Anti-Feminist Anger

[Flyingfig]

What a bizarrely labrynthian argument all along.

So on one hand, feminists should pick carefully the battles because messaging is, like, 90% of the battle.

And yet, words, when viewed in isolation of context, are deemed to have no significant meanings.

What is messaging if not the use of words to persuade, to impress, and to shape how we think?

The bolded part seems like such a non sequitur to me. Especially being compared to politics as if tone and presentation of issues being more of what politics concerns itself with than the actual CONTENT of those issues has always been one of the virtues of politics. Because it seems like the posturing and and massaging of topics into nigh-meaningless "I'm for CHANGE," kind of "discussions" was one of the key frustrations in politics. Lemme see if I can find the thread in Literature that linked the George Orwell essay... here's the essay it linked at least: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

ETA: An especially relevant excerpt:

But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought. A bad usage can spread by tradition and imitation even among people who should and do know better. The debased language that I have been discussing is in some ways very convenient. Phrases like a not unjustifiable assumption, leaves much to be desired, would serve no good purpose, a consideration which we should do well to bear in mind, are a continuous temptation, a packet of aspirins always at one's elbow... [The] invasion of one's mind by ready-made phrases (lay the foundations, achieve a radical transformation) can only be prevented if one is constantly on guard against them, and every such phrase anaesthetizes a portion of one's brain.

[needle]

I would also say that I don't think I've actually ever thought in actual words

Really?

Umm. Anyone else who doesn't think in words? I'm not sure how to think without words. I'm serious, don't get that at all./end thread jack

Anway, all the canadian malarkey aside, wasn't the initial point of this thread to do with why there are so many people angry at feminists? We don't seem to have had all that many replies to that so far and I know there are plenty of people on this board who get angry with feminists all the time.. c'mon, step up and explain yourselves.

So far we've had :

'because they had a bad professor who talked about door opening instead of equal rights'

'because they talk about trivial stuff, and are not out campaiging the real issues'

'because feminists are whiny'

'Because they want equality for woman on some things, but still want to keep a privileged position on others'

'because they hate men.'

'because they think woman and men are different', and 'because they think men and woman are the same apart from cultural upbringing'

'Because we should be talking about gender equality (insert your own alternative phrase here), not feminism, as the name itself is exclusive

(I'm broadly paraphrasing here I know - not trying to judge any point of view , just trying to summarise any posts that dealt with the original topic.)

In the spirit of Stego's self examination thread, anyone else want to confess what about feminism really gets their goat? I'm genuinely curious. (And yes, there are areas of feminism that bother me too, and I'm sure that goes for feminists and non-feminists alike)

[kairparavel]

Feminists? Hm. I've never read a feminist blog in my life until I encountered this board. I never took a women studies course at school. My mother felt that feminists were a bunch of bra-burning radical man haters, which I think is a natural reaction of her generation/age, born in the 1940's and not really knowing any better. All I've gone on in life is me as a girl, growing into a woman, and what I want out of life, and what I feel is important to get that. But I've often been left to feel like that's not the right way to be living, as a woman. In fact, because I don't wholeheartedly agree with some ideas, I'm somehow wrong, in my feelings and needs. Two things I was taught early on as a heavy kid were that 'words can't hurt me' (sticks and stones, anyone? or how about I'm rubber, you're glue') and that 'actions speak louder than words'. Those two things have guided me through the past almost 39 years, and I'm certain they've been part of many other peoples lives. What matters to me is equal pay, non discrimination because I have the ability to have a child, the ability to not have said child, the ability to have my partner help me raise my child with paternity leave, the ability to stay at home and not work without being looked down upon, the ability to go to work and rise as high as my abilities let me without being a power hungry bitch etc etc etc. Once all these things are achieved, I can point to powers that be and say 'hey, seeing as how things are the way they are finally, let's update the documentation to reflect that'. It's what I know, working in the industry I did - the practice/methodology has changed, so you update the documents to reflect that. But I'm made to feel like that isn't the correct way. But it is, to me. It's what I want, as an individual woman. I would never once tell another woman, another person, how to think or feel, because their experience is not my experience, and I wouldn't/won't accept the other way around. We can discuss and we can disagree but still work towards the same bottom line, can't we? It just doesn't always feel like we can, because I'm not towing the company line.

