Pratchett II: The Wrath of Om

[Derfel Cadarn]

I loved Jingo too.

[frodostark]

Ok, Jingo was a bit of a disappointment. It's hard for me to say exactly why, but it just fell a little flat.

There was bound to be a bit of a letdown from the excellent Hogfather, but this was the first of the Watch books which didn't build and improve upon the previous one. The organizer reading off the alternate timeline was outstanding, but so much of the story and characterization felt forced instead of natural.

There are still some great moments, but as a whole it just didn't ring true to me.

Agree with this...it was good, but it was a bit off. The Last Continet is as far as I've read in the Discworld (I thought it would be terrible, but it was just so-so...the god of evolution being a big highlight) but the general impression I've gotten is that Jingo through The Last Hero is a pretty meh period for Pratchett, with a major revitalization around the time of Amazing Maurice and Night Watch.

[Independent George]

Agree with this...it was good, but it was a bit off. The Last Continet is as far as I've read in the Discworld (I thought it would be terrible, but it was just so-so...the god of evolution being a big highlight) but the general impression I've gotten is that Jingo through The Last Hero is a pretty meh period for Pratchett, with a major revitalization around the time of Amazing Maurice and Night Watch.

I just finished The Last Continent, and I agree - it was another step down from Jingo. I think I can now better explain why I thought those last two books were weaker than the others.

For me, the truly great Discworld novels are character driven. Sourcery is my favorite of the Rincewind novels not because it's an epic adventure, because it was the first time we really looked into who he is, and why he is. That scene where he tries (unsuccessfully) to build a tower in his sleep captures everything I love about Pratchett in just a few short pages. It's funny and sad and heartwarming all at once, and it's the first time we really get a glimpse at the pathos underlying Rincewind's life. Interesting Times did the same for both Twoflower and Cohen & the Silver Horde, and continued Rincewind's character development. The Last Continent falls flat because Rincewind's character seems to take a step backwards; he's back to being the Eternal Coward, and not a human being with his own internal motivations beyond surviving the next threat.

Jingo had some interesting ideas on the law and justice, but really never explored it in a convincing or meaningful way. It felt almost like a paint-by-numbers watch story; Vimes is a badass, Carrot is charismatic, Angua is a werewolf, Colon & Nobby are too dumb to die, Vetinari is the smartest man in the world. What, in the end, was it really about? That people in Klatch can be just as honorable (Ahmed), or as sinister (Cadram) as in Ankh-Morpork? That racism is stupid? That wars are tragic? In television terms, this just felt like a filler episode. It's not terrible, but felt like the cast & crew was just going through the motions because they were under contract.

I probably sound more harsh than I intended - I love Pratchett, and there's a reason I'm burning through these books so quickly. There are a few miscues here and there, but almost everything from Mort to Hogfather has been gold - that's really a pretty astonishing run. Really, the only things I didn't care for in that span was Eric, and the wizards subplot in Soul Music - one novella and one minor subplot out of 17 books in 10 years. That's pretty amazing.

[Gertrude]

I liked Jingo better on re-read and I'm not a huge fan of Rincewind or the wizards in general, so Lost Continent is not a favorite of mine.

[frodostark]

I just finished The Last Continent, and I agree - it was another step down from Jingo. I think I can now better explain why I thought those last two books were weaker than the others.

For me, the truly great Discworld novels are character driven. Sourcery is my favorite of the Rincewind novels not because it's an epic adventure, because it was the first time we really looked into who he is, and why he is. That scene where he tries (unsuccessfully) to build a tower in his sleep captures everything I love about Pratchett in just a few short pages. It's funny and sad and heartwarming all at once, and it's the first time we really get a glimpse at the pathos underlying Rincewind's life. Interesting Times did the same for both Twoflower and Cohen & the Silver Horde, and continued Rincewind's character development. The Last Continent falls flat because Rincewind's character seems to take a step backwards; he's back to being the Eternal Coward, and not a human being with his own internal motivations beyond surviving the next threat.

