FOOTBALL!

[kve]

Well as Ran said, it's not off-side if the player moved behind the goal line with the purpose of making it off-side. This was not the case, he was being treated for injury, so off-side it was that first goal.

But nevermind, it was a deserved victory with a stunning Dutch side in the first half and an impotent Italian side the second.

Man of the match for me was Giovanni, had a big part in both last goals.

Most impressive so far for me: Germany and Holland, let's see if Spain can put themselves on the same level tomorrow.


P.S. I'm so glad my memory is erasing most of France-Romania

[Paddy]

[quote name='firqorescu' post='1390965' date='Jun 9 2008, 23.12']I thought France's defense looked [i]really[/i] tight. I wouldn't be surprised if they went through the group stage with zero goals allowed, and that will in all likelihood be enough to take them to the quarter final.[/quote]
I learned nothing about France's defence in that match.
They played with 2 defensive midfielders supporting the defence and more importantly... Romania offered absolutely nothing in attack.
There was no indication that France could deal with any threat offered by Holland, because there was absolutely zero threat to them in the entire match.
I'll wait until I see them play the Netherlands.

[Bronn Stone]

Hard to say without actually watching (only able to watch one half of the second game live and even that is over lunch), but it sounds to me like Romania with GF=0 is more likely than France with GA=0.

[Calibandar]

[quote]This was not the case, he was being treated for injury, so off-side it was that first goal.[/quote]

The goal was allowed becasue Panucci was [b]not [/b]being treated for injury. Buffon pushed him to the side and he lay there. Not only was he not being treated, he also made no sign motioning for treatment. This is why the goal was allowed, according to the ref providing commentary.

As for the follow-up matches, obviously France need to beat Holland now after the Roumania draw. I expect Italy to beat Roumania though, I think Donadoni will make some changes to his team ( like bringing in Grosso and Del Piero, possibly De Rossi as well) and Italy will bounce back.

[kve]

[quote]The goal was allowed becasue Panucci was not being treated for injury. Buffon pushed him to the side and he lay there. Not only was he not being treated, he also made no sign motioning for treatment. This is why the goal was allowed, according to the ref providing commentary.[/quote]
Just read bout this myself, so I guess I'm wrong here. Still don't feel right though.

[Paddy]

[quote name='Msr.Quelavoine' post='1390982' date='Jun 9 2008, 23.23']Well as Ran said, it's not off-side if the player moved behind the goal line with the purpose of making it off-side. This was not the case, he was being treated for injury, so off-side it was that first goal.[/quote]
Where does it say that such a player doesn't make it off-side?
It only mentions intentionally going off the field of play and doing it with or without the referee's permission.
He wasn't off being treated for injury, he was off because that was where he landed after colliding with his goalkeeper.

Or do people think that the linesman thought that the defenders next to him were keeping RvN onside? Because that would be a shockingly bad call, given that he never went back onside.
I believe that the linesman was taking the fallen player into account and that the referee agreed with him, and there's nothing in the rules [i]that I've seen[/i] that says that such a player doesn't affect the offside ruling. It just says nearer to the goalline.

From what I've heard on this so far, there is a consensus from officiators that the rule is that this is not an offside position.

[Marcelo Rebelo Firqoralas]

[quote name='Paddiano Ronaldo' post='1390989' date='Jun 10 2008, 00.27']I learned nothing about France's defence in that match.
They played with 2 defensive midfielders supporting the defence and more importantly... Romania offered absolutely nothing in attack.
There was no indication that France could deal with any threat offered by Holland, because there was absolutely zero threat to them in the entire match.
I'll wait until I see them play the Netherlands.[/quote]
Romania had some decent attempts to get into the box, but the french stopped them very efficiently. The fact that they played with two defensive midfielders also support my statement.

I agree that Romania didn't have a lot of chances, but France have allowed very few goals before this tournament and it was easy to see why: they basically shut down their side of the field completely, just as they did in the WC.

[niamh]

[quote name='Msr.Quelavoine' post='1391007' date='Jun 9 2008, 23.36']Just read bout this myself, so I guess I'm wrong here. Still don't feel right though.[/quote]
referee expert Julian Carosi’s advice appears to clear up the matter.

On his website, he states the following in answer to a question over offside interpreation:

Where should the Assistant Referee place himself to judge for offside in the following instances: A defender’s momentum, takes him out over the goal line but he is not injured.

“Answer: A player leaving the field of play because of his momentum during play, is not deemed to have left without the Referee’s permission and can therefore re-enter without the Referee’s permission. In this instance, although the defender is off the field of play, (and until he returns to the field of play), he should be deemed to be standing on the goal-line (in the field of play) when considering offside. The Assistant Referee should stand in line with the last opponent on the field of play (which in this case will probably be the defending goalkeeper). When deciding offside in this scenario, the two last defending opponents are the defender who has travelled off the field of play, and the defending player who is nearest to the goal line on the field of play (which in all probability will be the goalkeeper).

