Cricket VIII

[Tsoert]

Best feeling ever.

Overall, it was an amazing effort by England to recover from the Headingly mauling and from crippling injuries to their two best players. Having said that, credit should go to Australia for putting up such a fight with a fairly inexperienced team. If it wasn't for Panesar and Anderson at Cardiff, they would have retained the Ashes.

To be fair I think most of the team have played some major part in one test or another just not particularly consistently

[Paxter]

To be fair I think most of the team have played some major part in one test or another just not particularly consistently

True. But I think that when Australia look back at the series, they will identify the failure to deal with the tail at Cardiff as one of the main reasons that they couldn't at least draw the series.

Anyway, I'm just going to savour this moment now. I'll save the analysis for tomorrow morning ;).

[Maltaran]

True. But I think that when Australia look back at the series, they will identify the failure to deal with the tail at Cardiff as one of the main reasons that they couldn't at least draw the series.

IIRC, Anderson and Panesar survived for 12 overs that evening. Definitely a big failure by the Aussie bowlers there (some commentators on the radio today were suggesting that Katich should have bowled at them).

[Ser Sean]

What a horrible way to go. Ponting was going so well; and then for Clarke to go cheaply is just terrible.

This is sort of sour grapes, but then again it isn't, because those of you who have been around will remember that I had issue with it four years ago, two years ago, and now (every Ashes series). Has no one ever pulled up Flintoff for his idiotic way of celebrating? It is the most arrogant, unsportsmanlike celebration I've ever seen, at the fall of every wicket to spread your arms wide and pretend for just a few seconds that you're God.

Smells exactly like sour grapes to me.

[DJDonegal]

Awesome.

[MoP]

So the open top bus ride through London is Tuesday, followed by OBEs for all on Wednesday?

In all seriousness though, congratulations England on a deserved win. We failed too many times with the bat to really deserve the series.

[Jeor]

Smells exactly like sour grapes to me.

Well, I already acknowledged that it was. ;) But I've made the same observations for the past four years, so at least give me some credit there. ;) Anyway, apologies for the earlier snarkiness. I wasn't like that in 2005 and thoroughly enjoyed the discussion but some comments must have just got my gander here.

Well, I'm glad we all went down in a heap at the end as opposed to dragging it out. Congratulations on a good Ashes win, England; that Cardiff Test match was really the dealbreaker now, as we look back on it (and Ponting's decision to bowl two spinners to Panesar at the end).

On the actual match, once again an Aussie veteran saves his career with a century at the Oval, but in a futile cause. It was Hussey this year, and it was Hayden in 2005, I hope for Australian cricket's sake that Hussey has the same rebirth as Hayden did after that series. We've now dropped to fourth in the rankings (perhaps a little unfairly, I think) so there should be even more incentive now to get things back together.

A sad way for Ponting to go. He won't be around for another England tour; he'll probably now just call it quits after the next Ashes series when he's (hopefully) won them back. Not that it really matters anyway; while other fans might settle for mediocrity or explain away things, Australian fans will just castigate his team as a bunch of useless losers. ;) A shame that his record will always be tainted by those two fateful England tours.

[DJDonegal]

He has a chance to at least win a test series in England* when he tours here against Pakistan next summer. ;)

ETA: *As captain.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Ponting is a great player. All cricket fans know this, and losing the ashes damages Ponting's legacy as much as the 2006 ashes damaged Flintoff's. Neither were great captains (Flintoff was pretty awful) but they will be remembered as great players none the less.

Its going to be very strange as an England test cricket fan without Flintoff. He's one of the last true characters cricket had, and its sad to see him go before his time. He definitely left his mark on the sport. No question.

