The Dagger and the Coin - SPOILER THREAD

[The Lord's Kiss]

I started reading this last year but stopped right after the killing of Opal, it just seemed kind of slow. But then I picked it back up and within a few chapters Geder had burned Vanai and Cithrin had forged a bank.

My personal favorite part of the book was the end.. Inys is a gamechanger but my super favorite part of the ebook was SPOILERS FOR "THE WIDOWS HOUSE"

the Barriath reveal. House Kalliam represent.. yourself as Callom Cane.

[Maia]

I have just finished the book yesterday and I have enjoyed it very much. Actually, far from seeing it as a "middle volume", I liked it more than the 2 previous ones. Ended with a bang too, but I was thoroughly riveted throughout.

Clara is part of it, of course, as is Geder - in fact, I feel that he is a truly unique character in SF/fantasy, but IMHO, the Markus/Kit questing actually rounded it up in a way that the previous volumes didn't manage to achieve. Frankly, Markus and Dawson were pretty traditional fantasy PoVs in the first 2 books and I am very pleased by the turn Markus took here and that Dawson was replaced.

I never warmed up to Cithrin, I have to say, there is just something very unconvincing about her, to me. And particularly her rescue of Geder and Aster in the previous book seemed rather contrived, IMHO. It is also difficult for me to imagine Komme Medean being on-board with her new approach to banking, heh. Given how banks reacted in similar situations iRL and all.

And now, for some nitpicking:

As much as I enjoy Clara's PoV and plot-line, the whole "living in a boarding-house, yet being received privately at the fringes of the court" always bothered me.

First of all, if a woman like her had to be removed from a family manor, she would have been stashed at some of the family's more obscure properties. Throwing her into the streets and having her live in a boarding-house should have been very damaging to Jorey's and Skestinin's reputations in anything resembling a RL setting.

And living in a boarding house, without even a maid and relatively hand-to-mouth, how could she keep her appearance and clothing acceptable for being received even privately and on the fringes, by members of the court? This makes zero sense.

Another of these court-related things that rub me wrong is the royal hunt throughout all winter and return to the city in summer. This is completely counter-intuitive.

iRL, people spent winters in the cities and summers on their estates. Cities in summer were quite unhealthy and, of course, the actual estate management was needed much more in summer, during the growing and harvesting seasons.

And deer become quite a poor prey during the winter, which is why RL hunting season is in autumn, when the deer are still fat from the summer. In winter, it only makes sense to hunt animals for their pelts - i.e. wolves, foxes, etc.

[Calibandar]

Interesting stuff Maia.

[Jaxom 1974]

Finally. Finished this today. Loved it. Its hard not to. Even with the conversation in this thread, I admit some confusion over the epilogue. Trying to parse out what exactly went down with the dragons confused me some. I hope it becomes clearer in the next book.

[red snow]

Finally. Finished this today. Loved it. Its hard not to. Even with the conversation in this thread, I admit some confusion over the epilogue. Trying to parse out what exactly went down with the dragons confused me some. I hope it becomes clearer in the next book.

Finally. Finished this today. Loved it. Its hard not to. Even with the conversation in this thread, I admit some confusion over the epilogue. Trying to parse out what exactly went down with the dragons confused me some. I hope it becomes clearer in the next book.

From our conversations we definitely need some more info on the whole Dragon war. It seems like a given though.

And now, for some nitpicking:

As much as I enjoy Clara's PoV and plot-line, the whole "living in a boarding-house, yet being received privately at the fringes of the court" always bothered me.

First of all, if a woman like her had to be removed from a family manor, she would have been stashed at some of the family's more obscure properties. Throwing her into the streets and having her live in a boarding-house should have been very damaging to Jorey's and Skestinin's reputations in anything resembling a RL setting.

And living in a boarding house, without even a maid and relatively hand-to-mouth, how could she keep her appearance and clothing acceptable for being received even privately and on the fringes, by members of the court? This makes zero sense.

Another of these court-related things that rub me wrong is the royal hunt throughout all winter and return to the city in summer. This is completely counter-intuitive.

iRL, people spent winters in the cities and summers on their estates. Cities in summer were quite unhealthy and, of course, the actual estate management was needed much more in summer, during the growing and harvesting seasons.

And deer become quite a poor prey during the winter, which is why RL hunting season is in autumn, when the deer are still fat from the summer. In winter, it only makes sense to hunt animals for their pelts - i.e. wolves, foxes, etc.

I'm pretty ignorant of hunting seasons and the like so it's not something I can get too upset about but your arguments do seem sound and now I've read them does make their habits seem a bit illogical.

