casual instances of controversal character flaws

[Poobah]

I mean, it really kind of bites that Westerners cannot be bothered to distinguish between Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, Taiwanese, etc., when we do so for Germans, French, etc. all the time, much less the Native tribes, but we can do better than freaking Indian or Oriental. If there are just too many Asians for you, than do as we do over here and talk about East Asians and South Central Asians.

Well, honestly, I doubt I could tell a french guy by sight, unless he was wearing a blue and white turtle-neck and a beret. The French look pretty similar to the English anyways since we kept invading each other. I mean I can tell the difference between a Scandinavian and a Greek, but I probably couldn't narrow it down any closer then "Scandinavian" or maybe "Eastern European" for a different subset of people - which is pretty much as accurate as I'd be being with the label "Oriental". I wouldn't walk up to anyone and say "hey oriental guy" any more than I'd say "oi, black dude" which is why I originally stipulated "if I were asked to physically describe..." since that's the only instance where I think what someone looks like should be at all relevant.

[sologdin]

"average American"

also a fuckwit term, if used to suggest citizens of the united states.

[Guest Raids]

It's just a broad racial description for "east Asian", which exists in part because there's no equivalent of calling someone "white" or "black" for east Asians ("yellow" has very negative connotations).

I don't get this. No, it's not. Asians are people who live on the Asian land mass. East Asians are people who live on the east part of the Asian land mass. Orientals are people who live to the east of Europeans.

Also, you might have noticed that Asian people are not actually yellow. Nor are Native Americans red. And we have never associated Arabs or Latinos with any particular color. Alas, that so many people are brown and it does not suffice to use simple color words! Come on.

Don't you care that it's offensive to Asians to be called "Oriental?" Look, think about it like this - in GB, "Asian" means Indian or Pakistani because Indians and Pakistanis are 3.4% of the population. Conversely, only .8% of the population consists of East Asians, and so you say "Oriental" actually meaning "more exotic" which is one of the very reasons why it is an offensive term!

In the U.S. we have more than twice as many people of Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, Vietnamese and Korean ancestry as we do of Indian and Pakistani heritage, and I believe we have more people of Filipino heritage in the U.S. than Indian and Pakistani also. So, when we say "Asian" we mean of Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, Vietnamese, and Korean ancestry. If I want to talk about someone Indian or Pakistani, I would actually describe them as Indian or Pakistani. I would not use some term historically adopted by colonists to refer to the colonized that marks them as the Other.

It looks bad to people from other countries, particularly given the history of GB with the region.

[Old Nan]

It's about as correct as saying "Indian" to refer to Native Americans.

Are there actually people who use the term "native American" in real life? I can't think of any I've ever met–certainly not any Indians, who universally seem to prefer "Indian".

I would not use some term historically adopted by colonists to refer to the colonized that marks them as the Other.

I'm quite amused by the way Wikipedo goes about naming articles, and it always seems to come down to the politics of the editors. F'rinstance, Bombay is Mumbai, Zaire is the Democratic Republic of the Congo, but Myanmar is always Burma. Because... I guess it's insulting to the rulers of Myanmar to use the colonial name, or something, and an "encyclopedia" which flaunts its "neutral point of view" is the proper place for activism.

[Analu]

I always find the word 'oriental' being controversial odd because over here (in England) it's not considered in any way offensive and is pretty much a normal way to distinguish East Asians from Pakistanis and Indian people, which is what people would think of if you just said 'Asian' here.

I'm half-Asian and have no problem with the term "Oriental".

Where I'm from, pretty much everyone is casually racist, in a joking sort of way. We get on each other all the time, and no one ever gets offended or thinks the other is being serious and is racist. We have terms for almost nationality: haoles, pakas, flips, yobos, popolos, hapas. I've been called just about every name there is. Hell, we have a tourist spot where I live called "Chinaman's Hat". I had no idea "chinaman" was an offensive term until a couple years ago. It's something that always amuses me about mainlanders: how touchy they get about stuff like this.