Moving on, i guess we should consider the England team touring SA? Certainties are:

Strauss

Pieterson (if fit)

Collingwood

Trott

Prior

Broad

Swann

Anderson

The rest is up in the air. Should Broad take Flintoff's old batting spot? I can't stand Bopara. He's a one-day batsman, with the arrogance of someone considerably more skilled than he really is. Bell is a lost cause. I'm inclined to give Cook a rest, and try out Key or Denly for this series. Onions is fairly average, and Harmison is just too inconsistent. Ideally i'd bring back Sidebottom here, or maybe even Mahmood again. If England want two spinners, then Rashid should come over Panesar IMO.

[DJDonegal]

Collingwood a certainty? Clearly we haven't been watching the same Collingwood. Is there one apart from Paul staking a claim for the England team? Paul's average for the series is 27.77. His last 4 innings have been 0, 4, 24, 1. He is not a certainty by a long, long way.

Cook is a near certainty. I know he has had a bad series (worse than Collingwood even) but age is on his side, and it isn't on Collingwood's. If Cook was to be replaced, I don't know county cricket well enough to hazard who would replace him, but I have heard that name Denly mentioned a couple of times.

I don't know what happened to Bopara this series. I have a feeling he was found out much the same way Bell was back in 2005. He can come back from this (and indeed, in county cricket this weekend scored a double century).

In South Africa the pitches will be harder and faster than the England pitches - therefore Harmison's value rises dramatically.

If Mahmood ever comes back I'll cry.

I agree with your other certainties.

[delete this account pls]

Well played England :cheers: I had this awful nightmare last night in which you won the Ashes, so congratulations.

What a horrible way to go. Ponting was going so well; and then for Clarke to go cheaply is just terrible.

This is sort of sour grapes, but then again it isn't, because those of you who have been around will remember that I had issue with it four years ago, two years ago, and now (every Ashes series). Has no one ever pulled up Flintoff for his idiotic way of celebrating? It is the most arrogant, unsportsmanlike celebration I've ever seen, at the fall of every wicket to spread your arms wide and pretend for just a few seconds that you're God.

I'll be glad to see the back of him, and I know it's motivated somewhat by the fact that Australia are losing right now. ;) By all accounts he is an earnest guy, but when you put all his off-field problems, alcohol problems, and then his rather arrogant way of showboating and celebrating, I can't say he's my favourite role model.

See what I will remember most about Freddie is the 3rd Ashes Test in 2005, when we fell so heartbreakingly short of winning, and Brett Lee just dropped to his knees on the pitch. The rest of England were celebrating, but Freddie took the time to go and talk to Lee and give him an 'attaboy pat on the back. I thought it was a great gesture, so I've had a soft spot for him since then.

[Indigo Cloak]

I was compared to Stuart Broad today (looks-wise, I'm a poor cricketer). I am flattered :)

Wish I could get a test 5 wicket haul to help save England though.

[ljkeane]

I don't know what happened to Bopara this series. I have a feeling he was found out much the same way Bell was back in 2005. He can come back from this (and indeed, in county cricket this weekend scored a double century).

In South Africa the pitches will be harder and faster than the England pitches - therefore Harmison's value rises dramatically.

I think there's a good chance Harmison is going to retire.

I agree about Collingwood and I think Bopara has the talent to be in the team but he needs to bat lower down the order. I'm not sure about Broad batting at seven yet either, England should probably try and develop a four man attack and if Broad continues to improve as an all rounder then move back to having five bowlers.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Collingwood a certainty? Clearly we haven't been watching the same Collingwood. Is there one apart from Paul staking a claim for the England team? Paul's average for the series is 27.77. His last 4 innings have been 0, 4, 24, 1. He is not a certainty by a long, long way.

Cook is a near certainty. I know he has had a bad series (worse than Collingwood even) but age is on his side, and it isn't on Collingwood's. If Cook was to be replaced, I don't know county cricket well enough to hazard who would replace him, but I have heard that name Denly mentioned a couple of times.

I don't know what happened to Bopara this series. I have a feeling he was found out much the same way Bell was back in 2005. He can come back from this (and indeed, in county cricket this weekend scored a double century).

