Survivor: South Pacific

[Tears of Lys]

Thanks for the updates, guys.

I gotta admit that when I took Coach as my av, it was as a joke, since he had never shown any ability at playing Survivor in the past; however, it seems it's turning out as a wise move. I never knew he had it in him.

ETA: Here's the full picture of my av, showing Coach in all his magnetic glory. http://www.google.com/imgres?q=Coach+survivor&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1W1ADRA_enUS392&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnsu&tbnid=p3jAq_EiYIr3eM:&imgrefurl=http://paulkoidis.wordpress.com/2010/08/12/survivors-coach/&docid=bl1KEWu4BSFL1M&imgurl=http://paulkoidis.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/wade.jpeg%253Fw%253D187%2526h%253D270&w=187&h=270&ei=ZB-yTq-UFIiJgweztZmqAQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=611&vpy=133&dur=242&hovh=216&hovw=149&tx=84&ty=127&sig=111374076779971947075&page=3&tbnh=139&tbnw=96&start=42&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:42&biw=1280&bih=656

[GrimTuesday]

Coach's shit about being bullied was so stupid. I bet it was because he went around calling himself The Dragonslayer or some bullshit like that. I don't get why they didn't go after Jim, Cochran knew he is a schemer, why would you keep that around? Also, it was completely asinine of the former Savaii members to expect Cochran to stay loyal after the way they treated him, I would have sold them down the river in a heartbeat had I been him (but I wouldn't have told anyone). Also, Brandon still irritates me what with his "They'll never hurt you again" bullshit, they were mean to him, they didn't sexually abuse him.

[Gertrude]

Ozzie, Ozzie ... if they Upolu didn't realize it was a set up from the minute they saw you at Redemption, then any doubt was erased when you opened your mouth. *sigh*. And yes, I know you were planning on playing the idol that night anyway, but announcing it in the way you did ... *sigh* Just not any semblance of strategy to go along with your athletic dominance. I don't really want to go into what a deserving winner looks like again, but those who disparage someone because they don't win any challenges - Sandra is the most obvious example - tell me why Ozzie would be a more deserving winner again? I personally find someone who has a balance of all three aspects the most satisfying winner (strategy, social and physical), but just pure physicality is last on my list of importance.

And Cochran ... I am torn on him. Yeah, he did theoretically put himself at #7 rather than #6, but he was feeling he was a pretty solid number 6. Even if he wasn't and people had plans to keep him around, no one really gave him that impression. With the flip, he can probably count on being at least #4 or 5. The Uplou are a solid 6. You think that they are going to get every last Savaii off before they cannibalize each other? Having Cochrane there means he becomes a swing vote when they splinter. And he is now a perfect goat to take to the finals because all of the Savaii jury hate his guts. Then again, his tribe was sitting pretty numbers wise and he could have picked up a few to get further. Jury is still out on that move for me, to be honest. I think perhaps ultimately it wasn't a winning move. It may help him get farther, but I can't see him getting many votes if he goes all the way.

I agree that Savaii's fatal flaw was that they told Cochrane who was going to get the idol. I am surprised as hell that Jim didn't try to protect against this and pretty much for that reason I am glad Cochrane flipped. They had the advantage via immunity and the idol and forgot that they had not done a damn thing to secure Cochrane's loyalty all game. Pride goeth before a fall. I was glad to see that Cochrane gave Ozzie back the idol with no drama though. I was pretty sure he was gonna, but was still relieved to see it.

[Sivin]

Also, Brandon still irritates me what with his "They'll never hurt you again" bullshit, they were mean to him, they didn't sexually abuse him.

Yeah, I agree that it was a little much. But he was afraid that they were going to beat the hell out of him, and it wasn't entirely unjustified fear, because Jim seems kinda... raw.

[Howdyphillip]

Yeah, I agree that it was a little much. But he was afraid that they were going to beat the hell out of him, and it wasn't entirely unjustified fear, because Jim seems kinda... raw.

