The Dagger and the Coin - SPOILER THREAD

[red snow]

The "hardened solider" trope would certainly have just killed Yardem. Because, you know, he's a hardened soldier. That's what they do. But instead of just going along with the trope, Abraham has Marcus act like a real person - not some fantasy trope. A real person, given time, would probably find a way to forgive a longtime friend. The hardened soldier trope would not.

That whole thing just kinda exemplifies a good part of the reason I like this series so much.

I think this a case of the thing Bolivar hates about the series is one of the reasons we love it.

I think Cithrin has done things I wouldn't doeg "gamble a vast fortune, sleep with a tyrant".

[Bolivar]

For clarity I don't hate the series and am genuinely looking forward to The Widow's House.

For the sake of argument, I think gambling a vast fortune is something anyone would do if there were no consequences, which there certainly aren't for Cithrin :p

[Joe Reed]

Just finished The Tyrant's Law, and really enjoyed it as others have. I think the characters in particular are fantastic. Geder is a pretty harsh criticism of the "nerd." He's not the good spirited oddball being bullied by those mean old cool kids. He's petty, bitter, selfish, and mean-spirited. He asks Jorey about how to write a love letter, and after his advice all he can come up with his basically a 10 page document about how he wants a sex slave.

Honestly, I thought that Cithrin's efforts to save the Timzinae were going to backfire big time, because I thought when Geder got there and she was gone he was going to blame it on the Timz and have the rest of them in the city slaughtered.

Clara's transformation and taking advantage of her newfound freedom has been great. She's another super interesting character.

Marcus is a little bit of a cookie cutter character, but luckily he spends all of his time with Kit, who is anything but.

I thought the bit at the end with the dragon was fairly foolish. They walk in not remotely expecting to find a living dragon, hang out for 15 minutes, and on a whim decide to wake up the firebreathing tyrants who ruled the world and enslaved humans? That just didn't seem very realistic. I thought it would have been a lot better for them to blunder into it and wake it up.

Anyway, definitely interested to see where everything goes, although I'm a bit disappointed to now be on the wait for the next installment plan. I mistakenly bought the first one thinking the series was finished. Oh well, it looks like Abraham is a pretty prolific writer so it's not likely to end up dragging out into eternity.

I finished the book thinking it was the end of the trilogy (I was tired and listening to it just before I was about to sleep) so the ending was a HUGE "WTF is that it?!" moment for me! I had to wake up a little and look up the series a little bit more.

The "hardened solider" trope would certainly have just killed Yardem. Because, you know, he's a hardened soldier. That's what they do. But instead of just going along with the trope, Abraham has Marcus act like a real person - not some fantasy trope. A real person, given time, would probably find a way to forgive a longtime friend. The hardened soldier trope would not.

That whole thing just kinda exemplifies a good part of the reason I like this series so much.

I honestly don't get this: the two have been playing around with the joke that Yardem will do exactly what he does throughout their tenure together and Marcus mused over the fact that he does have a blindspot for Cithrin several times throughout the books as well. I wasn't let down by the fact that he didn't kill Yardem.

But hell, for all we know, that's the opening scene in the next book.

[JMHthe3rd]

Just finished the book yesterday. I was actually surprised Cithrin decided to sail away, as I was sort of assuming being Geder's bed slave/consort was where her story arc was heading. Glad Yardem was there to talk her out of it (though I doubt he would have taken no for an answer). I was not looking forward to Geder & Cithrin rapey sex.

It wouldn't have worked anyway, even if Cithrin was able to keep up the subterfuge. Being around Geder means being around Basrahip, which means constantly hearing about how evil the Timzinae are. Even if she could avoid lying in front of Basrahip or making Geder suspicious, she would eventually have been turned.

I still find Geder facinatingly sympathetic. I even felt sorry for him during his temper tantrum at the Suddapal bank. He's so lonely it's just sad. But yeah, that love letter was all sorts of creepy. I fear what he'd do if he ever captures Cithrin.

[TrackerNeil]

I really, really want to like this series, but I'm giving up. Someone whose opinion I greatly respect is a big Abraham fan, so on her recommendation I plan to give The Long Price a try.

[red snow]

The long price is more unique and doesn't try to fit in with the usual fantasy fold so you may enjoy that one more. The characters act in similar ways though so if it's the characters you have an issue with it could be tricky.

It's still worth a shot though as the long price is excellent and not a slow burn as the whole thing is over in under 2000 pages.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Just finished the book yesterday. I was actually surprised Cithrin decided to sail away, as I was sort of assuming being Geder's bed slave/consort was where her story arc was heading. Glad Yardem was there to talk her out of it (though I doubt he would have taken no for an answer). I was not looking forward to Geder & Cithrin rapey sex.

It wouldn't have worked anyway, even if Cithrin was able to keep up the subterfuge. Being around Geder means being around Basrahip, which means constantly hearing about how evil the Timzinae are. Even if she could avoid lying in front of Basrahip or making Geder suspicious, she would eventually have been turned.

I still find Geder facinatingly sympathetic. I even felt sorry for him during his temper tantrum at the Suddapal bank. He's so lonely it's just sad. But yeah, that love letter was all sorts of creepy. I fear what he'd do if he ever captures Cithrin.

Geder seems like he's just a normal guy with mostly good intentions, who just happens to have a little trouble seeing things from other peoples' perspectives.

[red snow]

Geder seems like he's just a normal guy with mostly good intentions, who just happens to have a little trouble seeing things from other peoples' perspectives.

