DC to reboot pretty much everything in September

[AverageGuy]

Huh, I think you're honestly the first person I've seen who doesen't like Gail Simone. (I don't read DC, so I have no opinion)

I like Simone in general, but I think she has certain flaws. Basically, she has darlings. She builds up characters, which can be fun, but then she seems to take them to a place where their stories are over... and then what? Black Canary's power-up and subsequent retirement come to mind. So when she starts on Wonder Woman, who's never been written with real flaws, the way Simone writes, Wonder Woman has to get better-- which of course means she randomly gets lightning powers.

I think Simone would be better off if she wrote and could end her own stories.

[red snow]

I like Simone in general, but I think she has certain flaws. Basically, she has darlings. She builds up characters, which can be fun, but then she seems to take them to a place where their stories are over... and then what? Black Canary's power-up and subsequent retirement come to mind. So when she starts on Wonder Woman, who's never been written with real flaws, the way Simone writes, Wonder Woman has to get better-- which of course means she randomly gets lightning powers.

I think Simone would be better off if she wrote and could end her own stories.

You build your argument quite well considering she's writing Batgirl and Barbara Gordon can suddenly walk again. I actually think her more comical books are her best eg Deadpool/weapon X and Welcome to Tranquility (great concept but virtually unsellable to a young male audience). It feels as though she was always been taken off BoP only to be brought back once BoP sales dropped. I think she should have been given a shot at one of the big titles though eg JLA or a Super/Bat book as she has always been left with "b list" titles. I know she had a crack at wonder woman but that character seems to have been languishing in B-list, in terms of comic sales, for a long time. Batgirl could be her highest profile book yet in many ways and part of me is still hoping that Barbara is still paralysed and it's some kind of tech/drugs that allow her to be Batgirl. It could be an interesting spin on a vigilante and keep old fans happy, although Gail made some very good points in terms of "it's ridiculous how every other hero gets to be resurrected/cured of all ailments apart from Barbara".

Peterbound: While it's bad news for a lot of retailers initially it would be a lot worse if we didn't tell them in advance we were cancelling. My comic store owner told me he was utterly shafted when Marvel's "heroic age" began. 3 quarters of his Avengers readers all jumped ship and that wasn't even a "reboot". The perils of an ageing readership I suspect. It's why part of me understands what DC is doing - if they can get 10 new readers for every me, then that's still a great business decision.

[Sci-2]

It's why part of me understands what DC is doing - if they can get 10 new readers for every me, then that's still a great business decision.

I wonder how much marketing research they do - I still remember all the BS, snide commentary they gave Morrison - I think Mark Waid even noted what a dick Didio was being - but his stuff seems to sell trades.

I also wonder how much money is even in single issues anymore. And if they want kids to read comics, they need to bring back the cheap, lower quality digests for kids. I can't see a lot of parents who would buy 3-4 issues of a YA comic when for that price they can buy their kid the paperback of Harry Potter.

It just seems the comic companies have a few strategies - push the envelope in what is usually a cheap and tawdry way (Identity Crisis), make some giant crossover that doesn't make sense without buying tons of books, then reverse the chronology with a reboot.

Aren't the best DC books are Vertigo, Elseworlds or not specifying continuity?

[haLobEnder]

Aren't the best DC books are Vertigo, Elseworlds or not specifying continuity?

Not from a sales perspective. Seriously, I worry that integrating the Vertigo characters back into the DCU is just a precursor to them shutting down the whole line. DMZ's ending, Northlanders was just cancelled, the only reason Sweet Tooth exists is because Jeff Lemire is doing other projects for them...

Scalped and Unwritten are middling successful, but they still don't get anywhere near the readership of most superhero titles from the top two.

[Sci-2]

Not from a sales perspective. Seriously, I worry that integrating the Vertigo characters back into the DCU is just a precursor to them shutting down the whole line. DMZ's ending, Northlanders was just cancelled, the only reason Sweet Tooth exists is because Jeff Lemire is doing other projects for them...