On the anthem, now that the issue has been raised and can't be put back in the box, I can't tell if you're for changing it or against.

I sang O Canada before the start of school everyday. I sing it at sporting events, I sing it on Parliament Hill during Canada Day, I sang it during every medal ceremony at this Winter Olympics and I sang with three other people at RFD last Sunday afternoon. It fills me with such pride. So no, I don't get hung up on the words. I get caught up in the overpowering feeling of 'Fuck I love my country'. And unless you feel that kind of nationalistic pride while your anthem is played, I don't think you could understand any resistance to changing it. Of course it's ridiculous but it's like when I found out my mom started putting carrots in her spaghetti sauce or when my favourite brand of jeans changed the colour of their pocket stitching. The flavour of the sauce hasn't changed much, and I like carrots. The jeans still wear the same for the most part. But they aren't the way I've come to know them. So there's a part of me, that wants it to always be that way.

But, if for the greater good, changing it somehow brings around betterment, who am I to get in the way of that? So I'd learn to adjust, for the bigger picture. But I'd really like it to be the final reflection of how inclusive my country is. And if it changed tomorrow, or next week, or next year, it really wouldn't be that way. If we're going to talk about how important language is, it would make it disingenuous and I can't agree with it. Canada isn't currently standing on guard 'for all of us' thanks to cutbacks by the government, so why sing about a lie?

[Lord Mord]

CelticKnight,

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I haven't seen a single Canadian in this thread, or in real life, male or female, at the olympics or not, ever be offended by our anthem.

It's a non-issue.

Except for the people for whom it's not. Don't they count?

[Lord Mord]

Shryke,

It's probably because not many people really think a single word from a chant people chant so often they don't even think about the words most of the time is effecting anyone.

Actually, I think that a chant of that kind of pervasiveness, which has reached that level of depth you don't even think about it anymore, is all the more important a place in which to make a change.

If it is sexist, then I want people to think about it.

If it is sexist and people aren't thinking about it, it's all the easier to take a sexist outlook for granted.

The words do have power, and the less you think about the words, the more power they have over you to frame your experiences for you.

[CelticKnight]

CelticKnight,Except for the people for whom it's not. Don't they count?

Again, this is a Canadian issue, and I have not seen a single Canadian in this thread find this issue at all, even from the female perspective.

No one in Canada really cares, except maybe a minority of feminists like the person in the original link.

I didn't see or hear any single female olympic athlete complain about the anthem, and I would bet anything that when they sang it, it was with nothing else but immense pride to be Canadian.

Either way, this whole debate has gone in circles and the only thing that has happened from this is each side has reinforced their beliefs, as is usually the case with debates such as this.

[VarysTheSpider]

Really?

Umm. Anyone else who doesn't think in words? I'm not sure how to think without words. I'm serious, don't get that at all./end thread jack

I don't, not really. Probably sounds a bit stupid to you, but I think in pictures (well not really, but that's the best word I've got!). I'm a very visual learner, and have quite a shy internal monologue. I can look at a graph and understand it almost instantly, and never bother to think it through word by word until I have to, normally when I'm writing an email to a colleague.

Now I'm not an expert in linguistics by any means, but I wouldn't be too surprised that this happens - words surely can't pre-date thoughts, after all, though I have no doubt they shape how we think (or don't) about things.

[Serious Callers Only]

I don't even know what feminism is.

You people are weird.

*goes back to autistic dreamworld, while listening to "I'm in Miami bitch" by a bunch of idiots i don't even know the name of*

[turinturambar]

You know, the term Mother Earth greatly offends me. I think I should complain about it. Somehow it makes me feel excluded....I mean all we have is old MAN Winter. I guess men are just cold angry blowhards...not gentle or nurturing enough to be the protector of our planet.

[Mme Erzulie]

Language is intrinsically linked to the ability to abstract. Advanced thought is not possible without advanced language. You might believe you don't think in words, but you do. At least if you're thinking more complex thoughts than "food!", "sex!" and "danger!".

[VarysTheSpider]

You might believe you don't think in words, but you do.