Anyways, I don't get bothered by racist characters in books. It's never crossed my mind to stop reading a book because of that. The only time I stop reading books is when the book really sucks. Or if I forget to leave a bookmark and don't remember where I left off. Sometimes I'll start reading a book, then 100 or so pages in, I realize that I already read it years ago. I'm kinda forgetful like that.

[Guest Raids]

I've been to Chinaman's Hat.

Analu, I'll be honest - it is weird to be in Hawaii as a white American for that reason. It is weird that - if memory serves - juries have mandated racial makeups, which is illegal in the rest of the United States.

I think if you lived in a majority white European part of the world you might feel differently. On the Hawaiian islands, it is probably just a funny oddity, much like white people feel about called a haole. I can't make myself get offended over that one either.

ETA: Hawaii is such a freaking cool place. I wish I could move there. I'd do it in two seconds.

[Grack21]

Are there actually people who use the term "native American" in real life? I can't think of any I've ever met–certainly not any Indians, who universally seem to prefer "Indian".I'm quite amused by the way Wikipedo goes about naming articles, and it always seems to come down to the politics of the editors. F'rinstance, Bombay is Mumbai, Zaire is the Democratic Republic of the Congo, but Myanmar is always Burma. Because... I guess it's insulting to the rulers of Myanmar to use the colonial name, or something, and an "encyclopedia" which flaunts its "neutral point of view" is the proper place for activism.

I know several Native Americans in real life who would clock you one if you called them Indians.

[Guest Raids]

That would definitely include my Native American professor of my Native American history class and my Native American professor of my Constitutional Law class who was formerly the Chief Justice of the Saginaw Chippewa Tribal Court. Note their webpage also says "Indian." It's a paradox. Partly it's still around because it is still the official legal terminology, so "Indian" is part of the legal tribal name.

[Liadin]

So, when we say "Asian" we mean of Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, Vietnamese, and Korean ancestry. If I want to talk about someone Indian or Pakistani, I would actually describe them as Indian or Pakistani. I would not use some term historically adopted by colonists to refer to the colonized that marks them as the Other.

"South Asian" works well.

I'm quite amused by the way Wikipedo goes about naming articles, and it always seems to come down to the politics of the editors. F'rinstance, Bombay is Mumbai, Zaire is the Democratic Republic of the Congo, but Myanmar is always Burma. Because... I guess it's insulting to the rulers of Myanmar to use the colonial name, or something, and an "encyclopedia" which flaunts its "neutral point of view" is the proper place for activism.

Hadn't noticed that, but it does seem unfortunate. How this is meant to harm the ruling party in some way, rather than just disrespecting the entire country, I have no idea.

[Old Nan]

Yeah, academics are what I was standing "real life" against. There are plenty of people in academia who use all kind of odd terms religiously and get unbelievably offended at the drop of a hat. Some of them get TV spots and book deals, to be sure. And I'm sure it's possible there are plenty of people not in academia who would get violent about getting called an Indian; I'm just saying I've never met one. The three or four Indians I've known use the term "Indian" freely, just like white and black people do. Not sure I've ever heard an Asian of any stripe speak about the 'first nations' people either way.

[Spring Bass]

I don't get this. No, it's not. Asians are people who live on the Asian land mass. East Asians are people who live on the east part of the Asian land mass. Orientals are people who live to the east of Europeans.

I'm just pointing out why it's used.

Also, you might have noticed that Asian people are not actually yellow. Nor are Native Americans red. And we have never associated Arabs or Latinos with any particular color. Alas, that so many people are brown and it does not suffice to use simple color words! Come on.

I'm not defending it, Raids, just pointing out that that's the reason why we do it - it's part of the simplistic racial scheme. Or did you also notice that white people aren't actually white-skinned (except albinos), and black people are actually brown-skinned?

Don't you care that it's offensive to Asians to be called "Oriental?" Look, think about it like this - in GB, "Asian" means Indian or Pakistani because Indians and Pakistanis are 3.4% of the population. Conversely, only .8% of the population consists of East Asians, and so you say "Oriental" actually meaning "more exotic" which is one of the very reasons why it is an offensive term!