In South Africa the pitches will be harder and faster than the England pitches - therefore Harmison's value rises dramatically.

If Mahmood ever comes back I'll cry.

I agree with your other certainties.

Sorry, forgot to explain my colly reasoning.

I think he should play at least for the SA series. Calling him a certainty takes it too far, but i do like the reliable/old hand/anchor/jack of all trades role he provides this England team, particularly with the higher level of inexperience. Lets say we play Collingwood, but watch him like a hawk. Age isn't so much a factor with Collingwood.

I'm not abandoning Cook, i just feel he needs a bit of time away from the side. Let him rest up, work on his game, play for his county a bit. As you say he has age on his side. I just sense he could have a rough time in South Africa. That looseness when driving outside the offstump is so exploitable.

I guess Bopara will be back at some point. Hopefully not for a while though. He scores lots of runs against mediocre bowling, but clearly falls short at the higher levels.

harmison... eh. He's doesn't do well on tours, no matter what the pitches are like. Had enough of the bloke tbh, although i respect his acheivements. I'd prefer us to pick someone else and stick with them now.

[DemonKing]

Well done England - I think 2-1 is a reasonably fair reflection given that the Aussies had the better of 2 matches and England 3.

The stats are probably a bit of an oddity though - Australia had 3 bowlers with 20+ wickets in the end and 8 centuries in the series compared to England with no bowlers at the 20 mark and only 2 centuries in the series, however with reflection I think a lot of our hundreds probably came in the second innings while struggling to save games and all of Anderson, Flintoff, Broad, Onions & Swann made useful contributions with the ball at some stage...

I think that Australia's new world test ranking is a pretty fair reflection of how far we've fallen since the Warne-McGrath era, although I don't think we'll ever be quite as low as the side Alan Border inherited in the 80s was. We're probably a decent spinner away from a fairly good team.

I've never rated Ponting as a captain and he didn't seem to do anything to change that notion in this series - not playing a spinner (even Hauritz) at the Oval in particular was a fatal error.

[williamjm]

To be fair I think most of the team have played some major part in one test or another just not particularly consistently

I think that was one of the crucial elements in England's series victory. In every game except the disaster Headingley there was one or two players who stepped up and delivered a match-winning/match-saving performance when it was needed (Broad and Trott in the last Test, for example). It was quite a thin line between success and failure because often those people having good days had little back-up since there was rarely an innings where all the batsmen or all the bowlers managed to put in a good performance.

Australia's batsmen and bowlers may have averaged better overall but they tended not to seize opportunities when they were presented and did poorly at crucial moments.

Overall, it was an entertaining series, with rarely a dull moment and the momentum swinging repeatedly between the two-sides. The standard of cricket may not have been quite as high on either side as 2005, but I think it will still be a memorable series despite that.

I think it is important now that England don't get too carried away. They did after the 2005 Ashes win and then complacently marched to a heavy defeat against Pakistan beginning a long decline. This time they have an even tougher follow-up, after some interminable one-day matches they get to tour South Africa and I'd rate the current South Africa team much higher than the current Austrlian team. The bowling attack is pretty good although lacking a bit in consistency (incidentally, Broad tops the averages, which I wouldn't have expected a couple of tests ago) but the batting was pretty weak overall. Two centuries in five tests is poor (I wonder when the last time was England scored so few centuries in a 5-match series?). They also depended too much on a relatively strong lower-order to build decent totals - there was statistic earlier in the series that the bottom 5 had out-scored the top 5 at that point and both Swann and Broad averaged better than Collingwood, Bopara, Bell and Cook throughout the series (Swann is actually the fourth-highest run scorer in the series and only one behind Collingwood). Although Trott looks like a good find too much of the batting seems to depend on Strauss (and Pietersen when he returns from injury) and it's really not obvious where decent replacement batsmen are going to come from.

