Football thread 13

[Renasko]

(NB: although I am definitely against diving and am not 100% that it was not a dive on Wed., I don't see why the players are punished so harshly for what is also the mistake of the ref./linesmen. Perhaps this is another area to further the argument for technology in the beautiful game - though still not 100% on that one either)

Good point, that. The only thing is the referees can't be held to account for every decision they get wrong. There's some decisions they get wrong where you genuinely feel sorry for them. It's a hard task, sometimes. Made harder by the players. I don't care who the player is, even if he's from my team, I don't want to see him cheating.

I'm not sure how much UEFA can do about it. A couple games bans and a few thousand taken from their wages isn't really going to affect some of these guys. The media is the weapon of choice, I'd advise. Let us wage a war. Show video after video of the incidents and have the players fleeing from the press, unable to answer questions, due to their shitty non-professionalism. I tell you, quickly you'd see a damn improvement in their etiquette on the pitch. Look way back to '98, when David Beckham's life was brought to a stand-still, due to his foolish sending off in the World Cup. The media waged a war on him like none other, and what happened? He played his best season ever and helped Man Utd to winning the Treble.

It's not nice, but it's an effective solution, I think. Can't think of any other ways of fixing it, since the managers don't care about it, as long as it works in their favour. Hell, some managers even help cultivate it.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Yeah, that certainly wasn't the best ref-ing I've seen, that ManU-Arsenal game, and that last-second failed send-off of Wegner was pathetic. All that aside, I'm glad to see Arshavin settle into the PL.

Mr. X informs me that Modric has a broken leg. :cry:

Damn.

[mormont]

(NB: although I am definitely against diving and am not 100% that it was not a dive on Wed., I don't see why the players are punished so harshly for what is also the mistake of the ref./linesmen. Perhaps this is another area to further the argument for technology in the beautiful game - though still not 100% on that one either)

There is a whole world of difference between a ref making a mistake, and a player deceiving the ref. It's the difference between me losing money on an investment and you swindling me in a con. You can arguably criticise me for poor judgment in both cases, but you can't seriously suggest that justifies letting you off without penalty for fraud. And that's what we're talking about here.

(If you're not 100% sure it was a dive, by the way, you are in my experience in a group of one. Even Wenger all but admitted it, before discovering a sudden doubt when he realised his player was actually going to be punished for it.)

In a way I think too big a deal is made of diving. Punish people for it, then move on. It's not any bigger a crime than persistent fouling, dangerous tackles, time-wasting, etc. nor is it (in my view) any more immoral.

[Ser Howsmelly]

(If you're not 100% sure it was a dive, by the way, you are in my experience in a group of one. Even Wenger all but admitted it, before discovering a sudden doubt when he realised his player was actually going to be punished for it.)

Ahem. The only person that can be 100% sure about whether or not it was a dive is one Eduardo Da Silva. viz. Group of one. I do take into account THAT tackle + injury and can understand why he may be less willing to take contact. I think the grey area that surrounds diving is the intention. Players can fall all over themselves willy-nilly - there is no rule against falling - but it is the intention behind that fall that is the discerning factor between normal play and cheating.

Aside: Worst dive I've ever seen - Rivaldo, World Cup 2002 Japan/Korea, Brazil v Turkey. Can't remember how badly he was punished (if at all), but that has to be the most blatant act of cheating in a high profile football match I can remember. He should have been banned for life.

[polishgenius]

In a way I think too big a deal is made of diving. Punish people for it, then move on. It's not any bigger a crime than persistent fouling, dangerous tackles, time-wasting, etc. nor is it (in my view) any more immoral.

The problem is that those will generally be punished in-play and if they're not, then the ref's made a mistake but mistakes can be accepted. Because of the nature of the offence, a dive is likely to have to be punished post-match and that's where the clamour arises.

[mormont]

Ahem. The only person that can be 100% sure about whether or not it was a dive is one Eduardo Da Silva. viz. Group of one.

Only true in the most pedantic sense, really. I can be 100% sure whether someone means to be offensive, for example, without needing to be inside their head. It depends on the words: if he calls me an arrogant wanker, I can probably be 100% sure. Similarly, I can be 100% sure that a particular player dived if the dive is an egregious example, as here.

Besides, the clear implication of saying that 'you are not 100% sure' is that there is a significant element of doubt, not that you are 99.9999% sure.

Aside: Worst dive I've ever seen - Rivaldo, World Cup 2002 Japan/Korea, Brazil v Turkey. Can't remember how badly he was punished (if at all), but that has to be the most blatant act of cheating in a high profile football match I can remember. He should have been banned for life.

