Calling all the kitchen knives aficionado

[Lord of Oop North]

That's really oversimplifying things there, Limecat.

I really don't think that it is. My backpacking experience tells me that I need to cook things to temperatures of greater than 165 F to kill most bacteria. Looking at my dishwasher manual, it says that the rinsing water is generally in the range of 120 - 130 F. I'm all in favour of multiple boards for multiple items, but I'm skeptical that plastic offers any real benefit over wood in a home environment.

[Bronn Stone]

I really don't think that it is. My backpacking experience tells me that I need to cook things to temperatures of greater than 165 F to kill most bacteria. Looking at my dishwasher manual, it says that the rinsing water is generally in the range of 120 - 130 F. I'm all in favour of multiple boards for multiple items, but I'm skeptical that plastic offers any real benefit over wood in a home environment.

Fish and red meat cooked to 165 degrees are inedible either way. Might as well eat your hiking boots.

[DemiNymph]

You don't need two boards. If you have any hang ups about cross contamination, then you might want two boards...maybe three... :P

I tell you, I am a complete noob at this. I have only cooked eggs and pancakes and instant noodles successfully my whole life. The responses here reminded me that meats decay fast in my environment (tropical country) so it may be a good idea to separate those with vegs. I tried to cook 2 salmon pieces in a pot a year ago... they turned out half raw even thou they were burnt outside, and it turned my pot all black. Had a hard time scrubbing. I still don't know why it happened. Maybe it's because I didn't use a grill like what I see in those cooking programs.

[TerraPrime]

I tell you, I am a complete noob at this. I have only cooked eggs and pancakes and instant noodles successfully my whole life. The responses here reminded me that meats decay fast in my environment (tropical country) so it may be a good idea to separate those with vegs. I tried to cook 2 salmon pieces in a pot a year ago... they turned out half raw even thou they were burnt outside, and it turned my pot all black. Had a hard time scrubbing. I still don't know why it happened. Maybe it's because I didn't use a grill like what I see in those cooking programs.

I don't think it'll hurt to have two cutting boards. Personally, I'll buy a rather cheap but serviceable plastic board for your raw meat cuts, and invest in a good quality wooden block for your non-raw meat. The plastic one you can replace every year, once it gets to be looking icky.

Also, I like plastic boards that have a rivet around the edge to catch any run-off raw meat juice that might come out during cutting.

(Totally not-professional advice here :P)

If you want to cook a piece of salmon, but do not have a grill, then you would want a pan (non-stick would help) of some sort. Cooking fish is tricky since overcooking can really kill the protein. The shape and thickness of your pieces will also affect cooking time a lot.

I'd say set a pan over medium high, but not high heat, and oil it up. The pan is ready when you start to see that the oil are "moving". Or you can stick a bamboo chopstick into the oil, and if you see air bubbles coming up then the pan is ready. Season your fish right before you cook it, then lay it skin side down into the heated pan. For generic piece of salmon, say about an inch thick at the thickest part, let it sear over medium high heat for 2 minutes, then cover the pan and reduce heat to medium and let it cook for another 2 to 3 min. Then open the lid and flip the fish over. Turn the heat back up to medium high, and watch it. When you press the meat and it does not feel "spongy" then it's done. Probably no more than 2 minutes at the most. When it's done, remove from pan, and poke at the thickest part with a sharp knife to check the center. If it is still just a little raw, then cover with tin foil for 5 min. The residual heat should finish the cooking.

[MercenaryChef]

Would you have separate pans and knives for cooking and prepping meats and non meats? If not then devote your time to one single wooden board that you keep fucking clean. argument over.

[Lord of Oop North]

Fish and red meat cooked to 165 degrees are inedible either way. Might as well eat your hiking boots.

Hah, true. I'm not saying that I do cook to that temperature, or even clean at that temperature. And I greatly doubt that the majority of people do, as well. Hence why I'm skeptical that plastic makes any difference at all. I also doubt that anyone cooks their meat in a separate pot, pan, or dish, either. So having only part of the process separated is kind of pointless and silly.

What do you have your water heater turned up to? I'm sure that 120 - 130 degrees in the dishwasher happens at the "standard, recommended" water heater setting. we have ours turned up to "scalding", since it's a 40 gallon tank for 3 people, one of whom (me!) likes to do a lot of laundry.

Don't have a water heater. It's tankless. :P

ETA: Damn. Beaten to it by the Chef.

[Shryke]

Would you have separate pans and knives for cooking and prepping meats and non meats? If not then devote your time to one single wooden board that you keep fucking clean. argument over.

You are like the House of cooking advice, you know that right?

