The ethics of "free" e-books

[Larry of the Lawn]

My nook is about to crap out completely, and unless I manage to get a tech savvy friend to strip all the DRMs and put them on my computer to be transferred to a new device, I will probably pirate all the ebooks I've bought on there so they don't die with it. Because I'm not buying a new Barnes and Noble one. Probably not your average use of illegally downloading but I don't feel bad about it at all.

[Shryke]

I understand that. I will use the DVD as an example. I buy The Hobbit, I can put it on my laptop and transfer it to my iPad. Then I can watch it anywhere. I'm not buying it through iTunes also, I don't care if that bothers people. I'm not purchasing the SAME product over and over. That's robbery. As long as I use it myself and don't try and profit from it, or make it available to others for free, I'm hurting no one. You cannot convince me that I'm in the wrong. Its the same with a book. I don't get where a reasonable human being can set and tell me in a straight face, that I'm doing something wrong. If you think that I am, I say your a greedy ass and part of the reason humanity looks like a pile of shit. No different from the "pirates" who take everything for free.

Uh, what? You start off with a reasonable enough argument but the end of this post is just fucking ridiculous.

Your position is not at all reasonable. If you own the content, why do you need to download it from someone else? And why are you distributing it to other people? (torrent involves both) Why can't you reproduce the content and sell it to other people? Hell, why would the actual owners of the content even sell the different formats of the product if those weren't different products?

The answer is because you don't own an unlimited license to use the content. And so, no, owning the book does not entitle you to the eBook as well. You are confusing what you wish to be so with what actually is.

The thing with your The Hobbit example is that if you actually look at the various copies of the product you can buy, they differentiate between those copies. You can buy the DVD or the Blu-ray or the DVD + Digital Copy or some combination of the above depending on the product and all are different formats and content and all are separate products.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Semantics. LOL, you guys blow me away, seriously. So all that money Larry forked out for his eBooks, he's about to lose, uhhhh he's just shit outta luck? Well, I'd go ahead and do exactly what he said he was gonna do also.

Yes, you guys are correct and its illegal. I'm not arguing with you there. But, when you say I'm in the wrong for the examples I've given you as to how I would download one for free. I just can't fathom how you think so. Maybe y'all have money to wipe your ass with, I don't. So go ahead and be the morally correct one. I will continue to operate the way I do, and not have any guilt whatsoever. I guess, agree to disagree. Sorry if I offended any of you, but I feel at tad bit offended myself.

Also to clarify, I don't even use torrent. I don't share anything with anyone, don't give anything away at all. So your point is mute. Like I said, you guys are just above me, way better people.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lari

My nook is about to crap out completely, and unless I manage to get a tech savvy friend to strip all the DRMs and put them on my computer to be transferred to a new device, I will probably pirate all the ebooks I've bought on there so they don't die with it. Because I'm not buying a new Barnes and Noble one. Probably not your average use of illegally downloading but I don't feel bad about it at all.

Another reason why I prefer paper. My books, some purchased 30 years ago, aren't about to "crap out".

[MisterOJ]

My nook is about to crap out completely, and unless I manage to get a tech savvy friend to strip all the DRMs and put them on my computer to be transferred to a new device, I will probably pirate all the ebooks I've bought on there so they don't die with it. Because I'm not buying a new Barnes and Noble one. Probably not your average use of illegally downloading but I don't feel bad about it at all.

You can go ahead and log onto Barnes & Noble's website and download everything you've ever bought to your computer to back it up. And, once it is there, it is super easy to crack the DRM and convert the files to whatever format you want. All you need is the free ebook management program Calibre and one simple add-on for it. I am not tech savvy at all and the whole process took me about 15 minutes to do - and that included quite a bit of fumbling around with the add-on.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

You can go ahead and log onto Barnes & Noble's website and download everything you've ever bought to your computer to back it up. And, once it is there, it is super easy to crack the DRM and convert the files to whatever format you want. All you need is the free ebook management program Calibre and one simple add-on for it. I am not tech savvy at all and the whole process took me about 15 minutes to do - and that included quite a bit of fumbling around with the add-on.

:bowdown:

[Darth Richard II]

Uh, what? You start off with a reasonable enough argument but the end of this post is just fucking ridiculous.

Your position is not at all reasonable. If you own the content, why do you need to download it from someone else? And why are you distributing it to other people? (torrent involves both) Why can't you reproduce the content and sell it to other people? Hell, why would the actual owners of the content even sell the different formats of the product if those weren't different products?

The answer is because you don't own an unlimited license to use the content. And so, no, owning the book does not entitle you to the eBook as well. You are confusing what you wish to be so with what actually is.