Jingo had some interesting ideas on the law and justice, but really never explored it in a convincing or meaningful way. It felt almost like a paint-by-numbers watch story; Vimes is a badass, Carrot is charismatic, Angua is a werewolf, Colon & Nobby are too dumb to die, Vetinari is the smartest man in the world. What, in the end, was it really about? That people in Klatch can be just as honorable (Ahmed), or as sinister (Cadram) as in Ankh-Morpork? That racism is stupid? That wars are tragic? In television terms, this just felt like a filler episode. It's not terrible, but felt like the cast & crew was just going through the motions because they were under contract.

I probably sound more harsh than I intended - I love Pratchett, and there's a reason I'm burning through these books so quickly. There are a few miscues here and there, but almost everything from Mort to Hogfather has been gold - that's really a pretty astonishing run. Really, the only things I didn't care for in that span was Eric, and the wizards subplot in Soul Music - one novella and one minor subplot out of 17 books in 10 years. That's pretty amazing.

Absolutely nailed it, agree with everything you said...

I do feel like saying a Pratchett is bad or disappointing is a bit misleading; for me, he's on a whole different scale than most, so his "bad" or "so-so" is still a heck of a good time.

[Independent George]

Just finished Carpe Jugulum, and all is right in the Discworld again. It started kind of slow - I just didn't find the genre-savvy vampires (or "vampyres") all that amusing, but it really picked up by the end. The one problem with this book is that you really didn't get a clear sense of the true horror behind the new Count's plans until you actually see it in Escrow, which made the early going a lot slower than in other books. Witches Abroad and Lords and Ladies really handled that horror element well, but the climax was all kinds of great. Granny Weatherwax's internal battle, plus the continued character development of Nanny Ogg, Magrat, and Agnes, made this very satisfying. I also rather enjoyed Oats - it's a nice callback to Small Gods, while still creating a character true to himself.

Plus, "I ain't been Vampired. You just been Weatherwaxed." was all kinds of awesome. Also, Lacrimosa and the reverse-Goth vampires.

[SkynJay]

Granny dumping out the cup of tea....Pure awesome.

[Galactus]

I'm not sure where I think Pratchett "Lost It" at some point after the Truth certainly, but the latter books have just been bad.

[The BlackBear]

I'm not sure where I think Pratchett "Lost It" at some point after the Truth certainly, but the latter books have just been bad.

It's got to be the dementia, he can't type the books himself, and that has to effect your ability to 'self-edit.' It is a real shame though.

[polishgenius]

I'm not sure where I think Pratchett "Lost It" at some point after the Truth certainly, but the latter books have just been bad.

Well, it was long after The Truth- my three favourite books of his are Night Watch, A Hat Full of Sky and Nation, and all three of them are later.

I'm sure the dementia affects him, but I think it's simplistic to blame any deterioration in his style purely on that (and also desperately unfair to say his books are all poor. It's variable, but Nation and I Shall Wear Midnight are both stellar for example).

Mind, I think Unseen Academicals is the only one I've really disliked. Snuff was a bit weaker, but it had its moments (he really needs to give Sam Vimes a retirement, and should have done after Night Watch really).

[Maester Llama]

I'm a big City Watch fan, but yeah, I think Vimes might be done -- though I give him longer than you do; I really like Thud. Snuff felt like it was really struggling to keep the character interesting, though, and it showed all the more out in the countryside, with only minimal involvement from the other Watch characters to run interference for Vimes' increasing stultification as a character and growing tendency to be the avatar of goodness and rightness on the Disc who everyone else should just listen to goddammit, which is kind of a satire killer.

I just finished Raising Steam and it's ... not bad. But I always find reading Pratchett's prose gut-level enjoyable, or almost always, even if I don't think the particular book is very good. [The exception is the very earliest stuff, with which I don't get along; I almost never came back to Pratchett after The Colour of Magic. Oh what I almost missed!] I find Raising Steam very talky, very lumbering and description-heavy in a way Pratchett didn't use to be, and -- rampant uneducated speculation time! -- I wonder if that isn't partially a side effect of dictation.