Just a side note... If a player strikes another player outside of challenges that are specifically designed for that then they are ejected from the game. One of my strategies if I were to ever play the game would be to get someone to hit me.

Cochrane is in no physical danger which makes Brandon's "stick with me" all the more obnoxious. I bet that I could get Brandon to hit me...

[awesome possum]

While Brandon's "stick close to me" was a little much, I cheered internally when he turned on Jim after Jim had spat "Coward!" at Cochran a couple times. I forget what he said exactly, but it was something like, "Don't say that. You guys saying stuff like that is exactly why he turned on you in the first place."

Jim's face at that point was priceless.

What was not priceless was Cochran's weaselly little almost immediately after the vote to tell Ozzy and Jim, "I swapped. I'll explain later." No, you'll try to explain later but what you fail to grasp is you shouldn't have to explain. You just basically killed the chance at $1 million for every member of your tribe. There is no explanation for that. Don't try. Don't even think about trying. These people are all going to dislike you, maybe even hate you for a while.

This is what I really really really want to happen the next two weeks: Jim gets in Albert's ear about taking Cochran out, because you can't trust a rat, etc. etc. and how Cochran would make a perfect goat to take all the way to the finals, which means Albert would probably be left hanging. Cochran is then voted out, where he has to deal with Keith's hate on RI. Then comes the duel and Keith is so sloppily confident that Cochran beats him.

I don't really want to go into what a deserving winner looks like again, but those who disparage someone because they don't win any challenges - Sandra is the most obvious example - tell me why Ozzie would be a more deserving winner again? I personally find someone who has a balance of all three aspects the most satisfying winner (strategy, social and physical), but just pure physicality is last on my list of importance.

Sandra is a bad example, because she didn't really do any of the three. I guess an argument could be made for social - but had she been in the driver's seat alliance, her attitude would have become incredibly grating very quickly.

Pure physicality comes into play in seasons like this. Upolu has the obvious advantage now. They have the numbers to slowly pick off Savaii one-by-one. But if Ozzy manages to win every single immunity challenge and earns himself a spot in the finals? He'll have a real chance compared to someone like Sandra or Edna, who are useless all around and only make it so far because everyone knows they're useless.

[Ken Stone]

Cochran to the finals. He's been getting a finals edit for awhile. It seems like he's the focus at minimum 35% of each episode.

I was wondering why Ozzy played the idol on the first vote. Why not wait through the first vote so you know who they are targeting, and play it on the second vote. There is always the possibility that they would anticipate it and planned ahead of time to switch after the first vote, but maybe not.

As for Cochran, great move all the way around. Even the bad part, that his former tribe hates him, is helpful. After all a sure fire way to get to the Finals is to have a jury that hates you. Not only that, but he is #7 and weak. That is incredibly important. It means he is always a swing vote. All the way to #3.

ETA: Also think we got a good example of why loyalty is more important than numbers when it comes to the merge.

[Lord of Oop North]

Wasn't it specifically mentioned that it had to be played at the first vote?

[Gertrude]

Pure physicality comes into play in seasons like this. Upolu has the obvious advantage now. They have the numbers to slowly pick off Savaii one-by-one. But if Ozzy manages to win every single immunity challenge and earns himself a spot in the finals? He'll have a real chance compared to someone like Sandra or Edna, who are useless all around and only make it so far because everyone knows they're useless.

I know why being a physical threat can be an asset in situations like this, I just don't see why it's more deserving when all other facets of the game are absent. *shrug* just my opinion.

[awesome possum]

Wasn't it specifically mentioned that it had to be played at the first vote?

Yep, since the second vote can only be for the two who have the tie.

I know why being a physical threat can be an asset in situations like this, I just don't see why it's more deserving when all other facets of the game are absent. *shrug* just my opinion.