The thing with your The Hobbit example is that if you actually look at the various copies of the product you can buy, they differentiate between those copies. You can buy the DVD or the Blu-ray or the DVD + Digital Copy or some combination of the above depending on the product and all are different formats and content and all are separate products.

Good Lord, I agree with shryke. Trult these are the end days.

[Shryke]

Semantics. LOL, you guys blow me away, seriously. So all that money Larry forked out for his eBooks, he's about to lose, uhhhh he's just shit outta luck? Well, I'd go ahead and do exactly what he said he was gonna do also.

Yes, you guys are correct and its illegal. I'm not arguing with you there. But, when you say I'm in the wrong for the examples I've given you as to how I would download one for free. I just can't fathom how you think so. Maybe y'all have money to wipe your ass with, I don't. So go ahead and be the morally correct one. I will continue to operate the way I do, and not have any guilt whatsoever. I guess, agree to disagree. Sorry if I offended any of you, but I feel at tad bit offended myself.

Also to clarify, I don't even use torrent. I don't share anything with anyone, don't give anything away at all. So your point is mute. Like I said, you guys are just above me, way better people.

Well, yes, it would appear so. You've stopped pretending this is anything but "I want but can't afford, so I get it illegally".

[Which Tyler]

All whilst not arguing about the legality.

Legality =/= Morality

[Lady Winter Rose]

Not to mention actual popular author gaiman said piracy is not causing harm and that he doesn't see any wrong in it.

[unJon]

Why are the Mods blind to this thread?

[SilentRoamer]

Tracker,

Exactly. If you copy a book for personal use no one will ever know to complain. However, if you copy a book for personal use and then make that copy available on line for others to copy that's a very different story.

Ok so if you buy the book and make a copy anonymously this is somehow different? You should know my argument by now, I don't mind buying the books but I won't pay twice for the digital copy as well (at least not at current pricing). In truth I read physical books most of the time and can honestly say I have only referenced a few books on kindle - for online discussions mostly. I do appreciate your viewpoint however and I am not trying to proclaim some moral correctness.

I really appreciated Joe Abercrombies comments regarding the pricing of ebooks and maximizing of profit point margins and it has given me something to think about. What would be interesting would be a study on percentage of people who buy a physical book and would also buy a digital copy at full price compared with those who would buy a physical book and a digital copy at discounted price. Worth remembering there are the ebook only buyers who would never buy a physical book ever (these discounts would not affect profit point margins on their sales) - in their case they could pay a figure near to the mark Joe Abercrombie was talking about. An e-book should only ever be priced as a a percentage of a physical book because you are not buying anything that has tangible meaning outside of intended devices.

There is no way pricing an ebook at the same price as a physical copy is anything other than daylight robbery and does nothing to help authors achieve maximal profit efficiency. I am not hugely knowledgeable on the publishing market (although I am remedying this) but it seems to me that the big players also have a lot of vested interests in enterprises close to home (distribution, warehousing, production, marketing, design, etc. etc.) and a switch over to a more profitable ebook model for the author would result in less physical book sales (and all other associated revenue streams tied into everything mentioned) and profit for them.

Anyway just my opinions and any all can feel free to disagree but lets keep it all nice and civil. :)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LWR,

Not to mention actual popular author gaiman said piracy is not causing harm and that he doesn't see any wrong in it.

I think Neil Gaiman, as you point out is a very "popular author", who has many varied publications may have an easier time accepting/dealing with piracy for two reasons: first, many publications means he's also had many sales; second, he started publishing in the 80s long before digital piracy was a significant problem. The fact that Gaiman has made his money and is comfortable means it is much easier to be blazee about piracy than a first time author who wants to make writing a profession.

SR,

I really appreciated Joe Abercrombies comments regarding the pricing of ebooks and maximizing of profit point margins and it has given me something to think about. What would be interesting would be a study on percentage of people who buy a physical book and would also buy a digital copy at full price compared with those who would buy a physical book and a digital copy at discounted price. Worth remembering there are the ebook only buyers who would never buy a physical book ever (these discounts would not affect profit point margins on their sales) - in their case they could pay a figure near to the mark Joe Abercrombie was talking about. An e-book should only ever be priced as a a percentage of a physical book because you are not buying anything that has tangible meaning outside of intended devices.

Well, I, for one, think a model where a hardback copy of a book makes a free or discounted copy of an ebook makes sense. It would cut down on piracy and satisfy many.

What I'm frustrated by is your insistence that if you own the book the digital information is, therefore, yours by "right" or "entitlement". That... is... not... the... case.

Many other forms of media, music and DVDs for example, do allow people who buy physical media to then obtain free or inexpensive downloadable copies of the same thing. That is a pragmatic move not, I repeat not, because owning the physical media gives you some legal or moral right to that information. Perhaps being so quick to provide those digital copies have given people the misapprehension that such digital copies are there as a right. That is not the case.

