The Heroes - Spoiler Edition

[polishgenius]

Can I just point out that The Bloody-Nine isn't Logen's Named Man name, if we're going by the same forms everyone else uses? That's Ninefingers, Bloody-Nine is an extra one on top of that because he's

Also, does Black Dow strike anyone as the opposite of Ninefingers, or the person Logen wanted to be? Whereas Logen spent all his time trying to be good while hiding his evil, Black Dow spent all his pretending to be evil but does a lot of things that are... well, good, in the context, and is a straighter edge than a lot of 'straight edges'. Even turning on Logen was because he thought he'd wreck the North.

I was flicking through the trilogy and came across his Words for Tul Duru Thunderhead. They made me sad. :(

[Lord O' Bones]

Can I just point out that The Bloody-Nine isn't Logen's Named Man name, if we're going by the same forms everyone else uses? That's Ninefingers, Bloody-Nine is an extra one on top of that because he's

I'm assuming you cut yourself off mid-sentence because you read back a few posts? :lol:

[polishgenius]

<_<

I'm having one of those days.

[MinDonner]

That's a point - do Bethod and Scale even have Named Men names? Those seem just like normal names to me. <_<

(well OK, Scale might have some meaning, but Bethod's just syllables).

ETA: Black Dow I've never been sure about. I know I'd kind of like to think he's a bit more decent than his bastard exterior shows, but really, not much. For all his "Oh the lonely heights of command" schtick in private, he did play on his nasty side a lot more than was necessary, like his taunting of Calder in the circle.

[unJon]

At the end of the book, it's Scale Ironhand. So even if Scale is not his Name, name, he gets one in the end. Happy endings for all!!!

[polishgenius]

It does seem odd that Beck gets one after one 'feat' no-one saw whereas Scale had years of heroics before he lost a hand and got his.

[mjgambino]

I can't remember, but did we ever find out what Shivers' real name was in the original trilogy or BSC?

[MinDonner]

Maybe having more than one Name isn't as uncommon as all that, then, and occasionally people get gifted with an extra one. After all, Whirrun of Bligh has that name as well as Cracknut Whirrun... :dunno:

[Rorshach]

At the end of the book, it's Scale Ironhand. So even if Scale is not his Name, name, he gets one in the end. Happy endings for all!!!

Well, Ironhand is more a nick than a Name, IMO.. having had his original hand cut of by a castrati (voicewise, anyway), he probably replaced it with something he needed - a heavy object to bludgeon people with ^_^

[Lord O' Bones]

I can't remember, but did we ever find out what Shivers' real name was in the original trilogy or BSC?

Caul

[lessthanluke]

Just finished it. Thought it was great. Not much to add to the discussion really.

[kungtotte]

I can't remember, but did we ever find out what Shivers' real name was in the original trilogy or BSC?

His real name is Caul (the son of Rattleneck).

[Voland]

Yeah, that was my thinking. I think Gorst was born that way, and if not I don't remember how he got it (I doubt he'd be so embarrassed if it was a wound)- I just thought that seers aren't ever straightforward and having a chicken-bone caught in his throat seemed a good metaphor for Gorst's pitch problems.

Iirc it was in reference to Craw. Whirrun would be shown his destiny by a man with a bone stuck in his throat. Craw had a chicken bone stuck in his throat the first time he met Whirrun. It was how he got his name.

[Sheep the Evicted]

Also, does Black Dow strike anyone as the opposite of Ninefingers, or the person Logen wanted to be? Whereas Logen spent all his time trying to be good while hiding his evil, Black Dow spent all his pretending to be evil but does a lot of things that are... well, good, in the context, and is a straighter edge than a lot of 'straight edges'. Even turning on Logen was because he thought he'd wreck the North.

I was flicking through the trilogy and came across his Words for Tul Duru Thunderhead. They made me sad. :(

Nah, nice as it would be for Dow to be good i really don't think he is. People aren't static, it seems he isn't as gruesome as he was when he was younger (the whole ill do things in the circle like I used to schtik) but he is still pretty evil. Not pure evil ofcourse, not to the point where he can't say good things about people he likes, but still pretty damn dark. Hanging and burning all those corpses in the high places ? Burning people now ? They only follow him because they fear him.

Here's something I have been thinking about. Was it Logen that beat the champions of the North or was it the Bloody Nine. I can't imagine them hurting him as badly as they did if he was the Bloody Nine but i can't exactly see the Bloody Nine being merciful either.

