[Book spoilers] Sansa

[SerMixalot]

I am in the process of reading aSoS and there really isnt alot of meat to show Tyrion in a bad light pre marriage. Some potentially great scenes with tywin but nothing that shows him to be the rapscallion he is.

[Clariana]

I thought her turning down Sandor was an act of courage... That she saw staying in King's Landing as part of her duty emblemised by the doll that Ned gave her, however bitter she found it, and refused to run away like a coward.

[Jamie Lannister]

Anyway, HBO better come up with something good for Sansa, to prevent her from being called the shallow arrogant bitch who should've gone with Sandor.

It'll happen anyway in my opinion when she's forced into marrying Tyrion; they've glossed over pretty much all of Tyrion's flaws, while Sansa is still portrayed as relatively "human," given her situation. To your average viewer, she'll probably come off as a bitch who can't look past Tyrion's deformity (Dinklage's Tyrion is a good-looking, fundamentally kind and intelligent guy who just happens to be a dwarf, after all), when by rights they should be looking at her with a lot more sympathy. It's the danger they're running by making Tyrion the unambiguous hero of the show.

Well, unless they change the intricacies of their mock-marriage... a lot.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I am in the process of reading aSoS and there really isnt alot of meat to show Tyrion in a bad light pre marriage. Some potentially great scenes with tywin but nothing that shows him to be the rapscallion he is.

Maybe they could use the scene with Tywin when Tyrion is told he's going to marry Sansa. He doesn't necessarily think of her as someone he could love, but merely as the Key to the North. That should place him in a bad light, marrying Sansa only for her claim, not caring about what she wants.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

It'll happen anyway in my opinion when she's forced into marrying Tyrion; they've glossed over pretty much all of Tyrion's flaws, while Sansa is still portrayed as relatively "human," given her situation. To your average viewer, she'll probably come off as a bitch who can't look past Tyrion's deformity (Dinklage's Tyrion is a good-looking, fundamentally kind and intelligent guy who just happens to be a dwarf, after all), when by rights they should be looking at her with a lot more sympathy. It's the danger they're running by making Tyrion the unambiguous hero of the show.

Well, unless they change the intricacies of their mock-marriage... a lot.

Haha, nice one. But, they already made Tyrion the unambiguous hero of the show. All of his scenes are flawless, he slaps Joffrey multiple times including the sentence 'Did my hand fall of my wrist?' etc etc. The only scene which could show his flaws is the scene in which he's going to marry Sansa just for her claim. But then the producers should make that very clear which I know they won't.

I already feel sorry for Sansa right now.

[never trust a bard]

The actress was phenomenal this week. Loved her comment to Tyrion. Definitely believe she meant it as we all took it. I think the show's done a fine job of reminding us that Tyrion is hated by the world no matter what good he does. Sure, he gets his credit at the Blackwater, but the whole town blames him for all the harm Joeffrey's done to the kingdom. I think it will be easy for viewers to see why Sansa won't love Tyrion. As long as she remains a "ward" of the Lannisters, her trust/love of any Lannister would seem unbelievable.

[Harrad]

The actress was phenomenal this week. Loved her comment to Tyrion. Definitely believe she meant it as we all took it. I think the show's done a fine job of reminding us that Tyrion is hated by the world no matter what good he does. Sure, he gets his credit at the Blackwater, but the whole town blames him for all the harm Joeffrey's done to the kingdom. I think it will be easy for viewers to see why Sansa won't love Tyrion. As long as she remains a "ward" of the Lannisters, her trust/love of any Lannister would seem unbelievable.

To think that Sansa would think the same of the Lannister that is hitting her as the Lannister that stops the hitting demeans her. If you look at the sequence of events she speaks in a non-robotic way to Tyrion, meaning what she says to him. Then Joffrey comes in the room and she reverts to Robo-San, mouthing the same words and obviously not meaning them.

As far as Tyrion using Sansa for his own purposes in their upcoming wedding....no....Tryion is a good soldier for the Lannisters and agrees to it, despite not wanting to do it. This is clear in the book.

[Juliads]

I thought her turning down Sandor was an act of courage... That she saw staying in King's Landing as part of her duty emblemised by the doll that Ned gave her, however bitter she found it, and refused to run away like a coward.

could be, personally i would have assumed that when the queen had Ned imprisoned, and finally when the new king had him executed that all sense of duty or responsibility she might have felt was gone.

[Grail King]

"Joffrey will. The worst ones always live." Loved it. Sophie is hit or miss with me, but this is baptism by fire. She's not the phenom Maisie is, but she's putting in the work. And, Sansa isn't the easiest role.

I think Maisie is OK, she's no phenom though, she has no real emotional roles as of yet, Sophie on the other hand has to make a entitled spoiled girl going through her flowering, physically watch her father beheaded, beaten by supposed future husband, betrayed by future mother in law, stripped naked, berated as stupid, forced to marry a deformed son of the family who help kill her family seem real and she does; she is emotionally blank when she needs to be, bitchy when needed,caring, manipulative, Brave, scared and Queenly and her zingers to Joff and Tyrion are on the money.

Maisie is good for her age but Sophie packs the emotional drive that makes her portrayal work.

[Wouter]

Unfortunately, I think she's going to get blamed regardless (Tyrion's a popular character to begin with and Dinklage is more or less the face of the show) - so while I agree that the popular view that Sansa is at fault is wrong, I guess I'm just happier with people feeling that way because she's "ungrateful" and views him as a Lannister now and forever and his looks aren't really as big a part of it (at least I suspect they won't be) as that leads to a lot of the "Sansa's a superficial bitch" type commentary.

I hadn't looked at it like that yet. I'm fine with it as long as show-Tyrion still ambushes her with the wedding (together with the other Lannisters) the way it happens in the books - no advance warning, only given her a (non)choice after Cersei and Joffrey have already commanded her to marry Tyrion and while the guests are already waiting (minus the Tyrells who also only got told at the last minute, I suppose). If it happens like that, people can then refer to the scene in "Blackwater" to point out that she never liked any Lannister (post-"Baelor"), even Tyrion.

I don't think the show will have her liking Tyrion much better though (maybe a little, especially if he stops short of the bedding scene as I suspect show-Tyrion might). The plot still has to go on as it does.

to Harrad;

As far as Tyrion using Sansa for his own purposes in their upcoming wedding....no....Tryion is a good soldier for the Lannisters and agrees to it, despite not wanting to do it. This is clear in the book.

Tyrion does agree to it, not because he is forced to do so by Tywin (Tyrion has refused Tywin on other counts, before, Shae being foremost among them), but because he is a good soldier for the Lannisters as you say (and thus a clear enemy of Sansa, certainly in this particular situation where her interest and the Lannisters are as opposed as they possibly could be) and because he is swayed by Tywin's arguments of getting Winterfell. Plus, both his thoughts as he was getting swayed and his thoughts afterwards (even in "Dance", here and there) make it clear he did like the idea of getting the pretty wife that Tywin had assured him he was never going to get otherwise.

to Ser Mixalot;

I am in the process of reading aSoS and there really isnt alot of meat to show Tyrion in a bad light pre marriage. Some potentially great scenes with tywin but nothing that shows him to be the rapscallion he is.

They don't need to show Tyrion in a bad light (ASOS pre-marriage doesn't show him in any particularly bad light, no need to force anything) before the marriage, they only need to show the Lannisters - all of them - going along with screwing Sansa over. Few people are not going to sympathise with Sansa is she is only being told of her very own wedding 5 minutes beforehand.

[Pellaeon]

I hadn't looked at it like that yet. I'm fine with it as long as show-Tyrion still ambushes her with the wedding (together with the other Lannisters) the way it happens in the books - no advance warning, only given her a (non)choice after Cersei and Joffrey have already commanded her to marry Tyrion and while the guests are already waiting (minus the Tyrells who also only got told at the last minute, I suppose). If it happens like that, people can then refer to the scene in "Blackwater" to point out that she never liked any Lannister (post-"Baelor"), even Tyrion.

I don't think the show will have her liking Tyrion much better though (maybe a little, especially if he stops short of the bedding scene as I suspect show-Tyrion might). The plot still has to go on as it does.

to Ser Mixalot;

They don't need to show Tyrion in a bad light (ASOS pre-marriage doesn't show him in any particularly bad light, no need to force anything) before the marriage, they only need to show the Lannisters - all of them - going along with screwing Sansa over. Few people are not going to sympathise with Sansa is she is only being told of her very own wedding 5 minutes beforehand.

I created a thread about how they will going to manage the wedding in the show, feel free to post:

http://asoiaf.wester...nsa-and-tyrion/

[Caro99]

i still wonder why the show had cersei mentioning that if stannis won it would take him some time to take the red keep, and since he isn't going to spare her, she was going to have herself and sansa killed by ser illy. we see her telling this to sansa, so it's a little odd (since in the books sansa is terrified of ser illyn) that she would be willing to wait in KL since by the time stannis sat the iron throne she would probably be headless.. yeah, they had shae telling her that in her rooms she would be safe from ser illyn and stannis wouldn't hurt her, but oh well, just another little diffrence from the book.

i got a no-book reader friend today be the first person i think i've seen commenting that sandor was the one at fauly in the show for sanas not going with him, instead of sansa coming of as foolish for not going with him. he said that he left her too quickly after he told her that he wouldn't hurt her and basically she had no time to make up her mind if she ought to go with him or not.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

aaaaah but maybe he left because he felt he was not good enough for her...........

he doubted himself

[Caro99]

aaaaah but maybe he left because he felt he was not good enough for her...........

he doubted himself

yeah, and since that's pretty much one of the reasons why he left in the books, i want to give him a hug :crying: can you imagine him deathbed confession, full of self-loathing and tears?! rory, you better give us some manly tears then cause you didn't cry this past sunday... though he also cries during the dondarrion fight/trial, so more rory scenes where he is scared of fire ( :crying: again)

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Haha, nice one. But, they already made Tyrion the unambiguous hero of the show. All of his scenes are flawless, he slaps Joffrey multiple times including the sentence 'Did my hand fall of my wrist?' etc etc. The only scene which could show his flaws is the scene in which he's going to marry Sansa just for her claim. But then the producers should make that very clear which I know they won't.

I already feel sorry for Sansa right now.

Don't feel sorry for her, they'll make it that Tyrion be completely understanding of her distrust of him and the marriage, they'll having him make no effort to bed her. They'll not have him resent her for not kneeling, they will have her submit to the consummation but have Tyrion nobly turn it down, reassuring her that he knows it's a sham marriage and that he'll keep her safe and have it annulled at a later date.

That way Sansa doesn't come across as a bitch, and Tyrion looks that much more heroic.

[Harrad]

to Harrad;

Tyrion does agree to it, not because he is forced to do so by Tywin (Tyrion has refused Tywin on other counts, before, Shae being foremost among them), but because he is a good soldier for the Lannisters as you say (and thus a clear enemy of Sansa, certainly in this particular situation where her interest and the Lannisters are as opposed as they possibly could be) and because he is swayed by Tywin's arguments of getting Winterfell. Plus, both his thoughts as he was getting swayed and his thoughts afterwards (even in "Dance", here and there) make it clear he did like the idea of getting the pretty wife that Tywin had assured him he was never going to get otherwise.

He "refuses" Tywin with regards to Shae by sneaking behind his back. Hardly a refusal. Likewise he does not refuse Tywin with regards to Sansa. However, since he never beds Sansa, how much advantage is he taking of this "pretty wife." Zero.

[Bronn Stone]

I think Maisie is OK, she's no phenom though, she has no real emotional roles as of yet,

The emotional bit that Maisie absoultely nailed was the scene in which Jon gave her Needle. Every time I watch that scene I am reminded of my own sister, and the wonder in her eye when given special attention from an older brother. You can see in Maisie's eye that she loves her new 'toy' but loves it all that much more in that it came from her brother.

Plus there is her bit on the statue of Baelor. If you don't watch that and definitely believe a little girl realizes her father is going to be executed, you aren't watching the same show I am. It is all there in her face AND in her body language. She was even better there than she was when Mycah died - which was actually pretty good as well.

Sophie got more to work with this season than Maisie got last (and Sophie was great), but to say Maisie got none is more than a bit foolish.

[Grail King]

The emotional bit that Maisie absoultely nailed was the scene in which Jon gave her Needle. Every time I watch that scene I am reminded of my own sister, and the wonder in her eye when given special attention from an older brother. You can see in Maisie's eye that she loves her new 'toy' but loves it all that much more in that it came from her brother.

Plus there is her bit on the statue of Baelor. If you don't watch that and definitely believe a little girl realizes her father is going to be executed, you aren't watching the same show I am. It is all there in her face AND in her body language. She was even better there than she was when Mycah died - which was actually pretty good as well.

Sophie got more to work with this season than Maisie got last (and Sophie was great), but to say Maisie got none is more than a bit foolish.

Oh, I seen the same show and yes there is emotion there and I didn't say she had none, just not on the same scale yet, I'm not saying she isn't good, just not phenomenal I want to see her during the RW scene, that! should be her emotional peak.

I think ALL the young actors are great, Gleason, Sophie, Maise, Isaack but I think Gleason and Turner do it a bit better.

[Caro99]

someone mentioned how the doll detail was added since maybe they won't be able to shoot the building of the snow castle... this i think would be a mistake cause that scene s just beautifyl and sad to read, and it also kind of mirrors the end of sansa's childhood, so they ought to shoo it!

[Wouter]

He "refuses" Tywin with regards to Shae by sneaking behind his back. Hardly a refusal. Likewise he does not refuse Tywin with regards to Sansa. However, since he never beds Sansa, how much advantage is he taking of this "pretty wife." Zero.

He got zero out of it (less than zero, actually, considering he got mocked and was never comfortable near her) but that wasn't what he had been hoping for, beforehand. Tyrion fell for Tywin's slick selling speech and he did not exactly seem to expect that Sansa could be colder than the Wall for such a period of time. He also seems to have planned to go ahead with the "bedding" (including what we now would call rape, even if the average Westerosi might not view it as such) until he realised how revulsed and shocked Sansa was.

Tyrion had hoped it would all work out; for once he was believing in the fancy songs, rather than Sansa.