The ethics of "free" e-books

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

SSE,

Don't you find the morality argument never really persuades those who don't already share a similar moral code?

Better to stick with the instrumentalist argument (IMO) that the authors, editors, copyeditors and formatters all making less money because of torrenting causes people to not go into those professions (or be unable to commit to them on a full time basis). Over time that means that potentially great books will never get written or published.

Instrumentalist arguments ARE moral arguments. They're a species of moral arguments. They just happen to be a BAD species of moral arguments.

And they are usually impossible to completely disentangle, anyway. If the sole criteria for the correctness of a policy regarding creative works is to facilitate the creation of great books, maybe we should dramatically increase taxes on all people other than authors and provide all authors with an annual stipend of $100,000 per year. Think about how many more potentially great books would get written if you had a couple thousand more monkeys banging away on typewriters for $100,000 per year.

[SerHaHa]

Just because you can get away with something it does not therefore follow you should do something. The effort of authors, editors, copyeditors, and formaters deserves compensation. To say these things should just be "free" says that these efforts are unworthy of compensation.

Where exactly did you find anything in my post to the contrary??

What I said was the prices need restructuring if they want piracy to be reduced, especially for digital content/epub format - no place did I ever say that those responsible for creation of content shouldn't be compensated, quite the opposite. I never condoned that practice of those using torrents/p2p to "borrow" content, I just described it, and what I think a large cause and the effects are. Please cut and paste an example of wth you're talking about regarding where I condoned it in any way, or said that that the creators should work for free.

I think I made it quite clear that they'll never be able to stop piracy, it'll be a failed war if it is started, just like the war on drugs, and that if those creating content want to really do something about it, a more realistic approach than an all out legal assault on those not paying for your material is required, and the only way to go IMO is to create a more attractive and realistic pricing model for digital content. Leave pricing for physical content like books and Blu Rays the same, few of them are stolen - borrowed, whatever - compared to digital format, so fight back on that front with low enough prices to attract those currently borrowing/stealing to start paying. I gave my opinion on the cost of digital content compared to physical, and such a reduction would still be quite profitable IMO.

See, the content creators are complaining that their content isn't being payed for. My argument is they are taking advantage of a new worldwide delivery method (widespread hi speed internet globally) which they had no hand in creating or supporting, yet still charging rates comparable to much more expensive to produce physical content. I'm not saying that should be an excuse to not pay for the content, but I do understand how those who don't pay aren't motivated to pay for the "real deal" when it costs as much as buying a book or DVD/Blu ray, and the digital piracy is sitting right there for anyone to use. Why should creators/producers get to reach far more customers through the internet, and still reap the same returns as they did with traditional means? Should there not be some break, or advantage to use the digital means for the customer? A serious one? I gave examples of GRRM's latest books, the week they came out the digital copies were nearly as much as the physical copies, and are still only a few dollars cheaper. Ridiculous. I fully believe that realistic low prices would cut piracy drastically, who would risk a virus or crappy copy when they real deal could be bought for a couple dollars? Much fewer folks IMO.

[unJon]

Instrumentalist arguments ARE moral arguments. They're a species of moral arguments.

That's fair. I was being loose. I meant that SSE's argument concludes don't do it because it's wrong. The instrumentalist argument ends with don't do it because the consequences lead to a state of world you would prefer to avoid.

The rest of your post is silly and not worth responding to.

[Darth Richard II]

Taking something for free without paying for it isn't stealing?

[Lady Winter Rose]

Taking something for free without paying for it isn't stealing?

No. Why? Because salesmen could still sold every copy he planned to sell. That's not a car, you can't sell a car if somebody stole it, but you could still sell every copy of ebook if somebody downloaded for free. Well, unless you planned to sell your copy to every man living, that might be a problem, but you won't.

[Darth Richard II]

I think there is a language barrier issue here.