I also find one of the major new characters -- the engineer dude -- almost too admirable and squeaky-clean; the Discworld books have never been shy, in my limited experience, about pointing out admirable qualities in their characters, and I appreciate that, but those characters have also not usually been so wholly above satire. Even though the book is very much advocating communication and intelligent thought it feels a bit more truculent than is my usual experience of Discworld, like the narrative intelligence just can't muster the energy to have much sympathy for the people it sees as backward-looking asshats anymore. I still had a lot of fun with it; I don't think it's a disaster by any means -- and I found it picked up once it realized that what this story needed was more Moist von Lipwig. But I definitely feel like it continues Snuff's trend of not being nearly as light on its feet as the Discworld books of yore.

[Independent George]

Just finished The Fifth Elephant, The Truth, and the Thief of Time. That means I'm up to Night Watch. Oh boy, it's been so built up in my mind that I'm actually kind of nervous about it. My thoughts on those two books first.

The Fifth Elephant: I'm not sure how I feel about this. This was much better than Jingo, but I have a few issues that I'm not sure are fair to Pratchett. It was a good book, featuring some great world-building (and the Igors are completely awesome), but... I feel like this book was Angua's time to shine, and instead wound up being another Vimes book. I love Vimes, and understand why Pratchett keeps coming back to him, but given the setting, this book really should have been about Angua and Cheery. Instead, they're both mostly bystanders in the story. It was especially irritating to me when, after watching Wolfgang beat the crap out of Carrot, it's Gavin and Gaspode who charge after him while Angua stands by and does absolutely nothing. Gavin - who was fascinating in his own right - ends up being little more than a sacrificial lion.

That said, I know I'm basically complaining because it's not the book I wanted, instead of offering a true comment on the book I actually read. It actually is quite good on its own, but it's a little unsatisfying from those respects. I still love Vimes, but his character arc has reached the point that the Watch stories really need to change their focus. Vimes has brought the Watch to glory; now it's time for him to step back and let his personally-trained proteges be the coppers, while he handles the broader responsibilities of his office. We see some of that in the Fifth Elephant, but it still ends up being a Vimes book.

The Truth: It's nice to finally see meet a new set of characters. Not that I don't love Death, Granny, or the Watch (I can live without the Wizards), but there's always the struggle between expectation and delivery when it comes to much beloved characters (as illustrated in my own comments above). There is no such problem here, and it wound up creating one of the better books in the series. I love this ongoing steampunkish technology growth in Ankh-Morpork, but it would be meaningless without some truly excellent characters to take us through it. I really hope we get to see more of them - this was an excellent expansion of the Disc.

Thief of Time: Lu-Tze and the History Monks are just plain awesome. Seriously. It's damned hard to upstage Death, but they did it. Spectacularly (Remember Rule One!). I also loved the ongoing character development behind Susan (though, as is lampshaded early on, I actually wish we got more small talk between her and Death). Their relationship is one of my favorites in the series; that kind of warm parental bond is pretty rare in fantasy, and I wish we got to see more of it. That said, I was genuinely happy for Susan to find someone like Lobsang, and hope we get to revisit them together in the future. Myria/Unity got one of the single greatest death scenes ever, and the appearance of her shade made it possibly the only time I've ever been so happy to see a protagonist get killed. The only thing I don't like is the implication that someday, Death himself will retire so that Susan can take over (because I don't ever want to lose that cheeky bastard). But that seems to be the recurring theme - the longer he goes on interacting with humanity, the more human he becomes. Meanwhile, the more Susan gets involved, the less mortal she becomes. But even the gods change on the Discworld, and take on new roles. An anthropomorphic personification, by definition, will change as humanity's perception of him changes. Even Death gets a character arc.

[Datepalm]

Okay, I finished Raising Steam.

It's not that good. If you like trains, which I do, you'll probably find some of it interesting, but there's a linearity and didacticism to plotting and character that seems just wrong most of the time. It feels like a draft, at times it feels very dictated (meaning some of the prose around the dialogue sounds like someone talking outloud about the scene rather than how it would be written) and perhaps it really needed to be edited heavily, tightened with some things obscured, and other things foreshadowed better (in the manner of most discworld books). The book acts as a sequel to the the plot lines of The Fifth Elephant and Thud and of Going Postal and Making Money. But even though, after the first fifty pages, the book is completely about Moist von Lipwig, it never really feels like a book about him. I sort of wish that this book had followed up on The Truth, rather than Making Money, because the main character there is great, and a bit of distance from the center of events would have made the development of steam all the more interesting.