He reminds me a lot of David Brent but with a powerful army empowering him. His infatuation with Cithrin is cringeworthy and sinister whilst familiar enough to cause some empathy.

[sperry]

Geder seems like he's just a normal guy with mostly good intentions, who just happens to have a little trouble seeing things from other peoples' perspectives.

Geder doesn't have good intentions though. It's made clear throughout that he doesn't care at all about anyone else. He just cares about himself, and getting back at those who he feels have wronged him. The only person he seems to care about is Aster. His letter makes it clear that he doesn't really like Cithrin, he just wants a consort.

[TrackerNeil]

Geder doesn't have good intentions though. It's made clear throughout that he doesn't care at all about anyone else. He just cares about himself, and getting back at those who he feels have wronged him. The only person he seems to care about is Aster. His letter makes it clear that he doesn't really like Cithrin, he just wants a consort.

Exactly! Geder set up a Star Chamber where he regularly sentences people to death, takes children hostage and threatens them with harm, enslaves other races and indulges his paranoid conspiracy fantasies through pograms and invasions. Where are his good intentions, exactly?

[red snow]

Geder doesn't have good intentions though. It's made clear throughout that he doesn't care at all about anyone else. He just cares about himself, and getting back at those who he feels have wronged him. The only person he seems to care about is Aster. His letter makes it clear that he doesn't really like Cithrin, he just wants a consort.

I'm pretty sure he'll kill Aster before the series ends as well - especially with Basrahip always referring to him as "highness/majesty"

[MisterOJ]

Geder doesn't have good intentions though. It's made clear throughout that he doesn't care at all about anyone else. He just cares about himself, and getting back at those who he feels have wronged him. The only person he seems to care about is Aster. His letter makes it clear that he doesn't really like Cithrin, he just wants a consort.

He is also pretty fond of Jorey as well.

I don't think Geder is evil so much as he is incredibly immature.

[TrackerNeil]

He is also pretty fond of Jorey as well.

I don't think Geder is evil so much as he is incredibly immature.

I don't get this. He's conducting inquisitions and pogroms, and has essentially enslaved the Timizinae. What more would Geder have to do to convince you he's evil?

[red snow]

I don't get this. He's conducting inquisitions and pogroms, and has essentially enslaved the Timizinae. What more would Geder have to do to convince you he's evil?

I agree. At some point (or maybe in all points) a person is evil based on their actions. So Geder is evil just not in a mwhahah "i'm evil" way. It doesn't matter how insecure or nice to a handful of people he is he's still wiped out a city and killed people on a whim.

[MisterOJ]

I think motives matter. And while Geder has committed (and allowed) many horrible, evil acts - I don't think his motives have been evil. Someone can do bad things and not be a bad person. I think this is the case with Geder.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Geder is obviously evil, but being allowed into his head makes his actions almost seem justified. He just, afterall, wants to to take care of his prince and his country.

[mormont]

I think motives matter. And while Geder has committed (and allowed) many horrible, evil acts - I don't think his motives have been evil.

I think those motives placed Geder's personal interests (often relatively minor ones) above the best interests, freedom and, y'know, actual lives of countless others without a second thought: and I think that's about as good a definition of 'evil' as you're likely to get.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

To expand upon what I said before, I think the line between Geder, and say, Maati, isn't that thick. Geder's a bit more selfish, awkward and petulant, but the scary thing is that every step of his decision process seems to make sense, right up until, "I'm going to burn ten thousand people to death"

[Jaxom 1974]

Geder doesn't have good intentions though. It's made clear throughout that he doesn't care at all about anyone else. He just cares about himself, and getting back at those who he feels have wronged him. The only person he seems to care about is Aster. His letter makes it clear that he doesn't really like Cithrin, he just wants a consort.

Exactly! Geder set up a Star Chamber where he regularly sentences people to death, takes children hostage and threatens them with harm, enslaves other races and indulges his paranoid conspiracy fantasies through pograms and invasions. Where are his good intentions, exactly?

I don't get this. He's conducting inquisitions and pogroms, and has essentially enslaved the Timizinae. What more would Geder have to do to convince you he's evil?

Geder is obviously evil, but being allowed into his head makes his actions almost seem justified. He just, afterall, wants to to take care of his prince and his country.

I don't think there is any question that Geder is evil. The distinction is that we're seeing what's in his head and yet he doesn't even realize that he's doing evil things. When we're introduced to him in book 1, he's a sheltered individual who is so immersed in the literature and history that he reads that he doesn't effectively function in the "real world". His actions and thoughts are geared towards "what was done by so and so, this is how this should go down because this one time someone else did it that way". As things progress, Basrahip's opinion and desires becomes a substitute for the books in how Geder couches things in his own head.

To me, it's like a giant walking around in a normal sized human world not realizing what damage is being done. Though passive evil is no less evil. Possibly more so.

[TrackerNeil]

To me, it's like a giant walking around in a normal sized human world not realizing what damage is being done. Though passive evil is no less evil. Possibly more so.

But the evil is not passive, or unintentional, but quite active and premeditated. Geder set up a Star Chamber, and ordered construction of the prisons for Timizinae children. Geder commanded that Timizinae be for all intents and purposes enslaved to Antea. Geder insisted that, despite a paucity of evidence, that the civil war instigated by Killiam was part of a greater plot against him. That's not the work of a bumbling giant; it's the considered policy of a tyrant.