I can certainly think of two words to say to this.

[The Evil Hat]

Feminists? Hm. I've never read a feminist blog in my life until I encountered this board. I never took a women studies course at school. My mother felt that feminists were a bunch of bra-burning radical man haters, which I think is a natural reaction of her generation/age, born in the 1940's and not really knowing any better. All I've gone on in life is me as a girl, growing into a woman, and what I want out of life, and what I feel is important to get that. But I've often been left to feel like that's not the right way to be living, as a woman. In fact, because I don't wholeheartedly agree with some ideas, I'm somehow wrong, in my feelings and needs. Two things I was taught early on as a heavy kid were that 'words can't hurt me' (sticks and stones, anyone? or how about I'm rubber, you're glue') and that 'actions speak louder than words'. Those two things have guided me through the past almost 39 years, and I'm certain they've been part of many other peoples lives. What matters to me is equal pay, non discrimination because I have the ability to have a child, the ability to not have said child, the ability to have my partner help me raise my child with paternity leave, the ability to stay at home and not work without being looked down upon, the ability to go to work and rise as high as my abilities let me without being a power hungry bitch etc etc etc. Once all these things are achieved, I can point to powers that be and say 'hey, seeing as how things are the way they are finally, let's update the documentation to reflect that'. It's what I know, working in the industry I did - the practice/methodology has changed, so you update the documents to reflect that. But I'm made to feel like that isn't the correct way. But it is, to me. It's what I want, as an individual woman. I would never once tell another woman, another person, how to think or feel, because their experience is not my experience, and I wouldn't/won't accept the other way around. We can discuss and we can disagree but still work towards the same bottom line, can't we? It just doesn't always feel like we can, because I'm not towing the company line.

This seems to pretty accurately sum up my (new) feelings on the subject, though without the "what I want as an individual woman" part, obviously.

As a kid, you hear these two words and if one had any conscious notion that the two words sounded different, it was probably squashed by the fact that in learning to spell them (giving you the mental image of the word as it's written) the first sound in both words is spelled the same. So we get this constant visual reinforcement that it's the same sound when they're actually, physiologically, linguistically different sounds. But we don't think about it as being different sounds because we literally don't see it as different sounds. Thus, written language affects how we think.

I suppose it's a fine example if we were all debating pronunciation, but no one's talking about the interplay between written and spoken language. I'm sure that there're a thousand examples of how language effects our thoughts, but this one's pretty irrelevant.

[TerraPrime]

You know, the term Mother Earth greatly offends me. I think I should complain about it. Somehow it makes me feel excluded....I mean all we have is old MAN Winter. I guess men are just cold angry blowhards...not gentle or nurturing enough to be the protector of our planet.

I suspect you are not serious about this. But in case you are, I agree with you. I think we should use gender-neutral terms when describing Earth. After all, quite a few animal species have males being in the nurturing role.

So if you do want to complain about it, I'll support you.

[Lord Mord]

CelticKnight,

Again, this is a Canadian issue, and I have not seen a single Canadian in this thread find this issue at all, even from the female perspective.

No one in Canada really cares, except maybe a minority of feminists like the person in the original link.

I don't understand. I asked you if the people for whom this isn't a "non-issue" count, and you didn't answer me.

What I see in what you wrote is a justification for saying the issue doesn't matter, but I'm not buying it. The only way it doesn't matter is if they're factually incorrect, or if their opinions somehow don't count.

If you can grant they count, and if you can't say they're incorrect, then why would you want to put down or anywise diminish their aims?

Okay, so there are plenty of people not speaking up on this. So what?. If the point is valid, it's valid now matter how many or how few it's valid. If you think the point is correct (if unpopular), why would your opinion change just because it is unpopular?

I mean, you can do what you want with your life, but if you just don't want to fight for this cause, can you at least bow out without knocking it?

I guess that's my only trouble, not with this debate, but with the opposition. If you don't care, then why are you at all invested in the conversation?

[Lord Mord]

TP,

I suspect you are not serious about this. But in case you are, I agree with you. I think we should use gender-neutral terms when describing Earth. After all, quite a few animal species have males being in the nurturing role.