Now that's what I'm talking about below. A life ban for cheating? That's ridiculous, considering the bans that have been handed out for recklessly, even deliberately, causing serious injury to other professionals.

The problem is that those will generally be punished in-play and if they're not, then the ref's made a mistake but mistakes can be accepted. Because of the nature of the offence, a dive is likely to have to be punished post-match and that's where the clamour arises.

Dangerous tackles are increasingly tackled post-match, in fact. And a good thing too, because they're more serious IMO than cheating.

[Fireball07]

Ahem. The only person that can be 100% sure about whether or not it was a dive is one Eduardo Da Silva. viz. Group of one. I do take into account THAT tackle + injury and can understand why he may be less willing to take contact. I think the grey area that surrounds diving is the intention. Players can fall all over themselves willy-nilly - there is no rule against falling - but it is the intention behind that fall that is the discerning factor between normal play and cheating.

Aside: Worst dive I've ever seen - Rivaldo, World Cup 2002 Japan/Korea, Brazil v Turkey. Can't remember how badly he was punished (if at all), but that has to be the most blatant act of cheating in a high profile football match I can remember. He should have been banned for life.

Rivaldo was fined about 7k I think. It was disgraceful.

[Ser Howsmelly]

Besides, the clear implication of saying that 'you are not 100% sure' is that there is a significant element of doubt, not that you are 99.9999% sure.

Well I'm definitely 100% sure that I'm entitled to my opinion and for anyone to claim otherwise is arrogant. And for all the ire that this incident receives, in a year it will hardly be remembered

(it was a CL Qualifier c'mon), guaranteed. Until you invent a mind-reading machine or develop psychic abilities I stand by my assertion that Eduardo is the only person who can be sure of his Intention. As an observer (impartial or otherwise) you are entitled to your opinion as well.

I can't believe Adebayor scored again.... Wankerwankerwanker! Still waiting for him to get egg on his face.

And 7k for Rivaldo? That really is a joke. That's not even a slap on the wrist.

[mormont]

Well I'm definitely 100% sure that I'm entitled to my opinion and for anyone to claim otherwise is arrogant.

Well, let me know when anybody does that. ;) I just pointed out that not many people agree with your opinion, I didn't say that you're not entitled to it.

[Calibandar]

Liverpool lucky to get 3 points at Bolton I thought. A draw would have been more deserved.

Arsenal vs Man U felt like a draw to me as wel. Arsenal had their moments and Man U often didn't. On the other hand the Rooney penalty definitly was a penalty, as the BBC pundits agreed on. Almunia comes out, goes for it, obstructs Rooney who is at full speed and he doesn't get the ball. Clear penalty. And that own goal was just ridiculous. But Arsenal looked the better side. But then they often do, don't they, and then fail to win. There's a difference between deserving to win, and having the potential to win. Arsenal had the latter, but certainly not the former.

In other news: Bayern are back to winning? How boring

Two goals by a fantastic Arjen Robben.

[polishgenius]

Arsenal would probably have beaten us, potentially quite handily, if Fabregas had been playing - the incisive final ball is what they missed and Arshavin wasn't on his game. I thought Wenger should have brought Wilshere on rather than Ramsey though for precisely that reason - he's better at that final pass.

[Paddy]

I know, right? They win a game they didn't deserve to win on their own merit and they STILL bitch about it.

Ser Renasko is a Celtic fan. I don't believe he's a Man Utd fan. I think his opinions are solely due to the penalty that Eduardo won which removed the chance for Celtic to get back in the tie which their fans seem to believe they had.

I haven't seen any United fans bitch about the game, certainly not in this thread.

Re: Arshavin Penalty shout

In real time, I thought it wasn't a pen. I think that I thought Fletcher was diving in, not to tackle, but to block the shot and Arshavin over-stepped the ball and stepped into the challenge.

Replays were pretty conclusive for me that it should have been given, although it didn't effect the outcome and arguably worked out better for Arsenal from a confidence perspective by having a (relatively) new player score a screamer against one of the top teams (although he has had a few of those against Liverpool already :P).

Re: Rooney Penalty

I think it was a penalty and bad judgement from the goalkeeper. Yes, I think Rooney was going down before the contact, but Almunia fouled him all the same. I believe it's possible for both things to be true. Even Lee Dixon thought it was a stone-wall penalty.

Re: Wenger sent to stands

Ridiculous. His infringement was unbelievably minor and completely understandable and affected no one else. And the timing removed any doubt as to whether it should have been done.

I'm not sure that it is actually possible to get up in to the stands from the dugouts in Old Trafford without taking a very round-a-bout route, which I believe is why Wenger ended up doing the Messianic walk along the wall. I don't believe it was an attempt to be dramatic like some seem to be claiming.