Don't put words in my mouth. I just said that in the US, it's a shorthand racial description for east Asians, like "white" or "black".

In the U.S. we have more than twice as many people of Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, Vietnamese and Korean ancestry as we do of Indian and Pakistani heritage, and I believe we have more people of Filipino heritage in the U.S. than Indian and Pakistani also. So, when we say "Asian" we mean of Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, Vietnamese, and Korean ancestry. If I want to talk about someone Indian or Pakistani, I would actually describe them as Indian or Pakistani. I would not use some term historically adopted by colonists to refer to the colonized that marks them as the Other.

I use "Middle Easterner" or "Arab", "Central Asian", "South Asian" (referring to Pakistanis and Indians), and "East Asian".

Are there actually people who use the term "native American" in real life? I can't think of any I've ever met–certainly not any Indians, who universally seem to prefer "Indian".

It's the official term, and I usually use it.

There's also the term "Indigenous", although you don't see that used much in the US. I think it's more common in Mexico, with the term Indigenos or the like.

[Lord O' Bones]

When you say "other than people keep telling us it should be", by "people", do you mean Asians, the subject of the label, and by "us", do you mean white people? Because I do have a problem with people outside a racial group telling people within a racial group what they should or shouldn't perceive as racist.

Well yeah, but I think for the most part the first time a white person is told that Oriental is insulting they are surprised and have to do some research to figure out why. If they meant to be assholes they'd say something far more obvious.

But as I said, I consider Oriental an anachronism rather than a slur. I DIDN'T say in my editing comments that the word Oriental was racist. I said that it was not the preferred term for Asians. What I found to be racist was that the author basically responded that it was unimportant what Asians wanted to be called, what was important was what white Americans preferred.

Ironically, he just supported his assertion that this could be a natural trait for a white American character in a novel.

ETA: Oh I think we're talking about two separate things at the same time anyway. What he thought wasn't a flaw and was normal American behavior was the racist gesture that the character made. To me, this is very different from acknowledging that you've written a character who has the flaw of being racist.

I can think of only one gesture and if so yeah that should be beyond the pale. Unless you know the person you're fucking with (and anyone else in eyeshot) really, really well.

Where I'm from, pretty much everyone is casually racist, in a joking sort of way. We get on each other all the time, and no one ever gets offended or thinks the other is being serious and is racist. We have terms for almost nationality: haoles, pakas, flips, yobos, popolos, hapas. I've been called just about every name there is. Hell, we have a tourist spot where I live called "Chinaman's Hat". I had no idea "chinaman" was an offensive term until a couple years ago. It's something that always amuses me about mainlanders: how touchy they get about stuff like this.

I think it could have something to do with Hawaii's relative demographic balance. At least as far as being the only place I'm aware of that "Asians" and "whites" seem to be relatively equal as well as internally diverse.

[Guest Raids]

Sorry, GB, that was the general "you" not you in particular, but I can definitely see how you read it that way. Apologies, truly.

But I am just pointing out the historical context in which the term - and the criticism of it - developed, and in that context, and given Edward Said's background, Brits are the last people who should really be using that term.

That being said, TAA (for those with short memories: The Average American) has no idea that Oriental is offensive, either, it's true. But the average Asian, IMHO, does.

And I'll state again how awesome Hawaii is that way - when there is relative racial balance, people just don't take the time to get worked up over this stuff, and that is, truly, a beautiful thing. OTOH, ask Obama about being black in Hawaii.

[Analu]

Analu, I'll be honest - it is weird to be in Hawaii as a white American for that reason. It is weird that - if memory serves - juries have mandated racial makeups, which is illegal in the rest of the United States.

Interesting. I didn't know that. But I haven't been to jury duty in a while. Last time I went, I had the lady asking the prescreening questions laughing by answering all her moral/ethical dilemmas with "I'd just convict the haole every time" =p

ETA: Hawaii is such a freaking cool place. I wish I could move there. I'd do it in two seconds.