[eta]

BTW, given the points that Mr. Abercrombie (and many others (myself included)) have made regarding the small difference lack of paper/ink/storage make in the price of a book how much of a discount would you want?

[Lady Winter Rose]

LWR,

Ithink Neil Gaiman, as you point out a very "popular author", who has many varied publications may have an easier time accepting/dealing with piracy for two reasons: first, many publications mean he's also had many sales; second, he started publishing in the 80s long before digital piracy was a significant problem. The fact that Gaiman has made his money and is comfortable means it is much easier to be blazee about piracy than a first time author who wants to make writing a profession.

It doesn't matter was he established author or not. He said giving one of his book for free worked like big promotion, just like piracy in Russia help him become more popular.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LWR,

It doesn't matter was he established author or not. He said giving one of his book for free worked like big promotion, just like piracy in Russia help him become more popular.

So, Neil Gaiman's experience must be universally true for all authors? Trackerneil and his co-author gave away their book for free and got nothing but complaints that they were asking for donations for downloading the book. Your anecdote can be contradicted by other anecdote.

[thank you HW]

[Hello World]

LWR,

So, Neil Gaiman's experience must be universally true for all authors? Trackerneil and his co-author gave away their book for free and got nothing but complaints that they were asking for donations for downloading the book. Your anicdote can be contradicted by other anicdotes.

Anecdote.

You can go ahead and log onto Barnes & Noble's website and download everything you've ever bought to your computer to back it up. And, once it is there, it is super easy to crack the DRM and convert the files to whatever format you want. All you need is the free ebook management program Calibre and one simple add-on for it. I am not tech savvy at all and the whole process took me about 15 minutes to do - and that included quite a bit of fumbling around with the add-on.

Yeah, this is standard procedure.

An e-book should only ever be priced as a a percentage of a physical book because you are not buying anything that has tangible meaning outside of intended devices.

If we’re going to follow the rules then I suggest that ebooks ‘sales’ should be treated as if you were renting a book for a period of time. Which means that an ebook that can only be read in a certain way on a certain device and can be deleted from a remote location by the seller should be priced at a tiny fraction of the paper book’s price.

[Lady Winter Rose]

LWR,

So, Neil Gaiman's experience must be universally true for all authors? Trackerneil and his co-author gave away their book for free and got nothing but complaints that they were asking for donations for downloading the book. Your anecdote can be contradicted by other anecdote.

[thank you HW]

Think! Neil Gaiman didn't ask for donation. Hardly comparable, but I would admit I don't know if it's universally true for all authors. I did say this approach could never work for bad authors, who want to sell shit people wouldn't buy in the first place.

Why Trackerneil didn't succeed to earn money? Maybe he try to collect donation to eager. Point of donation isn't 'give money for every copy', it's 'it's your choice will you pay something'. Maybe he shouldn't put his book for donation, and put random price and NOT WORRY about someone downloading book.

Either way, I'm not saying authors should ask for donations if they don't want that. Just put the price on the book, and don't worry about piracy.

[Larry of the Lawn]

You can go ahead and log onto Barnes & Noble's website and download everything you've ever bought to your computer to back it up. And, once it is there, it is super easy to crack the DRM and convert the files to whatever format you want. All you need is the free ebook management program Calibre and one simple add-on for it. I am not tech savvy at all and the whole process took me about 15 minutes to do - and that included quite a bit of fumbling around with the add-on.

Thank you!. Although on the downside this hurts my pirate cred. :(

eta: I'm also stupid. How do you download the books from their site to your pc? I'm logged in, in my library, and I don't see any option to download. I tried the nook reading app but I get a error 1017 when I try to log in, which according to a quick google search is not fixable on my computer.

eta2; apparently you can't use xp with the barnes and noble app.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LWR,

I am thinking, thanks. Perhaps the more reasonable explanation is that Gaiman, as an established author had an easier time with sales as oppoawd to first time author Trackerneil. Because the examples are anecdotial we don't know.

[Larry of the Lawn]

You can go ahead and log onto Barnes & Noble's website and download everything you've ever bought to your computer to back it up. And, once it is there, it is super easy to crack the DRM and convert the files to whatever format you want. All you need is the free ebook management program Calibre and one simple add-on for it. I am not tech savvy at all and the whole process took me about 15 minutes to do - and that included quite a bit of fumbling around with the add-on.

The bolded part. I've been on the website for almost an hour still have not found out how to do this. Searching their tech support says "it is not necessary to backup files from your NOOK to your pc because Barnes and Noble stores the info in your account". I can't use the nook for pc app because it doesn't work with xp or windows 7. B&N tech support basically told me to take a hike, presumably because they know I'm not going to by another one of their e-readers.