Additionally some of the world building seems a bit "what" within the novel. With Discworld you expect the worldbuilding to fit the novel, for example, the Susan books might be more victorian england and advanced than you'd expect in the Rincewind books, but you don't really expect the worldbuilding to be haphazard within the text of the novel. This book feels like that, with Pratchett moving all over the place and when he needs something to be just so for steam to work, well it happens and the world building shifts on a dime so that can work now. I mean, you need a huge infrastructure of coal and ore mining and smelting and on and on to develop alongside rail for the rails to be able to built and then it's just there overnight more or less. The beginning of the book is better at all this, often acknowledging these issues, but once the plot of the book is initiated around page 90 or so, then all this is pushed by the wayside for the plot. In a sense the book is similar to Moving Pictures or Soul Music, but no where near as good as either of those entries, it's perhaps most comparable to Monstrous Regiment but without that books charm. I think Pratchett broke a record for least funny discworld book ever.

And perhaps worst of all, Vimes doesn't seem very much like Vimes, ever in this book, nor does Vetenari. Even the Low King seems rather off from Fifth Elephant. Moist is totally flat and dimensionless for all that you're constantly being told lines didactic like, "Moist felt he was really growing and maturing as a person." Nobby and Colon come off okay, but they're the only ones.

Yeah, most of this. I've still got more than a third of the book to go, but i'm having such a hard time with it. Trains! A discworld book about trains! It's like Christmas on my birthday, if I particularly celebrated either of those things, I mean. And they're slightly sinister, dangerously alive trains, not some happy fluff - looking at you, Railsea! But the characterization is so bland and the book is so repetitive and didactic, I'm just not getting through it at all. And it's a shame, because Moist was really one of my favorite later characters. I was both thoroughly amused and honestly felt for him in Going Postal, here he's so bland.

Damn, I don't want to consign a discworld book to the unfinished tag.

[Jon AS]

Okay, good to see I'm not losing my mind with respect to Raising Steam (or at least I'm not the only one...). I have always torn through Pratchett novels, even the mediocre ones, but I got RS when it came out and am still not even halfway through. It just doesn't work for me, I can detect no plot thread that can truly hold my interest. And there's actually a ton of plots and subplots and character chameos going on, so shouldn't something jump out at me? But it just feels like Terry wanting to check in on every single Discworld character (I'm expecting Rincewind and the Luggage to make an appearance soon) instead of actually writing a novel.

[Datepalm]

I wouldn't mind Rincewind and the Luggage showing up at this point.

(I've always had a really soft spot for Rincewind though.)

[Jon AS]

I like Rincewind, too. While Mort was my first Discworld novel, I went to the Rincewind stories immediately afterwards (I think I only noticed on a later reread that he makes a brief appearance in that book). And Interesting Times was the first Discworld novel I read in English. Actually I think it was the first novel I read in English.

So definite soft spot there, and I wouldn't mind him showing up, it's just that I don't think I would particularly care about whatever he did in this story.

[Galactus]

A Hat Full of Sky and Nation, and all three of them are later.

I found A Hat Full of Sky to be so-so. It's not BAD but nothing spectacular, and Nation to be terrible.

EDIT: I guess that I generally find Pratchett more fun when he's just poking fun at stuff than when he's trying to say something himself: He often comes across as either trite or downright unpleasant.

[MinDonner]

How do they rise up, rise up, rise up?

*really looking forward to George's reaction to Night Watch*

[Independent George]

I'm going on less than 3 hours of sleep because I finished Night Watch at 3:30 AM last night, and just got home from work. I'll have more to say later, but for now... I just wish I could have gotten to know John Keel.

Oh, and one more thing:

You're not me, he thought. I don't think I was ever as young as you. If you're going to be me, it's going to take a lot of work. Thirty damn years of being hammered on the anvil of life, you poor bastard. You've got it all to come.

[alguien]

It's got to be the dementia,

Does Terry have dementia? As I understood it, he had a rare type of alzheimer's that affected certain types of visual processing, which is why he has to dictate instead of type, but cognitively, he's more or less OK. (aside from getting a bit older)