Here's another thing Logen must be in his fifties now right ? Even if he is alive he will no longer be the unholy beast he was, the Bloody Nine might be, but the vehicle that carried that demon about, and Ninefigers really was exceptional even without the Bloody Nine, no longer will be. We know Logen felt trapped by all the blood on his hands and we know he spent most of his life building his own legend could be he decided to end it on a bang rather than the old guy comes back and gets slaughtered by the younger, fitter named men that will no doubt be gunning for him.

[polishgenius]

Iirc it was in reference to Craw. Whirrun would be shown his destiny by a man with a bone stuck in his throat. Craw had a chicken bone stuck in his throat the first time he met Whirrun. It was how he got his name.

It definitely referred to his death, though, and Whirrun thought so too since he died thinking it was bollocks. There was an awkward pause when Whirrun found that out, but I thought it was, like I say, too obvious for a fortune teller.

For the people saying 'Caul'- I don't think mjgambino was asking what his name is, but whether it was mentioned before this book. I don't think it was in the trilogy but it must have been in BSC, surely?

[lessthanluke]

It definitely referred to his death, though, and Whirrun thought so too since he died thinking it was bollocks. There was an awkward pause when Whirrun found that out, but I thought it was, like I say, too obvious for a fortune teller.

For the people saying 'Caul'- I don't think mjgambino was asking what his name is, but whether it was mentioned before this book. I don't think it was in the trilogy but it must have been in BSC, surely?

I had definitely seen "Caul" before this book.

[MinDonner]

Shivers's second chapter in BSC, we get his name as part of a short backstory reminiscence.

Caul Shivers. Rattleneck's son. A Named Man who'd faced death in all weathers. Who'd fought beside the biggest names in the North (etc etc)

[kungtotte]

HIS NAME WAS CAUL! Let me illustrate it for you:

Beck -> Red Beck

Caul -> Caul Shivers

As to Whirrun of Bligh: He was told by Shoglig that he would be shown his destiny by a man with a bone in his throat (Craw), he was told the time and manner of his death. It doesn't say or mean that he will be killed by a man with a bone in his throat, or a man with a funny voice. It means that he needs to follow Craw (bone-throat) in order to find his supposed destiny.

As to Logen Ninefingers: He "always" had The Bloody-Nine as part of him. At one point he's discussing it and said that he killed one of his friends in a murderous rage when he was a wee lad (early teens) and didn't even remember what had happened. This was long before the Shanka burned his home and he came down over the mountains with the Dogman. It wasn't until he lost his finger at Carleon (in another fit of Bloody-Nineness) that he was Named (Ninefingers), and the Bloody-Nine epithet obviously came after this but there's no telling how long apart it was. Also he probably beat most (all?) of his opponents in the Circle by being the Bloody-Nine. Hell, Harding Grim shoved a spear through his guts and it barely slowed him down.

Being The Bloody-Nine doesn't mean he doesn't get hurt, it just means getting hurt doesn't slow him down. Read the scene with him and Ferro being chased by the Practicals, or him duelling the Feared, there are clear descriptions of him being wounded and just not giving a fuck.

As to Black Dow: I think he suffered the same fate that Logen did, being trapped by his own reputation. Regardless of what he actually wanted to do, he had to act a certain way because of his reputation and his history. I get the feeling that he thought he could relax a little bit, be a bit less of an evil bastard, but realised that when you carry a Name like Black Dow and the reputation that goes with it you also have to live up to it.

[Seli]

To me one of the interesting things in the book was Calder realizing how important these reputations are in the North. And then being smart enough with enough self-knowledge to realize he could not embody the role a leader in the North needs to play. I think this realization, more than the love for Scale, was what prevented him from taking the throne for himself.

[jurble]

The one problem I see with Joe's books, is that they're so self-contained, and most things can be figured out from context. There's no big mysteries. Like, the nearest thing is "Did Bayaz kill Juvens?" and even there, the answer is 90% yes. "Is Logen alive?" that's a good question, but it's irrelevant, it's been 9 years. He's in his 50's now. If he's alive, why would he be relevant to the story? He's kept quiet for nearly a decade.

The only real mystery, imo, is whatever happened to the spirit-talking brother? Juvens is dead, the Maker is dead, Glustrod or whatever (the demon powers one) is dead, but that last brother just sorta disappeared. Maybe he's Logen's great-great-great-great-great^10-grand-daddy? The Art and Making are apparently taught, but Logen was apparently just born with the power to speak to spirits.