[sologdin]

yeah, it can't be theft as there's no taking/carrying away and no permanent deprivation of a thing owned by another.

copyright violation in this context usually means making a duplicate of another's thing and keeping the duplicate. the other still retains its thing in all its thinginess.

with 3D printers, i might dupe your grrrrrns so the cops can't come snatch my crops--i haven't took your grrrrrns, and permanently deprived you of them thereby, but rather merely violated some copyright rule that is unlikely to survive the strict scrutiny of second amendment fundamentalism.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Similar could apply to making fake money, but there's no victims here. No illegal download possible -> people will ignore products. Full stop.

I would like to tell illegal download could be some kind of promotion, but download/read ratio isn't perfect. Not every book will be brought

I still think it's not a crime.

[sologdin]

a somewhat dangerous statement, as infringement is subject to criminal prohibition in the US under certain circumstances, such as in 17 USC 506 via 18 USC 2319. we can of course disagree with the legislation, but perhaps reckless to act as though it doesn't exist.

[Lady Winter Rose]

a somewhat dangerous statement, as infringement is subject to criminal prohibition in the US under certain circumstances, such as in 17 USC 506 via 18 USC 2319. we can of course disagree with the legislation, but perhaps reckless to act as though it doesn't exist.

Law change over time. See how drug perception changed in last 20 years. Or 50 years.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LWR,

Similar could apply to making fake money, but there's no victims here. No illegal download possible -> people will ignore products. Full stop.

I would like to tell illegal download could be some kind of promotion, but download/read ratio isn't perfect. Not every book will be brought

I still think it's not a crime.

If you prefer eBooks (as many claim they do to justify torrenting a book not released in digital format) and you've torrented the book why buy it when it is released in eBook format. You'd be paying for something you already possess. That would be a lost sale due to torrenting. That is damage to the creators of the work.

SerHaHa,

Your post, generally, implied that (paraphrasing) "it's going to happen and we can't stop it why worry". That would is why I offered a moral argument against it.

As I've said before pricing probably should come down to attempt to cut into piracy. However, the primary cost of paper books is not merely paper and storage. It costs money and time to write books, edit books, copyedit books, and format books. Those are non-trivial and don't disappear because books are distrubuted in digital format.

[Lady Winter Rose]

LWR,

If you prefer eBooks (as many claim they do to justify torrenting a book not released in e format) and you've torrented the book why buy it when it is released in eBook format. You'd be paying for something you already possess. That would be a lost sale due to torrenting. That is damage to the creators of the work.

Why buy it? I bought many things I pirated before. Like HBO subscription when GOT season 3 was airing. That's because I still want real thing. Other reason might be that pirating influence me like some ads or free promotion copies.

Yes, I don't feel ashamed or angry at ads.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LWR,

You are presuming everyone will behave as you do. I guarantee not everyone will. If the book can be had for free there are some people who will take the free copy and not buy.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Is it a 'lost sale' everytime a library book is checked out?

[sologdin]

Law change over time. See how drug perception changed in last 20 years. Or 50 years.

sure. but right now it is in fact unlawful. nothing is gained by obscurity on this point.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lari,

Is it a 'lost sale' everytime a library book is checked out?

No. Do you get to keep the library book forever after you've checked it out?

[Hello World]

No. Do you get to keep the library book forever after you've checked it out?

What if I pirate an ebook then delete the file after reading it?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

HW,

Are you obligated to do so? Will you face fines if you do not? Then, not the same thing as checking out and then returning a book.

[Eponine]

HW,

Are you obligated to do so? Will you face fines if you do not? Then, not the same thing as checking out and then returning a book.

How do you feel, Scot, about unofficial (like open library, or sites that compile library books and let you borrow from non-local libraries) borrowing sites, where you click an agreement that you'll delete a borrowed ebook and not keep a copy? There's no particular way for the lender to enforce it, but then there's no way for me to enforce that anyone who borrows a book from me hasn't made a copy, and even if I knew they had, I wouldn't try to prosecute them (which I feel certain would go nowhere even I were the type of person to try).

[Hello World]

I know from my college days that plenty of people used to borrow textbooks from the library and photocopy the chapters they needed or the entire book.