More deserving than someone like Sandra, who used none of the facets? I guess one could argue she used the social aspect, but that's only because she wasn't in control. Her personality was such that if she were in control of the tribe, people would have hated her as much as Russell.

I guess it comes down to Outwit, Outplay, Outlast. A guy like Ozzy can use his ability to Outplay others to Outlast them - and even if he has zero talent in the Outwit category he's trying. Someone like Sandra on the other hand just managed to Outlast - through no skills or abilities or moves of her own. I'll take someone who is at least trying over someone who is just there for the ride and lucks into her circumstances.

[Howdyphillip]

Yep, since the second vote can only be for the two who have the tie.

More deserving than someone like Sandra, who used none of the facets? I guess one could argue she used the social aspect, but that's only because she wasn't in control. Her personality was such that if she were in control of the tribe, people would have hated her as much as Russell.

I guess it comes down to Outwit, Outplay, Outlast. A guy like Ozzy can use his ability to Outplay others to Outlast them - and even if he has zero talent in the Outwit category he's trying. Someone like Sandra on the other hand just managed to Outlast - through no skills or abilities or moves of her own. I'll take someone who is at least trying over someone who is just there for the ride and lucks into her circumstances.

I disagree with your assessment of Sandra. I personally think that she is the best player of the game to ever play.Twice, she was on a non dominant tribe after the merge, and she won twice without ever winning an immunity challenge. She was a master manipulator and was able to stir up just enough to always deflect the vote away from her every single tribal council.

[Slurktan]

I disagree with your assessment of Sandra. I personally think that she is the best player of the game to ever play.Twice, she was on a non dominant tribe after the merge, and she won twice without ever winning an immunity challenge. She was a master manipulator and was able to stir up just enough to always deflect the vote away from her every single tribal council.

Umm what? On Pearl Islands her tribe was dominant until Fairplay turned on Rupert. On HvV after JT's brilliance her tribe was dominant. She wasn't a master manipulator at all, for instance she tried to flip people against Russell every vote in HvV but sucked so fucking hard at it that no one took her seriously. She was literally a nothing that Russell and Parvati took to the end. The same on Pearl Islands. She was carried by Fairplay and Burton because she was so absolutely useless. At least she had one decent move in Pearl Islands in that she got the girl scout to flip on Burton and Fairplay.

[awesome possum]

Yeah, Sandra was a near-complete non-factor in both seasons she played. She made one major move and the rest of the time was little more than a sarcastic set-piece who was such a non-threat that she slid through to the end of both seasons. She made a good move in Pearl Islands (after Burton, Fairplay and Lil had done all the heavy lifting for her), but did absolutely nothing to deserve the win in HvV. Nothing.

She won twice so technically she's the "best" Survivor player, but when you look at actual gameplay? She was terrible.

[Ken Stone]

Yep, since the second vote can only be for the two who have the tie.

More deserving than someone like Sandra, who used none of the facets? I guess one could argue she used the social aspect, but that's only because she wasn't in control. Her personality was such that if she were in control of the tribe, people would have hated her as much as Russell.

I guess it comes down to Outwit, Outplay, Outlast. A guy like Ozzy can use his ability to Outplay others to Outlast them - and even if he has zero talent in the Outwit category he's trying. Someone like Sandra on the other hand just managed to Outlast - through no skills or abilities or moves of her own. I'll take someone who is at least trying over someone who is just there for the ride and lucks into her circumstances.

One thing I liked about Sandra is her strategy. Most people come into the game and are like "I want to be the provider" or "I'm going to go under the radar". Her strategy coming in was "vote anyone but me", and her tactics flowed from that. She would vote for anyone any time, as long as her name wasn't written down she was good with it.

That strategy is much more subtle than people give it credit for. It isn't coattail riding, because if you are riding the coattails of someone who slips up, you go down too. In essence what she by her willingness to vote anyone, anytime is create a situation where she was valuable to everyone. No one would vote her off because you always knew if you needed one more vote to get the numbers you had it.