As for Australia, they now seem to have a typically English problem of a batting line-up which averages highly but has a tendency to collapse dramatically at inopportune moments. I doubt they'll really change the batting line-up much, although I think they should try to find a proper opener - Watson did reasonably well but he doesn't really have the right technique for an opening batsmen and should be better placed at 6 (if he's in the team at all). The bowling should be more of a concern - the bowlers rarely looked threatening and their averages are a bit flattered by how badly some of the England top-order played.

[Stubby]

Fair play England - completely outdid our lot in this last match.

Hussey was very good, but like other posters have said - he was very lucky. And he did call for the single which got Ponting run out. Not entirely his fault, with a lot of credit due to Freddie for some good fielding, but you don't do that to your skipper when your spot in the team is on the line.

Now then, its AFL season again. :P

[Horza]

Well done England, you guys turned it on in the crucial sessions and that made all the difference.

[Horza]

Well done England - I think 2-1 is a reasonably fair reflection given that the Aussies had the better of 2 matches and England 3.

The stats are probably a bit of an oddity though - Australia had 3 bowlers with 20+ wickets in the end and 8 centuries in the series compared to England with no bowlers at the 20 mark and only 2 centuries in the series, however with reflection I think a lot of our hundreds probably came in the second innings while struggling to save games and all of Anderson, Flintoff, Broad, Onions & Swann made useful contributions with the ball at some stage...

I think that Australia's new world test ranking is a pretty fair reflection of how far we've fallen since the Warne-McGrath era, although I don't think we'll ever be quite as low as the side Alan Border inherited in the 80s was. We're probably a decent spinner away from a fairly good team.

I've never rated Ponting as a captain and he didn't seem to do anything to change that notion in this series - not playing a spinner (even Hauritz) at the Oval in particular was a fatal error.

Agree with this, and (most) of what williamjm said upthread.

Developing a strong tail was crucial for England especially considering the weaknesses in the upper order. English bowlers picked up poor stats bowling at a strong Aussie middle order when the damage had already been done while Aussie bowlers feasted on the English middle order but at crucial times were thwarted by Broad, Swann and co. It was an interesting mishmash of vulnerabilities but poor selection decisions and questionable strategic decisions (though not as many as 2005, I'd argue) compounded our vulnerabilities.

Dropping to 4th is a little harsh but the gaps between that top four are narrower than in recent years and we could be in for an interesting period with no peerless Test side. Or it could be South Africa. Fun times!

[Jeor]

I think the marked difference in stats (8 centuries to 2, etc) is attributable to the fact that England simply played better than us when it mattered. For example, Australia amassed multiple centuries at Cardiff, where it didn't matter, it was a draw. Similarly they clocked up centuries at Edgbaston, where it was a draw. We didn't actually get to make all those centuries count for anything. When the games with results did come, England got the better of them.

Australia's selection policies were also whacko. They didn't use Stu Clark when they should have (Lords, Edgbaston, arguably even Cardiff) but they did use him when they shouldn't have (the Oval). The swap of Watson for Hughes worked, but really Hussey should have been swapped out.

On the injuries front, England suffered more so we don't have any excuses there. England missed Flintoff for some matches and Pietersen for most (even if Pietersen was in bad form, I'm sure a big score would have come around had he stayed fit). We only really lost Lee, and although he was bowling well in tour matches, you never know what he would have been like so long away from Test cricket.

England must keep this Trott fellow. Bell will remain a bit of an enigma. Cook should probably go. Bopara will need to fight his way back in the team. If Pietersen comes back and Trott stays in, batting spots (unless you're an opener) will probably be at a premium as I don't see England dropping Collingwood so easily. It will be interesting to see if the selectors persist with a five-man bowling attack or replace Flintoff's position with a batsman instead. If Broad continues to improve his bowling he might be worth his spot as a fourth bowler, and it strengthens the batting lineup immeasurably. We saw how crucial Swann and Broad were for scoring lower-order runs. Essentially Australia's tail never wagged, apart from Johnson's one knock we didn't really get anything out of 8-11 in the lineup.