[Bill Foote]

I really don't think that it is. My backpacking experience tells me that I need to cook things to temperatures of greater than 165 F to kill most bacteria. Looking at my dishwasher manual, it says that the rinsing water is generally in the range of 120 - 130 F. I'm all in favour of multiple boards for multiple items, but I'm skeptical that plastic offers any real benefit over wood in a home environment.

It's a combination of temperature, time and whatever other junk is involved (say antibiotics). Little hazy on exact numbers but something around 130F + some trace amount of anti-bacterial (EDTA or EDTH in soaps--read your labels) is fine for nuking standard food pathogens within a minute or so (outside mad-cow, but then that isn't standard). Of course this isn't to surgical standards, it takes serious effort to get things totally germ free.

If you're worried about germs, bleach is your friend (alcohol works too but is smellier). Dilute your store brought brand of bleach 10 or 20 times in water in a spray bottle, spritz down your food prep areas and clean board, wipe and let air dry. Or buy those stupid clorox wipes that do the same thing at 50x the cost :)

[Waldo Frey]

After three weeks of research and reading, I have come to the decision to buy the following items for my kitchen set. I must say this: your suggestions are extremely helpful and I am grateful for you people to take time to post in this thread.

I am going to order from this online company, CutleryandMore for the free shipping.

1. the Chef knife: Tojiro 8.25" Damascus blade for $120. The alternate is the Miyabi 8" knife for $100. The concern I have about this blade: it is designed by a celebrity, Miyabi Morimoto which sometimes a product like this may not be a successful design.

2. the Paring knife: Forschner 6-piece set for $23.

3. the Honing rod: Kyocera 9" ceramic rod for $23.

4. the Shears: Messermeister 8" scissors for $10.

5. the Block: bamboo block with 17 slots for $30.

6. the Cutting board: 18x12x1.25" end grain board for $30. There are boards made by bamboo but I like to know more about those boards before buying.

7. the Sharpening stone: stone/oil combo from Norton for $40. The alternate is the Wusthof sharpen stone for $40.

There is all to it for $276, plus tax.

Welcome for further suggestions.

[Mme Erzulie]

I just bought this, a 165 mm Warikome Santoku from the Japanese Knife Factory.

It was the cheapest one they had at £89, but it cut vegetables beautifully, and I'm not made of money.

The poor kid who showed me their Santoku knives (I gathered he was the proprietor's nephew) was so nervous that he dropped one of the knives and cut a gash in his finger. :dunno:

ETA: Thanks, MC! You (and this thread) are basically the reasons I decided to buy a proper knife. I hereby declare my knife collection opened!

[MercenaryChef]

that is a lovely looking knife! congratulations!

a good knife truly does help improve the cook.

currently I am starting to explore bladesmithes to create for me a custom knife. it appeals to me to own a blade of beauty and function that nobody else in the world possesses.

[Phostopheles]

That does look like a very nice santoku style knife, there.

By the way, never buy from Cutco, except maybe the shears. This is coming from one of their reps. It's a multi-level marketing scam, and those only work if they can prey on the ignorance of both the customers and the salespeople.

Let me set a few things straight:

The materials - "440 grade steel and a high density polymer capable of withstanding temperatures of 350 degrees, and it's machine washable" They actually use 440A steel, which is what you'll find in any average set of knives. The lower carbon content makes it stay shiny for longer, but it dulls quickly. Truly good knives use 440C steel, which retains an edge for much longer. The resin is nothing special...it still won't save your handle if you're stupid enough to leave your knife on the stove. The only benefit here is that resin is a lot more hygienic than wood, but there are still cases recorded of the resin melting in the dishwasher.

The design - "special double-D edge acts as 'protected' straight edge that cuts with the strength of a serrated edge but the cleanness of a straight edge, ergonomic handle allows thumb and forefinger to lock in place for more effective hand strength." The double-D edge isn't patented because it's a stupid idea. The whole point of serrated edges is to saw food; you shouldn't expect a clean cut from a serrated edge. All the double-D edge does is force a serrated edge on a knife that they insist works like a straight edge, which in turn means that you can't sharpen it yourself. More on this later. The ergonomic handle is really dependent on preference, though the reality is that a truly ergonomic grip would be very thick to more naturally fit the curve of the hand, and allow for more surface area for the palm (where the real power is) to apply pressure.