As for Clara getting kicked out, i thought the point was that he children had to make a show of casting her out. Sending her off to an isolated estate wouldn't really be a huge punishment. Throwing her out onto the streets makes a far more pointed gesture that Geder and the courts can appreciate (I assume they don't mind her getting pocket money as the living conditions are punishment enough).

As for her appearance I'm sure a lot of what you are talking about is actually in how you carry yourself and your confidence. Clara has bucketloads of that. Let's not forget Clara was also very good at politics. If the other women of court thought Geder was allowing her back in then some of them would be more cautious around her. Plus it was a plot point in the sense she was given a suitable dress from one of the court as a barbed gift.

[The Lord's Kiss]

Finally. Finished this today. Loved it. Its hard not to. Even with the conversation in this thread, I admit some confusion over the epilogue. Trying to parse out what exactly went down with the dragons confused me some. I hope it becomes clearer in the next book.

Agreed, we still don't know 90% of what happened to the dragons but I thought the Inys chapter was brilliant, along with the reveal that Drakkis Stormcrow was a woman. I'm almost positive Mr. Abraham will go into further detail in the next book and give us more details.

It had started as no more than the usual rivalry. Three clutch-mates vying for their emperor's favor. Each of them had made their great works for presentation at the fire court. Asteril had spent decades laboring on his birds of living copper. Morade built his deep-water city and the holes in the ocean through which even the widest-winged dragon could soar to reach it. Inys had composed a poem that linked the five levels of thought to the five fallen elements. It should have been only that. Inys had only thought what he'd done a prank. Mean-spirited, perhaps, but not outside the realm of etiquette. But as soon as the waters fell in on Morade's great work, as soon as he saw the grief and rage in his clutchmate's eyes, he knew he had gone too far. And now Morade had as well, and innocent Asteril was gone, his scales dulled forever by the poisons he poured into the culling blades for the uncorrupt. Inys mourned his brother, but then he mourned everything now.

The thing that most confuses me is that if Morade is the Dragon Emperor why would he work and be vying for his or ber favor. The title of the chapter is "Inys, Brother and Clutch-Mate to the Dragon Emperor," so it's not like the Emperor was the Spider Goddess. I have to go back in this thread, but Morade created the spiders, and Asteril created the poisoned swords that are the only way to kill these spiders. I'm about to finish the Long Price Quartet, and after that I have Emperor of Thornsto read, but I may be re-reading this series soon enough. Definitely before "The Widow's House" comes out.

But damn do I love this series. So fecking much.

[Tears of Lys]

Do spoilers be here?

<peeks in cautiously>

ETA: Well, duh, yeah. it's labeled SPOILERS.

:rolleyes:

[The Lord's Kiss]

Do spoilers be here?

<peeks in cautiously>

ETA: Well, duh, yeah. it's labeled SPOILERS.

:rolleyes:

Yes, I am really sorry if I spoiled something for you, I should have put the tags on but I'm using my phone and it just takes forever. Promise to tag spoiler stuff in the future. Again, I apologize if I spoiled something!

[Tears of Lys]

Yes, I am really sorry if I spoiled something for you, I should have put the tags on but I'm using my phone and it just takes forever. Promise to tag spoiler stuff in the future. Again, I apologize if I spoiled something!

No worries! The thread is clearly labeled. I just saw "Dagger and Coin" and got all excited and came into the thread. I haven't gotten even a third of the way through "The King's Blood" yet.

I'm gonna stay out now. :)

[Jussi]

The publishing date of The Widow's House is August 5th, 2014. I wonder what happened to spring release schedule... Blurb:

The stunning fourth volume in the Dagger and the Coin series, perfect for fans of George R.R. Martin.

THE RISE OF THE DRAGON AND THE FALL OF KINGS

Lord Regent Geder Palliako's war has led his nation and the priests of the spider goddess to victory after victory. No power has withstood him, except for the heart of the one woman he desires. As the violence builds and the cracks in his rule begin to show, he will risk everything to gain her love or else her destruction.

Clara Kalliam, the loyal traitor, is torn between the woman she once was and the woman she has become. With her sons on all sides of the conflict, her house cannot stand, but there is a power in choosing when and how to fall.

And in Porte Oliva, banker Cithrin bel Sarcour and Captain Marcus Wester learn the terrible truth that links this war to the fall of the dragons millennia before, and that to save the world, Cithrin must conquer it.

http://edelweiss.abo...?sku=031620398X

[Underfoot]

That's too far away! At least there's a date now. Thanks for posting that!

[sperry]

Just finished The Tyrant's Law, and really enjoyed it as others have. I think the characters in particular are fantastic. Geder is a pretty harsh criticism of the "nerd." He's not the good spirited oddball being bullied by those mean old cool kids. He's petty, bitter, selfish, and mean-spirited. He asks Jorey about how to write a love letter, and after his advice all he can come up with his basically a 10 page document about how he wants a sex slave.

