The Heroes - Spoiler Edition

[unJon]

I thought this was a great book. Joe's craft keeps improving. And he does happy endings surprisingly well, which was a pleasant surprise. Almost all of the endings had a nice circularity, tying them back to the opening chapters: Craw and Halfbread; Finree thinking about love and her husband, etc.. The characters were all very fleshed out and well down. Flawed all around. I was even starting to like Dow.

I also liked Joe's technique of telling some of the battle chapters through the use of skipping POVs: first day following the killer of the last POV; second day following the order to the soldiers in the bog; and third day based on people spying on the last POV. Clever, but not 'take-you-out-of-the-story' clever.

Is it just me, or did anyone else get the impression that Bayaz was eating human flesh in the dinner scene with Calder? Neither Bayaz nor Sulfur specified the type of meat. Also I could be misremembering, but at one point I thought Bayaz told Sulfur to give the money to the plumber? The reference must be to Deep/Shallow, but it seems anachronistic.

[Lord O' Bones]

Is it just me, or did anyone else get the impression that Bayaz was eating human flesh in the dinner scene with Calder?

I definitely had cause to wonder.

[Ski the Swift]

The thought that he was eating human flesh didn't even occur to me. Although I did pick Deep as being Bayaz's man earlier on. One thing I really liked with what Joe did was the Marshall Kroy character and how much he had progressed since the end of TFL series and his backbone even against Bayaz when calling for peace. It's good to know that not all officials are spineless fuck ups.

[The hairy bear]

I absolutely loved the book. Perhaps not as much as BSC, but still it was a very fun read.

That said, I agree with those saying that Abercrombie's getting soft. All six POV's surviving, Beck getting back to his mother (and eveng returning her back the coat!), Calder surviving and then steping down for her brother, Gorst back as the king's bodyguard, Finree escaping rape when prisoner, Calder's wive returning to him, the Brocks made governors of Angband and Dogman a great landlord in the North... in fact most of the turns surprised me because I expected much worse!

One think that still bothers me, though, is the fact that we haven't learned what was the deal with Bethod and the Shanka, and the sorceress that accompanied him back in TBI. I had hoped that one of Calder's POV would have shed some light into this.

[Sheep the Evicted]

I think I'm going to have to reread this in a couple of weeks. Lucky me!

For instance where did Yoru go and why did Calder think he saw him before ? There must have been a hint but I missed it.

Also homages. I caught the Godfather 2 wait until she's dead the baby is born. And the Hound Dog with the burnt face. But there must have been some more. What else ?

[Imagica]

Actually, the majority of Joe's POVs in the previous books have survived. We don't know about Logen, of course (but seriously, does anyone believe he's dead after The Heroes?), West is most likely dead (but could be severely injured/disabled as well) and Morveer is definitely dead... all the others are alive, IIRC. Considering some of their fates, I wouldn't exactly call it "soft", though.

For me, the best and most unexpected moment in the book was Calder sparing his brother and making him the King. Definite Crowning Moment of Heartwarming material. Loved that to this point, Calder's ending paralleled Jezal's so much (I mean the talk with Bayaz) and then... poof! But Shivers backstabbing Black Dow was awesome as well, although a bit more predictable.

Generally, I didn't enjoy some of the extended battle scenes, esp. Craw's POV (he's an all right guy, I just am not interested in the Northmen society at all), but the last 1/4 was superb. I guess I liked the book more than I'd expected when I've learned it would be a strict war story.

Oh, and I'm kinda worried about the future, with Union's army coming to Styria. While in the Union/North conflict, I wasn't rooting for anyone specific, I'll definitely be on Styria's side in the next :)

For instance where did Yoru go and why did Calder think he saw him before ?

Isn't Yoru a shapeshifter? Anyway, it was stated he had impersonated some of the minor characters to help move Bayaz' plan along.

[polishgenius]

I've got to say, I enjoyed Finree. Calder, a similar character in some ways, was the obvious showpiece and great fun to read, but he was obviously devided into Good Calder and Bad Calder, whereas the crossing between wrong and right was more ambiguous in Finree.

Gorst was a bit irritating - his chapters were all good right up until the end of them when all of them ended in a self-pitying moan.