Overall, I definitely think the better team on the day lost.

[Black Wizard]

On the Manchester United penalty: it was quite soft. Rooney was already falling over and would never have reached the ball anyway, but Almunia should never have come off his line so when he makes contact with Rooney the ref will give a penalty nine times out of ten, especially at Old Trafford.

Gordon Strachan was quite funny on MOTD2 last night when talking baout the Wenger-bottle incident:

"I'll just kick this bottle away, not harming anyone. You can't do that! I didn't do anything. Yes you did, you kicked that bottle away. I'm going to get my mate the referee involved. He did what? He kicked that bottle away." :lol:

[Padraig]

Until you invent a mind-reading machine or develop psychic abilities I stand by my assertion that Eduardo is the only person who can be sure of his Intention.

I'm just curious. Your argument is that Eduardo fell but he didn't dive right? (Has he said that himself btw?) Or do you think he was actually fouled?

[Ser Howsmelly]

I'm just curious. Your argument is that Eduardo fell but he didn't dive right? (Has he said that himself btw?) Or do you think he was actually fouled?

Not aware if he has commented on the incident or not. It definitely wasn't a foul but I'm asserting that we can't be aware of Eduardo's intention in falling (sometimes a fall is just a fall), plus he did not appeal or anything after the foul though i realise the ref pointed straight at the spot. There is no argument that the ref's decision was faulty.

[Ser Sean]

Firstly, having watched the Eduardo incident a few times now, I have to say that he's unlucky to be pulled up on it. I think he was looking for it but I also think there was contact and we have seen far worse go unpunished.

Moving on, I didn't see the Utd - Arse game on Sat but by all accounts, the scum were unlucky and it's fine to come out and say, Man Utd were lucky and we should have had that one but why do they have to be such bad and bitter losers all the time. It starts with the turkey himself and radiated down through the players and fans.

Arsenal FC really are the worst loosers in world sport and it really gets boring when the inevitable whinging starts.

I'm a Spurs fan, so already have a healthy dislike for Arsenal but I honestly think, were I born and bred in Carlisle, while supporting my local team there, I would detest Arsenal and their total lack of class.

Rant over :)

[Iskaral Pust]

I'm worried about Liverpool. I watched the games against Spurs and Villa and was dismayed by the attitude in the team. Torres is uncharacteristically whiny (he used to just ignore all the fouls and get on with it) and Gerrard was anonymous for most of both games. Not only was Gerrard doing little himself, as captain he wasn't providing much leadership either. Glen Johnson has been a stand-out for his play and also his attitude.

I can't tell if the players are unhappy in general, or don't want to play for Benitez, or if the situation with the owners is wearing on everyone, but that does not look like a team that is ready to play well.

[Ser Sean]

I'm worried about Liverpool. I watched the games against Spurs and Villa and was dismayed by the attitude in the team. Torres is uncharacteristically whiny (he used to just ignore all the fouls and get on with it) and Gerrard was anonymous for most of both games. Not only was Gerrard doing little himself, as captain he wasn't providing much leadership either. Glen Johnson has been a stand-out for his play and also his attitude.

I can't tell if the players are unhappy in general, or don't want to play for Benitez, or if the situation with the owners is wearing on everyone, but that does not look like a team that is ready to play well.

Liverpool's main problem is that they let the man who linked everything together go and didn't replace him with a similar player.

Alonso didn't make the headlines like Torres and Gerrard but he was the one who manipulated the other teams into weakend position and while not always supplying the killer pass for a goal, did turn defence into attack and more often than not, put Liverpool on the front foot.

I wathched the game against Spurs and Gerrard kept having to come deep to collect the ball, which meant that Torres was left on his own far too often.

On the Torres observation, I've noticed that he's much more gobby this year too but I think it may go back to his comment a year or so, when he said that English defenders lack intelligence and could only kick him to stop him. This year, I think the defenders have made a mental note to show him just how rough they can be. He has been kicked from pillar to post in every Liverpool game I have watched.

[DJDonegal]

Didn't see any of the Man United - Arsenal game. Can't comment on any of the numerous moments it threw up.

I can only be disappointed with the result. And I believe that we can come back from this because it was, after all, at Old Trafford. They've still got to come to the Emirates and get their arses handed to them. :)

[Renasko]

I think Liverpool fans are praying that Aquilani avoids further injury and features strongly, this season. It'll be quite hard for the Italian. First season in the league and the expectancy already on his shoulders. I just hope he's been using his time out to assess some of the players he's likely to come up against in the EPL.