Scalped and Unwritten are middling successful, but they still don't get anywhere near the readership of most superhero titles from the top two.

I thought Vertigo titles made up for the single issues in trades sales?

[red snow]

I thought Vertigo titles made up for the single issues in trades sales?

Marvel admits they can't fathom how DC keeps Vertigo going as the monthly sales are terrible. There are two factors that keep them going though. First off the trades are usually in the top trade sales whenever a new one is released and, more importantly, they continue to sell for years. Sandman and Preacher etc continue to do solid numbers something that Batman vol x and avengers vol 23 probably wont. The other thing to consider is the IP value of Vertigo. 100 bullets has just been announced as a TV show, Y the last man is in development hell, The losers and Constantine were films. There are lots of great vertigo comics that can make good TV/films without the worry of integrating it into a shared superhero universe. I'm sure the creators get a good cut but so will DC/WB and in many ways it's probably a lot easier to spin-off vertigo products than the DCU itself. It's also far more varied.

[Sci-2]

Marvel admits they can't fathom how DC keeps Vertigo going as the monthly sales are terrible. There are two factors that keep them going though. First off the trades are usually in the top trade sales whenever a new one is released and, more importantly, they continue to sell for years. Sandman and Preacher etc continue to do solid numbers something that Batman vol x and avengers vol 23 probably wont. The other thing to consider is the IP value of Vertigo. 100 bullets has just been announced as a TV show, Y the last man is in development hell, The losers and Constantine were films. There are lots of great vertigo comics that can make good TV/films without the worry of integrating it into a shared superhero universe. I'm sure the creators get a good cut but so will DC/WB and in many ways it's probably a lot easier to spin-off vertigo products than the DCU itself. It's also far more varied.

Thanks, that makes sense. I also believe that if any comic books can sell to current non-readers, it is the Vertigo line. They are the ones that always seem to grab friends who don't read comics, and DC + Time Warner failing to market them honestly kind of disgusts me. Bit of an overreaction I admit, but it just seems like they are throwing away the potential to expand interest in the medium.

Admittedly, of course, I have no marketing background and there might be a hole in my "logic".

[haLobEnder]

I thought Vertigo titles made up for the single issues in trades sales?

Depends on the series. A lot of Vertigo's reputation as a 'trade' publisher comes from series like Sandman, Y the Last Man, and Preacher that continue to sell well long after the comic itself wraps up. One wonders though how many of the currently running series are seen as being successful; Fables certainly, but I'm not sure something like Unwritten is when compared to the juggernauts that proceeded it.

All I know is that if DC did close Vertigo I'd probably quit comics for good. I already have a lot of contempt for the North American comic market and it's focus on superheros, that would be the nail in the coffin.

[peterbound]

All I know is that if DC did close Vertigo I'd probably quit comics for good. I already have a lot of contempt for the North American comic market and it's focus on superheros, that would be the nail in the coffin.

this.

[red snow]

If vertigo ever did fold, don't quit comics. Image has undergone quite the identity crisis in the last few years and has switched focus from art to story. The art is still great but no longer solely "image" style and they are putting out titles that are starting to become Vertigo-ish. There's Walking dead as well as a lot of other interesting indie-style concepts (Nick spencer's stuff) flying around these days. IDW and Dark horse have some gems too apparently.

Newsarama had an article on "Where are the missing DC writers" and it sounds as if a lot of them are taking their would-be-vertigo pitches over to image. I think creators are starting to see the appeal of creator-owned material in light of how "Walking dead" and Mark Millars stuff have been doing quite well in other media.

Basically, Image is becoming a good second home for Vertigo and will definitely pick up the slack if DC were to be crazy enough to dissolve the imprint.

[haLobEnder]

Don't get me wrong, I like Image --in fact, the few titles I'm picking up on a monthly basis right now are all Image books-- but Vertigo symbolizes something that Image doesn't --namely quality titles geared towards older readers-- and the loss of that symbol would dishearten me.