Abercrombie's a weird one for me, because while I find him masterful in hiding a needle in every comforting blanket and a silver lining in quite a few cloud but can find it unsatisfying emotionally. Though it was less brutally crushing than either of the previous wrap-ups, as has been said - and I think things might be slowly leading to Bayaz's fall, what with Kroy standing up to him, and Calder sticking a needle in his plans by making his brother King. A small progression that from the ending of Last Argument which as has been pointed out was similar but ended in a more total victory for him.

In terms of both plot and prose I'd say it's a better, more complex book than Best Served Cold, which got repetitive; the structure meant there was a similar danger with the back-and-forthing but it never happened.

So, I don't know if his reputation is a problem just because he wasn't mentioned in the original trilogy (or BSC, which really had precious little to do with the North).

That's the point, really- he's quite new, but people act as if he's been known for years. Hardest Name in the North, he's called at one point. Really?

Same goes for Shivers. In four years he's almost as feared as Dow and the Bloody Nine ever were?

I have to say I did enjoy the use of Logen's Name as a weapon. :P Dogman is cool.

I'm not sure what evidence there is for Logen not being dead. I mean no more or less than for being dead, but I lean no further either way after this book than before.

Did we ever meet Stranger-Comes-Knocking before? The name Pip seems familiar for some reason.

[Atreides]

Shivers is feared mainly because he's imposing, violent and lethal, and most importantly he works for Black Dow. Anyone who does Black Dow's dirty work is not going to be someone you want to meet.

As for Logen, I think that those who knew him aren't going to assume he's dead until they see the body.

[kungtotte]

Shivers already had a bit of a name for himself before/during the events of The First Law, and putting in with Logen's crew didn't exactly hurt him in that regard either. Also he spent three years in the North/Union before Best Served Cold, and the subtext is that he did some pretty dark things during that time.

A Named Man comes back with half his face burned off and is hard enough that Black Dow uses him as an enforcer? Reckon that's someone you wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley.

[Poobah]

I also enjoyed reading Finree, and found Gorst a bit tiresome after a while.

I think the point was made that heroes get raised up and forgotten pretty quickly, near the end when one of the PoVs hears the northmen singing songs and shit. I'll see if I can find it later or tomorrow when I have time.

I don't really see the "wtf happy ending" thing though. Brint's daughter got captured and remained captured. Kroy got forced into retirement. Bayaz intimidated Calder into his pocket and won a minor victory. Plenty of people got killed, including the crazy guy with the big sword and Jalenhorn just off the top of my head. Also most of Craw's band got killed and his dream of a happy retirement turned out to be a pretty shitty so he's going back to war instead.

Speaking of which, I was really suprised by the twist with Calder's "straight edge" father-in-law. I really didn't see that coming. And I loved finding out that Calder had had him killed in just the manner that he discussed with Shivers a little earlier. Seems like Craw really was the only honourable man left in the north.

Ishri interests me. And I'd like to learn more in general about Khalul.

Bayaz needs to die in a fire. And yea he probably has taken up Eating. I wouldn't be surprised.

Keep up the good work Joe.

-Poobs

Edit: really glad that Craw dodged a bullet by resigning as Black Dow's Second before the duel. Unlike Wonderful he really would have fought and died because it would be the right thing to do.

[Chirios]

I have to say I did enjoy the use of Logen's Name as a weapon. :P Dogman is cool.

I'm not sure what evidence there is for Logen not being dead. I mean no more or less than for being dead, but I lean no further either way after this book than before.

Yeah I enjoyed that scene too. It's good to see exactly how feared the Bloody Nine is in the north, the mere idea that he might be there can send half a battalion running. The evidence for him not being dead is, well, he jumped off a cliff into what I understand was a river, and he's survived that before. The Bloody Nine can do things which, frankly, are impossible for the average human, and survive things which are impossible to survive. I don't know what the BN is, but it appears to be supernatural, and if it is then there's a chance that Logen might've survived.