If an uninjured defender purposefully remains off the field in an attempt to place an attacker in an offside position, then that defender should also be deemed to be standing on the goal-line (on the field of play) when considering offside. Trickery of this nature circumvents the spirit of the offside Law.”

And the ‘Advice to Referees’ booklet, part 11.11, back this up:

“A defender who leaves the field during the course of play and does not immediately return must still be considered in determining where the second to last defender is for the purpose of judging which attackers are in an offside position. Such a defender is considered to be on the touch line or goal line closest to his off-field position. A defender who leaves the field with the referee’s permission (and who thus requires the referee’s permission to return) is not included in determining offside position.”

[Padraig]

So yes, very good Dutch display. Some great attacking options and Robben to come. My man of the match was Sneijder. Set up the 3rd and scored the 2nd. He was passing the ball around very well all through the game and also fought for the ball a lot. Italy did come back into it a bit in the 2nd half. Their pride was at stake. But while the Dutch did look very fit, I think the Italians made them appear a lot better than they were. Poor old Matarazzi just didn't have it in him anymore.

Italy have multiple problems. I would imagine that Toni doesn't play as lone striker for Bayern? He does not appear comfortable in that position and looked rather inept today. Play Del Pierro or Cassano with him. Somebody to give him help. They also seem shorn of central defence cover without Cannavaro. At the same Italy did cause Holland problems. Grosso did a lot better when he came on. Del Pierro looked lively. With a few changes, Italy might recover. Bring on De Rossi, as people mentioned.

But Holland probably do have a weakness in defense. They gave Italy a few too many chances and can thank Var der Saar for keeping it goalless. I think Romania and France will be a lot harder to break down. And if they progress, other teams will also have a solid defence. So any weakness in your own, could be exploited.

France's problem is that they next play Holland. If they lose that then things will be very perilous. They do have a rather ageing defence also, so its set up ideally for the younger Dutch. OTOH, Gallas and Thuram would give me more confidence than the Italian central defence. Besides, very rarely does a team have 2 emphatic games.

In fact, comparing France to the Italian line up today, they seem better across the pitch (except maybe for goalie). Better defence and attack especially. But we'll soon know more.

[lessthanluke]

You lot seriously never learned that if a defender is over the line he is out of playwhen you were growing up? Thats what I was taught.

ITV commentators obviously thought that was the case as well.

[Mathis]

Some thoughts on France:

Raymond Domenech is a tit.

In game against a team with very little attacking threat he decides to play two defensive midfielders.

In a game where France will almost certainly have the bulk of possesion Eric Abidal retains his place despite the fact that Evra has excellent acceleration and close control, exactly the kind of qualities needed to beat a team with ten men behind the ball who don't alow any space to the opposition.

Plays two strikers who have never started a game together in a group where France don't have the luxury of starting slow.

Chooses a young kid whith almost no international experience (Gomis) to be fourth stiker but leaves Trezeguet out of the squad. Granted Trezeguet has been relatively dissapointing for France but come on, he scored over twenty goals in Serie A [i]again[/i].

His team needs a goal to get essential points yet Domenech takes off Anelka and Benzema, replaces them with Gomis and Nasri while leaving the two defensive midfielders on the pitch despite the fact that Romania have shown no inclination to take the game to France.



Holland looked so comfortable in possesion, it was a joy to watch.

Pirlo might just be the best passer of the ball I have ever seen. He seems to caress it.

Hindsight is 20/20 and all that but what the hell was Donandoni doing selecting Ambrosini ahead of De Rossi?



I don't speak any languages but English so I don't know the standard of commentary in other countries but surely it can't be worse than the UK. Is there a more inept analyst than David Pleat? Is there a more irritating commentator that Clive Tyldesly or John Motson or Mark Lawrenson? If only Martin Tyler and Andy Gray could be there. Seriously, if David Pleat calls Camoranesi 'Caramonesi' one more time...

[Xray the Enforcer]

Wow. Netherlands-Italy match not as one-sided as the score would suggest. I agree with Pod, in that Toni just looks lost. How many times were they in the penalty area (hell, right in front of the goal), and they still couldn't convert? And yeah, a bit weak in the midfield.

Still, well done by Netherlands.