And by 'quit' I mean I'd stop going to my local comic shop, ignore DC and Marvel completely and stop frequenting comics related websites. I don't think I could stop reading comics/graphic novels altogether, I'd just turn in my fanboy card and start treating American comics with the same level of dispassionate interest I do European comics and manga.

[red snow]

Don't get me wrong, I like Image --in fact, the few titles I'm picking up on a monthly basis right now are all Image books-- but Vertigo symbolizes something that Image doesn't, and the loss of that symbol would dishearten me.

And by 'quit' I mean I'd stop going to my local comic shop, ignore DC and Marvel completely and stop frequenting comics related websites. I don't think I could stop reading comics/graphic novels altogether, I'd just turn in my fanboy card and start treating American comics with the same level of dispassionate interest I do European comics and manga.

Vertigo definitely works as a "brand". I even partially agree with Tom Brevoort when he says he has a feeling "Y the last man" wouldn't have been a success if it was a marvel max title. It's like you say; with Image you're not guaranteed a quality comic whereas with Vertigo I'm usually confident to give it a shot. Although I gave up buying monthlies of vertigo titles a long time ago and just put the trades on my pull list.

[red snow]

So considering how long it is since anyone posted here I guess the board at least is underwhelmed by DC's big spangly "it's not a relaunch reboot"

With only a week until the "death" of current continuity is anyone looking forward to the new number 1s?

To be honest I'm thinking they should have decided whether they were going to totally start fresh or not. I can see why they went for half measures (i'm probably sticking to titles that are effectively unchanged) but part of me wishes they'd had the balls to go all out like they are with Superman. As a comics reader i'm used to doing mental gymnastics to make shared universes work but this whole "5 years of superheros" seems hard to reconcile with the virtually unchanged continuity of "green Lantern" and "Batman" (although it's also hard to think how they got through 4 human green lanterns, one of which went evil and was resurrected and several Robins within 5 years). I think the best approach for me will me to treat the disparate title's I'm reading as unrelated. eg Batman isn't in the same continuity as Superman. When I think about it seriously they never were anyhow.

Daniel Abraham made a fairly convincing argument for the DC relaunch although i think at the time he thought it was being fully relaunched so I guess he'd only be half supporting it now.

So what will I pick up. Pretty much the same as before. Scott Snyder has convinced me to give his Batman a try (as he was doing a damn good job on Detective) and I'll read Batwoman thanks to the strong art and the fact the story is probably unchanged. Morrison has me morbidly curious to see what he's doing with Superman - although I have zero interest in the other titles. All of the Green lantern titles get an initial look.

Justice League I'd usually buy but Jim Lee is a creator who has let me down with schedules too often (almost as bad as Kevin Smith). I may pick up a trade in 2 years time when the first arc is complete if reviews are good.

Stormwatch and some of the Wildstorm titles may be worth a shot just to see how they fit.

At the end of the day DC has done a good job of lightening my comic reading bill. I will fully commend them on the digital initiative though as i think that's how i will purchase any of the titles that get positive reviews in a month or so when the digital price decreases. Comics take up too much room so i need to make the change.

[Ouroboros]

They only things that aren't getting changed are Batman and Green Lantern, because they sell well and the writers who have invested the most in the characters the last five odd years are their star talent. Even still, they are getting background tweaks that will just cause massive headaches for future writers, such as the changes necessary to fit them into the continuity of every other series in the continuity.

Personally I hate the changes they're pulling on Superman. Turning Lois into a bitch and making Clark more 'alien' are just silly changes that smack of making it 'hipper'.

[alguien]

Aren't there legal reasons why Superman is changing? Something about the fallout of all those court cases with Siegel and Schuster's estates?

Btw, IIRC, Gaiman actually wanted to keep Sandman more in the DCU but was told several times in the middle of his run to distance them (that's why he used 'Hyperman' instead of Superman in Game of You).

DC also turned down a chance for him to write a Sandman #0 story that explained what had happened to weaken Morpheus so much that he could be trapped by Roderick Burgess.