You should. Then maybe I'd finally get to meet someone on this board =)

I think it could have something to do with Hawaii's relative demographic balance. At least as far as being the only place I'm aware of that "Asians" and "whites" seem to be relatively equal as well as internally diverse.

You're probably right. Hawaii's a big melting pot. I always wondered when tourists would come up to me and genuinely be curious about my ethnic makeup, like it was a big deal or something. Wasn't until I went to the mainland that I realized whoa, there's a shit-ton of haoles in the US. Haha

[Mad Monkey]

I think the best way to judge cases like this is according to the John Ringo Index of Protagonist Douchebaggery, a scale of 0.0 (Perfectly Pure Pureness) to 100.00 (Unbearable Fuckfaceness).

[polishgenius]

Which is precisely the problem with Oriental. It defines the group by their relationship to Western Europeans (who do not call themselves Occidentals, FYI). It's tied to the word "orientalism." Edward Said personally put the last nail in the coffin of this word back in the 1970s. It's about as correct as saying "Indian" to refer to Native Americans.

Wait, what? What's the difference between using the word Eastern and Oriental? They mean the same thing. Sure it does have a connotation of exoticism but that's because people thought and really still do that them places are cool and trendy, how is that in any way derogatory? For whatever reason it's become less acceptable in the US but this side of the pond it just doesn't have those negative connotations, no matter how much Edward Said wrote on the subject.

I mean, it really kind of bites that Westerners cannot be bothered to distinguish between Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, Taiwanese, etc., when we do so for Germans, French, etc. all the time, much less the Native tribes, but we can do better than freaking Indian or Oriental. If there are just too many Asians for you, than do as we do over here and talk about East Asians and South Central Asians.

Yeah, no-one ever uses the term "European" or "Caucasian" or whatever when they're generalising or not sure. It's not as if we go round calling every Chinese or Japanese place or person Oriental, just that the term sometimes comes up and isn't in any way offensive here. And the whole 'stop calling people a name they don't want' thing is just blinkered against the fact that they often use it themselves. Go into Chinatown in London and a good proportion of restaurants and shops will be labelled some variation on Orient or Oriental.

I mean, I wouldn't use the word in America coz I know it's rude, but you're getting worked up over nothing at all. It just doesn't... It's not offensive here. At all. It's not blinkeredness or rudeness or bloody-minded insistence, it just isn't.

In a similar way I'd imagine to the word spastic or spaz being entirely benign in America but hugely offensive in this country. It's just something that happens after a couple of hundred of years of parallel evolution.

[williamjm]

Hadn't noticed that, but it does seem unfortunate. How this is meant to harm the ruling party in some way, rather than just disrespecting the entire country, I have no idea.

I seem to remember reading some media organisation's justification for continuing to use Burma rather than Myanmar, they said it was partially because many of the opposition figures in the country, including Aung San Suu Kyi prefer to continue to use the name Burma because they don't recognise the legitimacy of the military regime that changed the name. It doesn't seem disrespectful to a country to listen to the winner of its last democratic elections rather than a bunch of military dictators.

[Galactus]

It defines the group by their relationship to Western Europeans (who do not call themselves Occidentals, FYI).

Arabs DO call us occidentals occasionally, though. And besides, "oriental" isn't really in respect to western-europeans: If anything it's based on greek conceptions.

[MinDonner]

I mean, I wouldn't use the word in America coz I know it's rude, but you're getting worked up over nothing at all. It just doesn't... It's not offensive here. At all. It's not blinkeredness or rudeness or bloody-minded insistence, it just isn't.

Exactly. British English is not American English, and Raids, it would be appreciated if you stopped lecturing us on the nuances of a language you don't even speak.

ETA: And enough with the "especially you Brits" bullshit too.

[TrueMetis]

I know several Native Americans in real life who would clock you one if you called them Indians.

I know some who would crack you for calling them Native Americans, here they are First Nations. Though Indian is still sometimes used. (If only because they haven't changed the names of a few parts of the government) Of course even worse would be to call an Inuit an Eskimo, you'd get fucked up by a lot of people for doing that.