Anyway, this book kind of depressed me. More so than Best Served Cold did anyway. In that a new nation was set up that didn't have to bow down to Bayaz or Khalul, in this one, a nation was set up that does, Dogman is now bowing to the Union, and with the North settled down Bayaz will be turning to Styria to take Monzarcatto out of Talins in no time.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Bayaz was eating. He can't use the Seed anymore, and the link between Hell and Earth is fading, so it's getting harder and harder to use magic. Eating is pretty much the only option he has if he wants to keep his power, and he needs to keep his power because without it he's just a very old man living in a village somewhere in the North.

[The hairy bear]

Isn't Yoru a shapeshifter? Anyway, it was stated he had impersonated some of the minor characters to help move Bayaz' plan along.

Yeah, at the end Calder remembers seeing Sulfur: "Had he seen him visit his father once, in a fine cloack? Or at Ironhead's fire with a Carl's helmet on? Or at the shoulder of Stranger-Come-Knocking, with paint on his face and splinters of bone through his ear."

I didn't notice him during the book in those disguises, but we'll have to look for him during a reread.

Did we ever meet Stranger-Comes-Knocking before? The name Pip seems familiar for some reason.

I also got the feeling, when Bayaz revealed this Pip name, that we should recognise it. I couldn't, though. A search for the word "pip" in an ebook version of the first law books is not helping, either.

I don't really see the "wtf happy ending" thing though. Brint's daughter got captured and remained captured. Kroy got forced into retirement. Bayaz intimidated Calder into his pocket and won a minor victory. Plenty of people got killed, including the crazy guy with the big sword and Jalenhorn just off the top of my head. Also most of Craw's band got killed and his dream of a happy retirement turned out to be a pretty shitty so he's going back to war instead.

Giving that the book was about a battle, I expected a higher toll. Brint's wife got captured, but we don't get too see her fate. Kroy resigned willingly after defying Bayaz. Whirrun wanted to die. Jalenhorm had it coming. From the POV's perspective, the only one who lost friends or family was Craw. And his only reaction was "those are the times".

Also, most of the POVs were better at the end that at the beginning of the book: Calder ruling the north with his brother, Finree governing Angland and truly loving his husband, Beck happy at home, Gorst reinstated as the King's bodyguard, the Union and the North at peace with the Dogman getting lands to rule,...

Compare it to the end of the First Law trilogy: West dead, Logen betrayed by his friends and presumed dead, Jedzal totally defeated and a prisoner in his own court with a wive who despises him, Ferro unable to break from her life... That was depressing!

[polishgenius]

Yeah, no-one's saying the ending was happy. It was just happier than the previous.

I suspect we'll be seeing Brint's daughter again.

[Imagica]

I suspect we'll be seeing Brint's daughter again.

I hope we won't, because that was the creepiest thing in the book for me and I'm actively trying to forget her fate. Poor girl.

In fact, I'd expect to see Finree again, not Aliz, but maybe that's just wishful thinking. She felt like a more realistic female character to me, compared to Ferro or Monza (although I do like Ferro and Monza).

Compare it to the end of the First Law trilogy: West dead, Logen betrayed by his friends and presumed dead, Jedzal totally defeated and a prisoner in his own court with a wive who despises him, Ferro unable to break from her life... That was depressing!

That's why I'm glad Joe doesn't repeat this every book. That would be too much. Also, love it or hate it, TFL's ending was pretty unique, and its uniqueness and freshness would be spoilt by giving every other story a similar one.

I also enjoyed reading Finree, and found Gorst a bit tiresome after a while.

ITA. I did, however, like the prose in Gorst's chapters. Had a bit of poetic tint to it.

[polishgenius]

I hope we won't, because that was the creepiest thing in the book for me and I'm actively trying to forget her fate. Poor girl.

The whole part of the plot with Stranger-Comes-Knocking felt like set-up for future ideas.

The thing about Finree v Ferro and Monza is that the other two are primarily motivated by revenge and focused entirely on one goal. Finree's just a normal person with all the complexities that entails.

[Imagica]

I'd say Ferro and Monza were more like typical "women as written by male writers", no matter the motivations. They sometimes felt practically like men, and while there isn't anything wrong with that - there are women who think and feel like men in real life - it still bugged me, just a little. Anyway, I mostly liked Finree, and I want to see her again :) If Calder's ending reminded me of Jezal, then hers reminded me of Glokta's, and in both of their cases I got a notion that sooner or later, it's going to bite Bayaz in the ass. Just felt like a chekhov's gun.