DC comics are fucking idiots.

In other "reboot" news, I'm sort of wondering how the new latino/african american Spider-man will turn out.

I don't mind that they're going in this route (though there already was an Indian Spider-man), I was just sad that they had to kill off Ultimate Peter Parker to do it. Seemed rather unnecessary and rude sendoff to one of the best characters in the Ultimate line-up.

'course, I'm sure he'll be back. How long did Superboy stay dead for in Infinite Crisis? Like a year?

[red snow]

Never knew gaiman wanted sandman to be more in the dcu. I naively thought it was other way around. in long run i think it was wise to separate them or we would have the endless comic in the relaunch.

As far as new ultimate spidey is concerned i only hope it meams we will get to see troy from community play spiderman

[Lannes]

Makes me glad I put my collection in long term storage and walked away back in the late 80's when all the tie-in crap started whereby you had to buy 10 or 12 titles just to keep up with one storyline- No thanks. :tantrum:

This "Let's reboot everything every few years" crap would've driven me insane...

[red snow]

I read the last part of Flashpoint. The main series was ok while some of the tie-ins were excellent. The most impressive was the Batman mini. Ironically one of the best Batman tales in years and I could see it becoming a staple "batman" tale. There are some excellent twists and they all make thematic sense and the ending is bittersweet. I'd urge any batman fan to read that title alone as it's a treat and like all good elseworld tales will have you wishing there could have been more.

As for details on Flashpoint #5 I'd have to say it was middling but did do a good job of explaining the reboot. In more detail

It was basically all Barry's (the Flash) fault that the Flashpoint occurred. He was the one who tried to save his mum and because it was the first time he tried to alter the past (or more accurately reset it) he unleashed a fracture through time that altered those he knew the most. So it was all Barry's fault. That's fine as long as he hit the reset switch but the main problem i see now is that technically the entire reboot is Batty's fault. In the issue he points out he is forgetting the past which means he wont necessarily know exactly how to change things back. So in a way the heavy reboots are because BArry forgot about them. It's kind of odd as aside from Crisis on infinite worlds Barry didn't even witness most of the things that occurred that have been kept. It does keep Blacknest night/brightest day intact I guess. The worrying thing is that it means he managed to totally forget his protege Wally West and his predecessor Jay Garrick which seems pretty shitty of him considering he thinks more of Batman and Hal Jordan. Of course they can take the blame away from Barry by saying it's the weird hooded woman's fault. She pops up as the Flash tries to "fix" time and says she has to unite the 3 timelines that were separated (The DCU, Wildstorm and another maybe milestone or some of the vertigo charactes?) in order to prepare them for some kind of invasion. Bleeding cool has pointed out that this character has already popped up in the background of Justice League and preview pages of other 52 titles and that it may be some anti-time trapper. Hopefully this doesn't mean there'll be a an epic 6 month 52 titles a month mega crossover next september. I suspect it's more of a "get out of jail free" card if the reboot goes wrong.

I guesss people will have a better idea on the reboot at the end of the month. I haven't bothered with Justice League. The reviews suggest it'll be a 6 issues to get a 2 part story. Just as well I'm waiting for the trade, which with Jim Lee drawing means it will arrive sometime in 2014.

[Knight of Ashes]

I'm not all that interested in the reboot but as long as Geoff Johns is off the Flash that suits me just fine.

[red snow]

I'm not all that interested in the reboot but as long as Geoff Johns is off the Flash that suits me just fine.

The only downside is that it's now written and drawn by the artist who worked on the recent run of Flash by Johns. Unless they have regular fill-in artists, I can only envisage even worse delays (his workload's doubled). Plus there's also the worry that the guy will imitate Johns' run. To be honest I don't think Johns' run had the time to set itself up - although i do admit it was the weakest of Johns' reborn/relaunches.

My other problem with the new series is linked to how the DCnU was created and how it's essentially Barry Allen's fault. Maybe if the new series has him remembering these events it could be interesting but i'll also be steering clear of this one.