The perks - "Buying sets get you free stuff, all knives come with free lifetime replacement and sharpening." First off, the best knives aren't bought in sets. One company might be great at making paring knives, while another could make kickass chef's knives. At really high levels, the difference in quality is so slim that it does't really matter, but when we're talking Cutco-level quality...you can find better individual knives for much cheaper. Secondly, most of the knives, particularly the serrated knives, are fairly useless except for the most obscure occasions, and on those occasions could easily have their function replaced by a more common knife. So right now we're establishing that if you buy a set, it's for show, not because you particularly need "the best" knives for the job, nor that you are planning on actually using all of them. Add to this the fact that serrated knives, the knives cutco supposedly specializes in, CANNOT BE RESHARPENED, which forces you to check in with Cutco if you ever want a functioning utility knife again, which gives them more opportunity for selling you shit you don't need. To top it all off, barring serrated knives (which most professional chefs get by with only one or two anyway), GOOD KNIVES LAST YOU A LIFETIME IF YOU TAKE CARE OF THEM. I acknowledge that the average housewife/husband won't care too much about having the best knives ever, or about taking care of their knives, and that needing replacement is a very real possibility for an amateur chef. But for what you pay, you'd be better off getting Henckel's anyway and just footing forward a little extra for their lifetime guarantee as well.

And this is all purely from a product standpoint. Don't even get me started on how Vector treats its sales representatives. The only ones who succeed are either dishonest sleazebags or borderline retarded, as otherwise they wouldn't have such disgusting reverence for such a mediocre product. They snag college students with the promise of hourly wages, force them to buy a set for their demos, then tell them (essentially) that there is no base pay and that the only way to succeed is to start out at a very low commission rate and have demos with everyone they know and then force them to supply recommendations to "expand their circle." How it actually goes down, is that only the trust of parents, close relatives/friends, (and really only the financially well-off at that) is enough to get people to actually buy, and you get no recommendations because asking that is a really dick move. The commission rate isn't enough to offset gas rates, the sales rep gives up (probably still in the red), and Cutco has just sold several more knife sets and only had to pay a very small commission. The few college students who are pushy enough (or have enough rich friends) to rise to the higher commission rates say it's "because they don't work hard enough," but never once do they choose to acknowledge precisely how many hours a week, how many gallons of gas, and how many failed demos they put in every week. Huge confirmation bias going on there. Yes, you're making a grand a month more than your classmates, but you had to sell your soul and sanity to do it, and now after expenses and taxes would probably have made out just as well working at Burger King. Congratu-fucking-lations.

As an addendum, if you're buying solely to help out the rep, don't take the free stuff offered; it comes out of their paycheck. Actually, with as little as they make, it wouldn't hurt to just buy some cheaper knives and give them the rest of what you would have spent directly.

[BigFatCoward]

just got one of these for my birthday, isn't it beautiful? doesn't it make you think of valyrian steel.

http://www.kitchenknivesdirect.co.uk/acatalog/san_kyoto_tamahagane_knives.html

terrifyingly sharp. not to be used when i come home from the pub pissed.

[BigFatCoward]

double sorry. is anybody else finding this happening more and more recently?

[Mme Erzulie]

I think it might be the fact that nothing seems to happen for a few seconds when you hit 'reply', so people assume that they missed it, and hit it again.

The little wait is weird, it never used to happen, but now it always does.

Is it the boards seven second delay?

*has wardrobe malfunction*

[ztemhead]

after reading this thread I had a dream about knife shopping. It was reminiscent of the scene in Altered Carbon where Kovacs goes shopping at the gunsmith.

[TerraPrime]

after reading this thread I had a dream about knife shopping. It was reminiscent of the scene in Altered Carbon where Kovacs goes shopping at the gunsmith.

Tine for a new sleeve already?

[Nukelavee]

Beyond the quality of the steel, you need a knife that feels right in your hand, too.

Used to work for a butcher supply wholesaler, where I picked up a little knowledge on knives, and spices. Not a lot, mind you, but some.

Customers tended to go for either Henckles, or Victorianox (basically, Swiss Army manufacturer). Henckles tended to cost more than the Vic's. With Henckles, make certain you check where they are made, not all come from Germany, and many of the liscenced ones use cheaper steel.

I always wanted one of those ceramic blades, just because.

It was disturbing to be selling knives and saws to the local hospital for autopsies...

[Ealasaid]

My son who is a fan of all things Japanese - well almost, gave me a set a Shun knives for Mother's Day. I did not know anything about them.

They are wonderful. The old knives seem like dull sticks compared to these.

I did keep one odd little paring knife that I do not know from whence it came. But it has never been sharpened in the ten years I know that I have it. Funny little thing.

[Salome the Persian Witch]

My hubby is a blade enthusiast - he's all about the "full tang" - and even had a blacksmith create his own specialized sword. Even as a child, he would be dragged to the trade shows with his parents, and had to stop and watch the kitchen knives demonstrations a la Ron Popiel!

I love our Henkels, but am embarrassed to say that when the neighbour kid came by to do a "cutco" demonstration, that we bought pity pruning sheers... :blushing: