NFL 11 push to the playoffs

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I think you have to factor rushing yardage and TDs into your assessment of MVP as well, Phillip. Brees is a badass who's having a fantastic season, no doubt, but Rodgers is on another level.

[awesome possum]

Cutler gets injured (going for a tough open field tackle after his receiver missed the catch) and the Bears start Hanie in the next game. I can't imagine a team -not- starting their no.2 QB. If he is not the no.2 QB then why isn't McCown or someone else the no.2 QB?

As Jax said, it's who the #2 was. Yes, Hanie earned a ton of good will for his performance in the NFCCG, but the Bears balked on getting rid of him that preseason after Martz gave him the thumbs down before the game happened. They even drafted a QB specifically for Martz, Dan Lafevor or something, who was shortly snatched off the practice squad. And the guy they squaded him for, Hanie, the team had such low esteem for that they went out and got Todd freaking Collins as a backup plan.

And why? Caleb Hanie was an undrafted free agent, and gets paid like it, so it's not like they have a bunch invested in him. It's kind of mind-boggling, when you think about it. They purposely kept a guy at #2 who they had no faith in, and whose style didn't jive with what the person in charge of the offense is wanting to do. Is it because he's Cutler's friend? You'd think if you're going to help out the franchise QB you paid a ton for, you'd equip him with role players to put around him, not a drinking buddy.

In Hanie's first start Forte, one of the best RBs in the NFL, gets injured. The Bears lose that game. I personally do not think they would have lost it if Forte were in the game.

Actually, Forte got injured in the next game. He played in this one, but the Raiders defense keyed in on him big time to the tune of 20 rushes for 59 yards, and about 25 yards of receiving.

Hanie totally cost the Bears that game. His pick at the end of the first half saw the Bears with an all-but-guaranteed field goal at the very least. The interception ended with the Raiders in field goal range. In what turned out to be a five-point game, those points Hanie threw away and gave to the Raiders were the difference.

I don't think the Bears coaching staff should be blamed so much for this QB situation.

They shouldn't. Jerry Angelo should. His offensive coordinator told him- two years in a row- that he he didn't trust this guy in his offense. His head coach told him he needed to go get a veteran backup because he didn't trust Hanie. And the guy somehow kept his job as #2 through it all.

As for the Bears future... my only thoughts would be: improve the O-line, get a talented WR, and make an offense which highlights the strengths of the talent they have.

I doubt anything will be done to the O-line, though they need a bonafide LT. Everyone else I'm strangely comfortable with. I think Chris Williams has turned into a very serviceable LG and Edwin Williams has done a fine job since he went on IR. Garza, Chris Spencer, and Lance Louis make a good platoon at C and RG and Carimi will hopefully pan out. It's a little worrisome though when your RT/LT of the next decade is on his third or fourth knee surgery in a year... his rookie year.

WR should be one of the big areas where they make a splash. I'm hoping against hope for Dwayne Bowe.

I'm also crossing my fingers they go big after Carlos Rogers and maybe steal Cliff Avril away from the Lions.

Blackhawks!!! Hey, having the Blackhawks and Bulls in town aint so bad!!

Meh. It's nice when they're doing well, but I don't really pay attention to either sport. And both have won fairly recently. It's been a while for the Bulls, but the Jordan/Pippen dynasty still feels fresh 15 years later.

I'm much more excited when the Bears and Cubs are doing well. I think it's because I prefer my heartbreak on a grander scale.

[Sivin]

For Tebow to be humbled requires that the Chargers rally around the Deadman Walking corpse of Norv Turner and somehow beat Oakland. I hope this happens.

I don't mean to be disrespectful to the dead, but am I the only one who thinks that Norv Turner is starting to look just as decrepit as Al Davis was at the end?

And why? Caleb Hanie was an undrafted free agent, and gets paid like it, so it's not like they have a bunch invested in him. It's kind of mind-boggling, when you think about it. They purposely kept a guy at #2 who they had no faith in, and whose style didn't jive with what the person in charge of the offense is wanting to do. Is it because he's Cutler's friend? You'd think if you're going to help out the franchise QB you paid a ton for, you'd equip him with role players to put around him, not a drinking buddy.

Jay strikes me as the kind of guy who either doesn't drink at all, or who is sauced up by the morning film session.

Hanie totally cost the Bears that game. His pick at the end of the first half saw the Bears with an all-but-guaranteed field goal at the very least. The interception ended with the Raiders in field goal range. In what turned out to be a five-point game, those points Hanie threw away and gave to the Raiders were the difference.

Don't forget about the intentional-grounding penalty when they were in range for a quick-out or a Hail-Mary.

[Greywolf2375]

Yards means that you are getting your team in position to score more.... It is a team game. Who cares who scores the actual points? The person making those chances available has always been the most recognized. That is why the rushing record has always been the most important record in football. Now that the game is dramatically shifting, I think the passing record may eventually take over.

People argue about this all the time, but the defense gets it's ranking by how few yards they allow. Yards are the measuring stick in this game, not points.

Not sure how you think that actually supports your argument since the QB is not the one actually scoring - he is setting up the receiver to score, the epitome of team game.

If yards were the measuring stick, Brees & NO's record would then be better - or is it that at the end of the game they actually count the points scored in there as well?

[Howdyphillip]

If yards were the measuring stick, Brees & NO's record would then be better - or is it that at the end of the game they actually count the points scored in there as well?

They count all the points scored in the game. The wining team and losing team's score is tallied. The defense can score, running backs can score, a QB can have four one yard TD passes. Calculating how many TD's a QB throws is not an accurate measurement of a QB's performance, and counting win/loss records is completely inaccurate and does not even begin to tell the story.

Yards thrown, and yards ran has always been how you evaluate the positions of QB and RB... This is not a groundbreaking discussion. I am not completely discounting TD's to INT. Those are incredibly important as well, but the first stat you look at to determine what kind of year a QB had is yards thrown.

Brees did this year what no one in the history of the game has done. Rodgers had an incredible year. Rodger's will probably win the MVP as that is a more subjective award, but I would be surprised if Brees didn't win Offensive Player of the year as his stats are stronger than Rodgers. I personally would vote for Brees for MVP and I am not a Saints fan by any stretch of the imagination. As a matter of fact, I usually actively root against them.

Just saying so you don't think I am a fanboy. I am however completely blind to anything negative about my Cowboys.....

[Jaxom 1974]

They shouldn't. Jerry Angelo should. His offensive coordinator told him- two years in a row- that he he didn't trust this guy in his offense. His head coach told him he needed to go get a veteran backup because he didn't trust Hanie. And the guy somehow kept his job as #2 through it all.

Sorry, AP, but Lovie Smith does NOT get a pass on this one. He's been the one with the weight and the power since the Superbowl appearance. He's had to known full well what he had in Caleb Hanie BEFORE Martz got here. If he didn't, then he's an even worse evaluator of talent than I already think he is. Or he simply doesn't care because it's an offensive position and he's still one of those anachronisms in the league who believes you only need a really strong defense to win in the current NFL.

I also still fault him for being unable to not speak in double talk rather than simply facing ugly truths that everyone already knows and acknowledges. That Enderly isn't getting the start this week is a horrible call. If McCown is truly in the running for the back up spot, all well and good, but he's also a veteran who showed last week he'll be more than capable of putting a band aid on the job in a spot start (and maybe even win a game if it isn't against a team like Green Bay). You already know what you have in him. But once again, with an untested commodity in Enderly, you have a shot to see how he does in real game situations, not practice (where he doesn't get reps anyway to show you anything) or pre-season games where you're basically on record as not caring about them in the long run.

Lovie Smith is good at some things as a head coach, but he's terrible in a lot of the ones that count for proper long term longevity in the NFL. He evaluates talent poorly (or not at all), he doesn't see to the development of the players he does have, he seems to have a disdain for younger players in general and he's shown he still has next to no sense of what to do on the offensive side of the ball even after all of these years as a head coach.

He should have been gone years ago and he needs to go now. This Bears ownership needs to look at itself closely and then look to the North Side and pull a Theo and do a total house cleaning and restructuring. Until they do, with the rise of the Lions and the Packers being as strong as they are, you can kiss any consistent playoff hopes goodbye for a good long time.

I doubt anything will be done to the O-line, though they need a bonafide LT. Everyone else I'm strangely comfortable with. I think Chris Williams has turned into a very serviceable LG and Edwin Williams has done a fine job since he went on IR. Garza, Chris Spencer, and Lance Louis make a good platoon at C and RG and Carimi will hopefully pan out. It's a little worrisome though when your RT/LT of the next decade is on his third or fourth knee surgery in a year... his rookie year.

WR should be one of the big areas where they make a splash. I'm hoping against hope for Dwayne Bowe.

I'm also crossing my fingers they go big after Carlos Rogers and maybe steal Cliff Avril away from the Lions.

Ah to dream big...Dwayne Bowe would be the WR to go after, since you probably cannot get D. Jackson, Welker, S. Johnson or Manningham away from their current teams. You gotta believe those guys will all resign where they are now, while Bowe will probably jump at the chance to play somewhere other than Kansas City at this point...SIgning Bowe also has the earmarks of a Jerry Angelo placation move. "Get one big name free agent in and that'll keep the fans content, thus I don't have to worry about anything else...now what Defensive Linemen are available in the draft and already injured I can concentrate on?"

[awesome possum]

Sorry, AP, but Lovie Smith does NOT get a pass on this one.

He was also the one who wanted to bring in a veteran QB because he had no faith in Hanie.

He should have been gone years ago and he needs to go now. This Bears ownership needs to look at itself closely and then look to the North Side and pull a Theo and do a total house cleaning and restructuring. Until they do, with the rise of the Lions and the Packers being as strong as they are, you can kiss any consistent playoff hopes goodbye for a good long time.

I disagree. I like Lovie. He's done as good a job as possible being hamstrung by Angelo's piss poor personnell decisions.

As far as consistent playoff hopes... remember where we were before Cutler went down with our shitty offense? 7-3, considered one of the top 5 teams in the league by many and one of the only teams capable of upending Green Bay. The injuries killed us, as they would any team late in the season. I don't care who you are, if you lose your star QB, your RB (who is also your top WR) and then your top WR late in the season for the rest of the season, you're done. When you lose them on a team that relies on the QB and RB completely, you're not just done, you're terrible.

The injuries were actually the best thing that could happened to the Bears. If they'd made it to the playoffs and won a game, then we'd have seen complacent Angelo. As it is now, they can't ignore the glaring holes on the squad.

Blowing the team up now would just set everything back. I want to give Lovie and yes, even Angelo and Mike freaking Martz, one more year. The window of opportunity for the defense- in my mind- will be closed after next season. They need to go All-In this off-season. Anything less than the Super Bowl will be a disappointment next season.

Ah to dream big...Dwayne Bowe would be the WR to go after, since you probably cannot get D. Jackson, Welker, S. Johnson or Manningham away from their current teams. You gotta believe those guys will all resign where they are now, while Bowe will probably jump at the chance to play somewhere other than Kansas City at this point...SIgning Bowe also has the earmarks of a Jerry Angelo placation move. "Get one big name free agent in and that'll keep the fans content, thus I don't have to worry about anything else...now what Defensive Linemen are available in the draft and already injured I can concentrate on?"

I don't want Vincent or Desean Jackson or Wes Welker, though I'd take Stevie Johnson and Manningham. I prefer Bowe, though. He's put up good numbers with no help in KC.

[Jaxom 1974]

He was also the one who wanted to bring in a veteran QB because he had no faith in Hanie.

Veteran QB was even more a Martz thing I think though. If Lovie truly had no faith in Hanie, then he had four years and the power and swagger that came from making the Superbowl to effect that change. He didn't. And in that time of 4 seasons, Lovie did nothing to develop Hanie. Perhaps if he did, and he truly wanted a better back up QB, then he'd've been able to have made his case a long time ago and perhaps a veteran back up QB not named Todd Collins could have been found.

I disagree. I like Lovie. He's done as good a job as possible being hamstrung by Angelo's piss poor personnell decisions.

As far as consistent playoff hopes... remember where we were before Cutler went down with our shitty offense? 7-3, considered one of the top 5 teams in the league by many and one of the only teams capable of upending Green Bay. The injuries killed us, as they would any team late in the season. I don't care who you are, if you lose your star QB, your RB (who is also your top WR) and then your top WR late in the season for the rest of the season, you're done. When you lose them on a team that relies on the QB and RB completely, you're not just done, you're terrible.

The injuries were actually the best thing that could happened to the Bears. If they'd made it to the playoffs and won a game, then we'd have seen complacent Angelo. As it is now, they can't ignore the glaring holes on the squad.

Blowing the team up now would just set everything back. I want to give Lovie and yes, even Angelo and Mike freaking Martz, one more year. The window of opportunity for the defense- in my mind- will be closed after next season. They need to go All-In this off-season. Anything less than the Super Bowl will be a disappointment next season.

I think you miss the ultimate point here. Yes, Angelo's personel decisions have been really terrible over all. But that simply indicts Lovie in that he's done little to nothing to fight for what he actually thinks he needs on this team. But to listen to him, you don't get the impression he's thinking the Bears need anything.

Injuries this season only proved to the world what a lot of smart football analysts already knew: The Bears have ZERO depth and none of the younger players on the team (who aren't drafted injured) have been developed. This Bears team was 7-3 because of the play of Jay Cutler. One of the only moves Jerry and Lovie have made that has been great, but they stopped there. No WRs. No fixing the Offensive Line. No depth and no development of players. Neither guy seems capable of evaluatiing talent in a sensible way. They both were living in a house of cards built on the idea that Jay would never get hurt, so no need to have a back up plan of any sort. Imagine what might have happened if they had had a prepared back up QB who got to play with a O-Line that wasn't patchwork, WRs who knew how to run routes and hold on to the ball and a scheme that actually used the TEs...but Lovie doesn't prepare his teams that way because he lives with his head in the sand.

This team has already been blown up. It has been for years. The only problem is that the management team hasn't realized it yet and gone away...

[Jaime L]

Yeah - While Brees has currently set the yardage record, Rodgers is also currently sitting with the best passer rating, and he's markedly ahead of Brees and Brady. Even if the yardage argument was strong the TD/INT thing looms large. 45-6 for Rodgers. In the fucking NFL.

One thing on that, and it's interesting because I wouldn't have expected it, but FO still has Brady in '07 and '10 and Manning in '04 having higher DVOAs (value on a per play basis) than Rodgers this year. It's surprising because Rodgers has been just killing it on deep balls all year and his conventional stats are arguably the best ever and he's had something like 100 fewer attempts than Brees. Could just be a case of "latest is greatest" syndrome - after all Brady to Moss basically perfected the deep ball in '07 - so think it's easy to forget just how dominant those seasons were.

But why I think Rodgers is coming up short in their metrics is because all of FO stats are adjusted for the opponents played. And there just isn't any defense in the NFL anymore. You can pretty chart the decline from '04 through '07 to its nadir this year. So while he's ripping teams arguably better than anyone, it's getting diluted when you factor in opponent adjustments and the fact that they have the most dominant defense this season being roughly as good as the sixth best offense. That's crazy, the system is designed so the two balance, but clearly they're going to have recalibrate after another season of rule changes that have all continued to help offenses and hurt defenses, as they have every year since '04.

It doesn't mean Rodgers isn't having the best season ever, and he's got a great chance to boost his case come playoff time (after all Manning in '04 and Brady in '07 and '10 didn't win Superbowls), just means that according to their metrics his is about the fourth best ever. And Brees? He's even behind Brady this year according to their rankings so doesn't even rate historically. Think their models should be taken with a heaping grain of salt but jus throwing it out there.

[awesome possum]

Veteran QB was even more a Martz thing I think though. If Lovie truly had no faith in Hanie, then he had four years and the power and swagger that came from making the Superbowl to effect that change. He didn't.

You may be right in Martz wanting a veteran, and in that case Lovie does own some of the blame for not making it happen.

However, the power and swagger that came with making the Super Bowl? It was gone within two years, when Angelo had to go out and get Cutler. In 2007 we still had Rex and Orton and we added Brian Griese. Hanie arrived in 2008, and by all accounts until Martz arrived he was supposedly a steal for an undrafted free agent. Yes, this is either a failure on management and coaching for thinking so, but the truth may be that Hanie is a decent backup QB, just a terrible Martz offense QB. In which case the blame again falls on Angelo. You went out and got a coordinator who runs a specific offense and he then tells you that this backup QB is not a good fit for his offense. You should make that change, instead of being complacent.

And in that time of 4 seasons, Lovie did nothing to develop Hanie.

I didn't realize it was the head coach's job to develop the teams backup QBs.

I think you miss the ultimate point here. Yes, Angelo's personel decisions have been really terrible over all. But that simply indicts Lovie in that he's done little to nothing to fight for what he actually thinks he needs on this team. But to listen to him, you don't get the impression he's thinking the Bears need anything.

Most coaches talk like that, just like most players do. They say the things they're supposed to say to the cameras.

Injuries this season only proved to the world what a lot of smart football analysts already knew: The Bears have ZERO depth and none of the younger players on the team (who aren't drafted injured) have been developed.

None of the players? Henry Melton has the most sacks for a Bears DT since Tommie Harris in 2006. DJ Moore is a kick ass little nickleback. Craig Steltz has been developing on the bench and ST for years and he has come in and did a damned good job at safety. Lance Louis (before his meltdown in the Broncos or Seahawks game) looked like the stud lineman both Tice and Lovie said he could be. Chris Williams, who didn't pan out at LT, should be our RG for the next five+ years. If Carimi can recover from his knee surgeries, we have a hell of a good young core at OL, something fans have been complaining about for years.

Nick Roach, Corey Graham, Earl Bennett, Johnny Knox (for all the knocks on him, barring injuries he could have had two 1,000 yard seasons the last two years), Matt Forte, Khalil Bell... all those are young players who have been developed and who help the Bears through various ways.

This Bears team was 7-3 because of the play of Jay Cutler. One of the only moves Jerry and Lovie have made that has been great, but they stopped there. No WRs. No fixing the Offensive Line. No depth and no development of players. Neither guy seems capable of evaluatiing talent in a sensible way. They both were living in a house of cards built on the idea that Jay would never get hurt, so no need to have a back up plan of any sort. Imagine what might have happened if they had had a prepared back up QB who got to play with a O-Line that wasn't patchwork, WRs who knew how to run routes and hold on to the ball and a scheme that actually used the TEs...but Lovie doesn't prepare his teams that way because he lives with his head in the sand.

I don't understand the hate for Lovie. When you think of the top three coaches in Chicago Bears history, there's Papa Bear, Ditka, and Lovie. Is he perfect? No. No coach is. Would I love for him to do things differently? Absolutely. But he's still a great coach who has done well despite being handed a few diamonds in a pile of garbage. I'd say his biggest issue is the cronyism. We kicked Ron Rivera to the curb for Lovie's buddy Bob freaking Babich, who saw the defense go from ranked 5th in the league to 28th. We brought in guys like Orlando Pace, Adam Archuleta, and Brandon Manuateshamuna well after they'd reached their peaks. I don't even know how Daryl Drake has been receivers coach since 2004 and still have a freaking job.

Yes, they did a piss poor job of evaluating the talent around Cutler. Piss poor. With a better, more mature line and receivers I think we would have beat Green Bay in the season finale last season and denied them entrance into the playoffs. That doesn't take away from the fact that they went to the NFCCG last season and were poised to make a playoff run again this year.

Teams just don't get that lucky in the NFL.

This team has already been blown up. It has been for years. The only problem is that the management team hasn't realized it yet and gone away...

I understand where you're at. I was there a week ago. I'll probably be there again on Monday if we lose to the fucking Vikings. But as shitty as this season turned out, it's not all doom and gloom. It's just not. Dumping everyone won't mean we get a group of guys who instantly fix all of our problems. More likely it means we waste the final year(s) of Urlacher, Peppers and Briggs as dominant players.

[Sivin]

Now we all understand how much of a badass Jay Cutler is.

Hey, what happened to that Tim Tebow nutjob who was lurking about a few weeks ago?

[Stego]

Yards are the measuring stick in this game, not points.

Utter nonsense. I can't even begin to argue with this. Points are all that matter. Allowing 1000 yards and 13 points in a game is a wonderful game by the defense.