[Lord of Oop North]

I'm not going to be able to watch the Czech vs Portugal game tomorrow ... waaah :tantrum:

*looks for videotapes*

[MercenaryChef]

france looked flaccid and dull. playing defensive football against a team that has little offensive strength nauseated me. anelka was without any true chances. ribery did not really get on the ball until the 2nd half. i really was unimpressed. they did not look like a side who deserve to advance.

netherlands however never stopped entertaining. they handled the italian attack with a lot more resolve then is customary for their side. the first goal was certainly offside, but the ref made it right by calling van persie offsides in the 2nd half. fuck up one call, call another; all is forgiven in the world.

still i am holding that germany will take the crown. they are still playing fast, inventive attacking football that they did under the klinsmann regime. i feared that they would lapse back into that oh so customary methodical german play the looks like a computer simulation of proper disciplined football technique.

i am very curious to see what fabregas servicing fernando torres will produce for the spanish. the both had outstanding years in the premiership, hopefully it will translate into euro productivity.

[BLU-RAY]

[quote name='Lord of Oop North' post='1391280' date='Jun 9 2008, 17.56']I'm not going to be able to watch the Czech vs Portugal game tomorrow ... waaah :tantrum:

*looks for videotapes*[/quote]

... it's on Wednesday, innit?

[Biter]

[quote name='Gazprom United' post='1391265' date='Jun 10 2008, 03.43']Wow. [b]Netherlands-Italy match not as one-sided as the score would suggest.[/b] I agree with Pod, in that Toni just looks lost. How many times were they in the penalty area (hell, right in front of the goal), and they still couldn't convert? And yeah, a bit weak in the midfield.

Still, well done by Netherlands.[/quote]

I thought the same. I hope Italy learns their lesson, and at least scores a few goals in their next two games.

France reminded me how boring 90 minutes of football really can be.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Podezine Podane']Italy have multiple problems. I would imagine that Toni doesn't play as lone striker for Bayern?[/quote]

Toni certainly doesn't play alone up front for Bayern, his partner there is Klose who can be very unselfish for a striker. With Italy, Camoranesi and Di Natale were supposed to support him, but the former almost never seemed to go forward while the latter might have scored early in the first half if Toni had tried to set him up instead of attempting a weak header but otherwise ran himself ragged, he was almost the only Italian who seemed to be trying and did a lot of tracking back, particularly when the defenders were obviously too slow to stop Dutch counterattacks.

Romania will not be pleased with this result as Italy will give their all to win in the next game, otherwise it's rotten fruit for them again once they get home.;)

[quote name='MercenaryChef']netherlands however never stopped entertaining. they handled the italian attack with a lot more resolve then is customary for their side. [b]the first goal was certainly offside[/b], but the ref made it right by calling van persie offsides in the 2nd half. fuck up one call, call another; all is forgiven in the world.[/quote]

No it wasn't. As lots of people in the thread have explained (and as the German commentator surprisingly and accurately observed immediately) Panucci wasn't considered out of play. He had been knocked down by a collision with Buffon just a couple of seconds earlier which counts as his momentum carrying him past the goal line, which in turn means that while he is out there he is considered to be standing on the goal line.

[MercenaryChef]

[quote name='Jean AS' post='1391531' date='Jun 9 2008, 22.17']No it wasn't. As lots of people in the thread have explained (and as the German commentator surprisingly and accurately observed immediately) Panucci wasn't considered out of play. He had been knocked down by a collision with Buffon just a couple of seconds earlier which counts as his momentum carrying him past the goal line, which in turn means that while he is out there he is considered to be standing on the goal line.[/quote]

ok, i digress. it was onside. but still, i was completely unimpressed by italy. their age is showing a great deal. as a bayern supporter i really like luca toni and i wanted him to do well. having him all alone in the front without any good service was asinine. as previously stated by podane, in bayern he is up with klose or podolski and his midfielders are scoring threats. he is worldclass, but if you are not going to get him the ball he will not score. rocketing that shot over the post that should have been a delicate lob over vandersar was criminal. i wanted to see his customary hand shaking by the ear celebration.

[The Inquisitor]

So Spain today... I don't know what we are going to do... what I do know is that we are not going to win this thing anytime soon. :/

What I do know is that we are going to be one of the few, if not the only after what we have seen so far, with a clear intention to take control of the ball, dictate tempo and at least try to play some decent football.

As you might have heard, Fabregas isn't in Aragonés first XI.

We are going to field:

Casillas
Ramos-Marchena-Pujol-Capdevila
Senna
Iniesta-Xavi-Silva
Villa-Torres

[The Stranger]

many of the best matches are coming on at 1:45 Jakarta time. this will not stand--I was graced with the opportunity to watch my once favorite national team regale me with the grace of a sea slug against a team which seemed to field ten defenders, but i was unable to watch my beloved Team Kuyt conduct their drubbing against the vile Latinates.