Honestly, I thought that Cithrin's efforts to save the Timzinae were going to backfire big time, because I thought when Geder got there and she was gone he was going to blame it on the Timz and have the rest of them in the city slaughtered.

Clara's transformation and taking advantage of her newfound freedom has been great. She's another super interesting character.

Marcus is a little bit of a cookie cutter character, but luckily he spends all of his time with Kit, who is anything but.

I thought the bit at the end with the dragon was fairly foolish. They walk in not remotely expecting to find a living dragon, hang out for 15 minutes, and on a whim decide to wake up the firebreathing tyrants who ruled the world and enslaved humans? That just didn't seem very realistic. I thought it would have been a lot better for them to blunder into it and wake it up.

Anyway, definitely interested to see where everything goes, although I'm a bit disappointed to now be on the wait for the next installment plan. I mistakenly bought the first one thinking the series was finished. Oh well, it looks like Abraham is a pretty prolific writer so it's not likely to end up dragging out into eternity.

[Bolivar]

I also thought the reconciliation with Yardem was unrealistic, you expect these guys to be hardened soldiers, Marcus talks about one of then leaving in a box the next time they meet. But Yardem just tells him he was being unreasonable and Marcus decides, "hey, you're right!" Instantaneously... I also thought the way he gets Cithrin out of her dilemma at the end of the first book to be just a little too convenient, too. I liked the King's Blood the most so far, probably because it didn't have any of these improbable and convenient plot devices in it.

Overall I like the series a lot and can't wait for The Widow's House.

[Underfoot]

Anyway, definitely interested to see where everything goes, although I'm a bit disappointed to now be on the wait for the next installment plan. I mistakenly bought the first one thinking the series was finished. Oh well, it looks like Abraham is a pretty prolific writer so it's not likely to end up dragging out into eternity.

I believe The Widow's House is set to be published in early August. Can't come soon enough for me!

[Pecan]

I just got the book a few days ago but I'm having trouble getting into it. The characters so far don't feel real to me. I'll keep plugging away though.

[Joe Reed]

I just got the book a few days ago but I'm having trouble getting into it. The characters so far don't feel real to me. I'll keep plugging away though.

Keep with it, it gets better.

[red snow]

I also thought the reconciliation with Yardem was unrealistic, you expect these guys to be hardened soldiers, Marcus talks about one of then leaving in a box the next time they meet. But Yardem just tells him he was being unreasonable and Marcus decides, "hey, you're right!" Instantaneously... I also thought the way he gets Cithrin out of her dilemma at the end of the first book to be just a little too convenient, too. I liked the King's Blood the most so far, probably because it didn't have any of these improbable and convenient plot devices in it.

Overall I like the series a lot and can't wait for The Widow's House.

You forget he's had a long time to think about it while starving, etc on the trek. He mentions several times in his chapters how he probably is blindsided when it comes to Cithrin. If Yardem had betrayed him over someone else (or if Cithrin had died) he'd have killed Yardem.

If it really bugs you, you can consider all the time he spent with Kit - maybe he wanted Marcus to forgive him?

[Bolivar]

I see what you're saying but I still feel the same way. It goes to a larger problem that the characters feel *too relatable to me. I desperately want one of then to do something I would never do, but a mercenary captain or a pragmatist banker would do without remorse. All the characters feel whitewashed except Geder, which is simply for purposes of the plot and having a villain POV.

I think to assume he reflected on it during his travels with Kit is to assume too much and do Abraham's work for him. When a hardened soldier says one of them will die the next time they meet, I'd rather take him at his word than have this dilemma disappear "just because."

[MisterOJ]

I see what you're saying but I still feel the same way. It goes to a larger problem that the characters feel *too relatable to me. I desperately want one of then to do something I would never do, but a mercenary captain or a pragmatist banker would do without remorse. All the characters feel whitewashed except Geder, which is simply for purposes of the plot and having a villain POV.

I think to assume he reflected on it during his travels with Kit is to assume too much and do Abraham's work for him. When a hardened soldier says one of them will die the next time they meet, I'd rather take him at his word than have this dilemma disappear "just because."

The "hardened solider" trope would certainly have just killed Yardem. Because, you know, he's a hardened soldier. That's what they do. But instead of just going along with the trope, Abraham has Marcus act like a real person - not some fantasy trope. A real person, given time, would probably find a way to forgive a longtime friend. The hardened soldier trope would not.

That whole thing just kinda exemplifies a good part of the reason I like this series so much.

[Bolivar]

Didn't he sneak up on him to get the drop on him?

In any case it was still anticlimactic.