The whole part of the plot with Stranger-Comes-Knocking felt like set-up for future ideas.

Really? Stranger was a bit enigmatic, yeah, but I thought it was deliberate, not just a hole to be filled later.

[Poobah]

Gorst reinstated as the King's bodyguard

Yeah but he's even more of a self-pitying cunt at the end than the beginning.

[Sheep the Evicted]

Personally I doubt Bayaz is Eating - his reflex's are still slow enough that he can't catch an apple properly. Besides if he started eating it would mean Khalul was right, can't see his pride allowing him to do it.

Personally I liked Beck the best, I thought the chapter where he watches as the Union overcomes the bridge was the best that Abercrombie has ever written and the chapter after that was the most poignant. Red Reft would have sounded awesome. Finree was awesome, but oddly enough I never feared for her when she was captured, I was sure Abercrombie wasn't writing that kind of book, but I was shitting myself every time she spoke to Bayaz. Does she know what Bayaz does to people with Spunk ? She threw an apple a fucking apple at him. Maybe Bayaz has a soft spot for the girls. Also when he said something to the effect of "I grow tired of speaking to stiff kneed people" was that a hint about Glokta ? He always did plan to become his own man.

Personally i was disappointed we didn't get to see more of the Dogman from the northern side, we always got extreme self depreciation when he thought about himself but then Logen isn't so bad a guy and a none to special fighter if you hear him tell it. I always wondered what other people thought when they saw him, was he the Dogman or was he just the Bloody Nines sidekick. I was also expecting Pale-as-Snow to be harder, but then i realised i had him mixed up with Littlebone. Dude was awesome, seemed his name was almost as big as Threetrees.

It was a marvellous read. Joe really does keep getting better.

[polishgenius]

Really? Stranger was a bit enigmatic, yeah, but I thought it was deliberate, not just a hole to be filled later.

Yeah, I'm not suggesting he was included only for that reason, but there were things about the way he was presented that makes me thing there's more to come, and Aliz being taken back to his lands seems like a lead-in.

I think there's more planned for Finree too, as it goes, but maybe not as a PoV (it doesn't seem Abercrombie's style to re-use a PoV). Perhaps from her hubby's view, as that sort of thing he does a lot.

On another subject, did anyone else find it ever-so-slightly predictable? Not the plot as a whole and it's not even really a flaw because I have a lot of fun guessing those details, and in these cases they're not unsatisfyingly predicable like in some others, but, for example, I got Gorst being the one to kill Whirrun the second the bone thing was said, Shivers killing Dow was obvious as soon as the challenge was made, and I got Reachey being the guy who sent the killers after Calder, although quite close to it after a fairly obvious hint in one of Reachey's reactions to him talking about it.

[jurble]

Got the book today, finished it today. Not sure how I feel about it. It was an enjoyable book, but I'm not sure how it advances the overarching story. I guess, it puts the North back into Bayaz's hands from it being tenuously in Khalul's hands. I knew Whirrun of Bligh was going to die from the get-go, the subversion would have been if Joe Abercrombie had played it straight, and Whirrun actually was this sorta invincible warrior guy. I imagine his sword is one of the Maker's.

I also want to know more about the Shanka, as of The First Law, the Shanka were moving south, but no one in this book even mentions them, you'd think it'd be fairly important. I was hoping Bayaz would get his comeuppance, especially since that short-story prequel implied that Craw's dozen were working for some powerful witch or something. But I guess that was just unimportant event in their history. As of now, my hopes for Bayaz getting his comeuppance rest entirely on Shenkt. I was also saddened to not hear any rumors or anything about Glokta. In BSC, all the characters talked about him like an evil spook, in this book, he's not even mentioned. I also found it neat that the Union characters seem to realize the Closed Council is where the real power sits, and their view of Bayaz as a controlling, interfering douchebag is fairly spot-on. They just don't seem to have a grasp on the full scope of his power.