You can poo-poo it as much as you want but I am surprised that no one else has followed suit. It's clearly a winning strategy, but people get so involved in "I'm on this tribe" or "I'm in an alliance with this person" that they miss the forest. You don't have to make plans to make it to final 5 or final 3. You just have to make it through the next TC.

[awesome possum]

One thing I liked about Sandra is her strategy. Most people come into the game and are like "I want to be the provider" or "I'm going to go under the radar". Her strategy coming in was "vote anyone but me", and her tactics flowed from that. She would vote for anyone any time, as long as her name wasn't written down she was good with it.

That was her strategy for HvV, but not so much Pearl Islands. She was part of a few alliances then, and she was blindsided when Rupert was voted out and blindsided again when Christa was kept over Lil.

I wouldn't quite say her strategy worked for her in Heroes vs. Villains. If she were any type of physical or strategic threat she would have been voted out with that strategy. Since she was completely pathetic during the game and did absolutely nothing, she was kept. Not because she would vote for anyone, but because she was worthless and a perfect goat: a former winner who did absolutely nothing but get dragged to the finals. Her "strategy" had nothing to do with it.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Since she was completely pathetic during the game and did absolutely nothing, she was kept. Not because she would vote for anyone, but because she was worthless and a perfect goat: Her "strategy" had nothing to do with it.

Kinda like Natalie...

[awesome possum]

Kinda like Natalie...

I'd say Sandra in Pearl Islands is most like Natalie. Made one big move that helped propel her to the finals (and even then she needed Lil's hate of Fairplay to make her choose Sandra over Jon) and won because everyone on the jury hated the other person more than her.

Sandra in Heroes vs. Villains did nothing. She was entertaining in her confessionals, but nothing impactful in the game.

[Sivin]

Just a side note... If a player strikes another player outside of challenges that are specifically designed for that then they are ejected from the game. One of my strategies if I were to ever play the game would be to get someone to hit me.

Cochrane is in no physical danger which makes Brandon's "stick with me" all the more obnoxious. I bet that I could get Brandon to hit me...

Yeah, I wasn't think about that, so I agree that it was over the top. But if Jim is going to get angry enough to hit him, it wouldn't matter if 1 million dollars was at stake. He'd do it anyway. But, yeah, I agree with you.

Cochran to the finals. He's been getting a finals edit for awhile. It seems like he's the focus at minimum 35% of each episode.

Ken Stone, I only quoted some of your post, but I agree with pretty much everything you wrote.

I disagree with your assessment of Sandra. I personally think that she is the best player of the game to ever play.Twice, she was on a non dominant tribe after the merge, and she won twice without ever winning an immunity challenge. She was a master manipulator and was able to stir up just enough to always deflect the vote away from her every single tribal council.

No.

Everyone has pretty much covered this, but the only thing Sandra ever did was manage to not get voted out. Which isn't anything to scoff at, but it's not deserving of "master manipulator". In fact (as others have pointed out), she tried to get Russell voted out every TC of the season in HvV. In fact, that's the only reason she won; she was an obvious enemy of Russell, and when everyone saw what he was, they hated him enough (and to a lesser extent Parvarti) that they went with the one who they could most stomach giving a million dollars to.

My opinion of course.

[The Imp's Advocate]

Eh, it all depends on what the point of the game is. If the point is to dominate, make waves and look stylish doing it, to own everyone physically, or to manipulate everyone behind the scenes, then yes, Sandra is not a very good contestant.

But the game is called Survivor. There's niches for lions and field mice in nature, there are lots of ways to survive. Camouflage and unobtrusiveness got her to the end. She survived, twice. Its not as dramatic or entertaining for the viewer, but she's a good player, by the definition of the game.

Managing to "not get voted out" is everything.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Managing to "not get voted out" is everything.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z33/tcastro2416/silly%20crap/Russell-Hantz.jpg

One would think...