So if you do want to complain about it, I'll support you.

That's just the androcentric tip of the iceberg.

It's also diminutizing to women -- if nature is a woman, she's necessarily a mother, because we all know that's the most feminine role a woman can play.

It's also an imputation against the stability of women, since nature is also generally thought of as unpredictable, unknowable, not especially reliable, and, when contravened for "no good reason" severe in temperament. Which, of course, is what we all know to be true of women.

It's also bad for our relationship with the environment to anthropomorphize all nature.

It's also sloppy thinking. What falls under the heading of "nature" anyway?

Hell, yes, I say let's make a change.

[TheKassi]

It's also diminutizing to women -- if nature is a woman, she's necessarily a mother, because we all know that's the most feminine role a woman can play.

No it is not, not if you grew up in the eighties and nineties.

If you are somewhere around thirty then being a woman means what the fuck you say it means. You can start out life brushing the hair of your dollies or ridding on the back of a rottweiler wielding a cardboard tube as a sword. You can climb trees in dresses or paint your toes in pants.

Or heck, you can do all these things. You can even invite G.I Joes to your tea parties, but not those stupid little plastic ones, the real G.I. Joes that were like a foot tall.

In your pubescent years you can rock out the goth look, wiggle into your hip hungers, paint on your jeans over your cowboy boots, hold up your skater pants with a belt twenty inches too long for you, or mix and match slash try them all and more.

When you move on to higher education you can experiment with lesbianism or bisexuality. You can bed hop your way around campus and strip for tuition money. You can marry your teen sweet-heart and drop out to raise a family, put off romance until you have free time, or just date and see what happens. Once again you can mix or match and or try all and more.

And finally when you are ready to decide what you are going to do with your life you can devote your life to building a comfortable home for you and your partner, you can say screw commitment and just have fun, you can put it all off for a career, you can start producing an entire horde of kidlets, or freaking build a harem of man slaves devoted to helping you juggle all of the above.

In short, you decide what is right for you, and anyone who decides it is unfeminine or not a woman's place can choke to death on their own bile and make the world a better place. Femininity, just like masculinity, is simply an aspect of humanity, and the defining characteristic of humanity is being what suits you best.

The term mother earth doesn't define me or what is expected from me anymore then old man winter defined my betrothed, and if someone wants to exclude me from their group because I in no way fit into a category that can be defined as nurturing or motherly, then thank god. My life is better off absent such bigoted narrow minded idiots and their silly dogma.

Anyway, that concludes my rant about being told what I should feel excluded, oppressed or defined by simply because my pubic area dimples instead of dangles. If you feel like you took both barrels in the chest I am sorry. Nothing personal, and I do not think you are a jerk or sexist or anything, that was just the spark to the silly rant, and well here we are.

[sologdin]

anti-feminism is really the cappies' fault, as usual. see, the february revolution, which oust0red the tsar, began because the female workers came out for the newly founded socialist holiday, international working women day (now simply international women's day, not observed officially in the US), then 23 february, which sparked a general uprising against the russian empire, leading to a general strike in st. petersburg. it all rolled uphill from there, leading to red october, the formation of the full soviet union, and the apotheosis of the great stalin.

the feminists, that is, began the communist revolution. suffice to say that real feminism is red feminism, and that is the reactionaries' true fear.

[Lord Mord]

TheKassi,

Anyway, that concludes my rant about being told what I should feel excluded, oppressed or defined by simply because my pubic area dimples instead of dangles. If you feel like you took both barrels in the chest I am sorry. Nothing personal, and I do not think you are a jerk or sexist or anything, that was just the spark to the silly rant, and well here we are.

No problem.

Most of what you said didn't apply to me, since I wasn't telling anyone what they should think.

[mormont]

You know, the term Mother Earth greatly offends me. I think I should complain about it. Somehow it makes me feel excluded....I mean all we have is old MAN Winter. I guess men are just cold angry blowhards...not gentle or nurturing enough to be the protector of our planet.

What about Father Time, then? ;)

[Imp]

I always thought earth was a mother because she birthed life, more than the whole nurturing thing.

I mean I guess you could change it to a man and have him crap life out. And hey some days that metaphor works for me too.