in the halfway line might be possession and controlling "tempo" but are not really the point of football, get some verticality in there. Tiki-taka (is that how it is spelled? if not sorry ) can make a person long for the other guys to teach you what long ball is, just so you learn ;)


Verticality - I think spanish is the language which has that concept clearer ( we call it "direct" mostly but horizontal and vertical are neat so-visual terms). Brazil always has it for some reason, sometimes it looks like Spain is trying but not quite getting that. I don´t know why - fast wingers would help ( not that Brazil has those ;) ). Brazil can counter attack very neatly BTW like in the Copa America final ;)[/quote]

Truthfully and in honesty, I think we have the best players in the world to play the kind of football we want. That is, keeping the ball and having possesion. I mean, people like Xavi, Fabregas, Silva, Iniesta, Xabi Alonso etc can have the ball in their feet the 90 minutes if need be. That is, that's perhaps our only comparative advantage... so that's what we have to exploit. We all prefer playing deep with wingers ("extremos" for us both ;)), opening spaces and leading the ball; but sometimes your style is imposed by the players you have and not the other way round. We arguably have 4 top level central midfielders that are smallish, versatile, fast, intelligent and have a wondrous technique.... by all means, exploit that weapon you have!

Problem is, everyone knows that... so they are going to play with 10 guys behind the ball. That's the reason why I beleive we have difficulties overcoming ultra defensive teams that prefer to lock themselves up and we perform better against teams that do want to play football.

So if Hiddink decides to lock himself up, expect a draw or a 1-0 victory for Spain. If they decide to be valiant, expect a large result (remember Ukraine last WC?)

Yeah, tiki-taka... I hate that term. It was invented by the press but it defines very well what it is we want to play to: keep the ball and move, and play possesion game for lack of something better.

[niamh]

I see what they mean by tic-tac. I also see how it could get annoying to watch.


Anyway, so far, a nice fast game and a right atmosphere.

[niamh]

Terrific!!!!!

Such BAD luck Russia!

[squiddly]

Scoring a minute after Russia hit the crossbar is just mean.

[The Inquisitor]

We're not imposing our game.

But we are winning comfortably. I'll take that anytime though... ;)

By the way, the less sharp Spaniard has been Iniesta... but that dribble and pass to set up Villa was sheer magic.

Perhaps its time for Fabregas to enter the fray.

By the way, who scored the first goal? Was it Fernando Villa or David Torres? Torres was great there... Excellent stuff.

[Gorn]

Am I the only one who hates the helicopter camera? It's so pointless.

[niamh]

Now that you mention it, it's not much use

[Padraig]

[quote name='Loras Bernadotte-LÃ¥ngstrum' post='1392235' date='Jun 10 2008, 17.56']We're not imposing our game.

But we are winning comfortably. I'll take that anytime though... ;)[/quote]
I was thinking of your earlier comments when I was watching the match. ;) The Spanish have taken some pages from the Dutch playbook. 2 goals by Villa and yes, Iniesta has been crowded out a few times but great pass for the goal. Russia have been good but the Spanish have a great attacking side.