[Stego]

Now we all understand how much of a badass Jay Cutler is.

Don't say 'all,' please. There are plenty of us that think quite differently about Cutler.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Hey, what happened to that Tim Tebow nutjob who was lurking about a few weeks ago?

It puts the lotion on its' skin or else it gets the hose again.

[Howdyphillip]

Utter nonsense. I can't even begin to argue with this. Points are all that matter. Allowing 1000 yards and 13 points in a game is a wonderful game by the defense.

There are a lot of people that believe this, but the majority agree with me. That is why the defenses in the NFL get their ranking by how many yards are allowed. I think that this is the right way to go about it. If a team's offense keeps turning the ball over on the one yard line, and the opposing team scores four touchdowns that way but only moves the ball 90 yards the whole game, then it isn't the defense that lost.

There is also a set in stone average that says for every 100 yards of offense 7 points are scored. That may not happen every time, but over the course of a season you can pretty much bank on it. If a QB gets his team in position to score more by passing farther, then he has done better than the guy that throws for less and puts it in the endzone more over a season. The points come with the yards whether the final TD comes from the ground or the air doesn't matter.

[awesome possum]

Don't say 'all,' please. There are plenty of us that think quite differently about Cutler.

I'd ask you to elaborate, because I'm curious about how anyone can believe Cutler is still a quitter pussy weakling poopyface-who-stole-my-toys-in-the-sandbox nobody after what he's accomplished this season... but my curiosity is outweighed by my not really caring what a Certified Hater thinks.

It puts the lotion on its' skin or else it gets the hose again.

I imagine it's similar to how Zadok disappears after a Jets shellacking. That or the guy was an alt account all along trolling us for the fun of it.

[Jaime L]

Just realized the Skins have done everything they could possibly do to get the Cowboys into the playoffs and are the sole reason they're still in contention for a spot. They blow both games late to Dallas by somehow allowing Dez Bryant to catch two 15+ yard pass plays in where they could've ended the game each time with an incompletion...and then they also improbably trounced the Giants twice when they didn't trounce anyone else all year.

That's fucked up. Jerry Jones should be sending a gift basket to Ashburn or something.

Hey, what happened to that Tim Tebow nutjob who was lurking about a few weeks ago?

I'm guessing the rapture.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I imagine it's similar to how Zadok disappears after a Jets shellacking. That or the guy was an alt account all along trolling us for the fun of it.

Exactly. If Denver wins this week, he'll be back. If they lose, we won't hear from him til next season, if at all.

[Mexal]

There are a lot of people that believe this, but the majority agree with me. That is why the defenses in the NFL get their ranking by how many yards are allowed. I think that this is the right way to go about it. If a team's offense keeps turning the ball over on the one yard line, and the opposing team scores four touchdowns that way but only moves the ball 90 yards the whole game, then it isn't the defense that lost.

There is also a set in stone average that says for every 100 yards of offense 7 points are scored. That may not happen every time, but over the course of a season you can pretty much bank on it. If a QB gets his team in position to score more by passing farther, then he has done better than the guy that throws for less and puts it in the endzone more over a season. The points come with the yards whether the final TD comes from the ground or the air doesn't matter.

That's simply not true. Converting in the red zone and scoring points is a massive deal. There are a lot of players who play well between the 20s but are unable to get the ball in the end zone. Rodgers does that better than anyone. He makes less mistakes, scores more TDs and allows his defense to play strictly pass defense. The defense may give up 400 yards a games but they are constantly in position to get a turnover because Rodgers is so efficient at scoring TDs. That's why he has less yards; he doesn't turn it over and his defense gets turnovers.

The rankings based on yards suck. There is reason why stat sites like FO and Profootball Focus exist. They are trying to find fairer and more conclusive ways of measuring players/teams than just one measurement that doesn't tell even a quarter of the story.

This isn't to take anything away from Brees but simply saying "he has more yards so he is having a better season" is wrong. If it was true, we could say Eli Manning is almost having as good a season as Rodgers.

[Lord O' Bones]

There are a lot of players who play well between the 20s but are unable to get the ball in the end zone.

There is even a term for that now: "49er."