Oberyn poisoned Tywin

[The Dragon King]

Provided that Tysha was a chance met girl and not a pre-paid whore... (Which I don't believe so far)

If she was, however, then yes, you are right, but Tyrion will still be a kinslaying little piece of shit no better than Cersei or Jaime or Tywin. Oh, and I know this is an ugly thing to say, and is, strictly speaking not true, but psychology is a tricky thing and in a really metaphorical and psychological meaning Tyrion also took away the only woman that ever loved Tywin or Tywin ever loved from him. (I know that was not Tyrion's fault, but if Tyrion couldn't get over Tysha and that is well like that, we should give that much to Tywin too - that it's okay that he projected his fury of losing Joanna on Tyrion)

Did Tyrion have ANY mal intent in "killing" his mother or does that just sometimes happen during childbirth? OTOH, Tywin simply wanted to inflict pain on Tyrion.

Also, this is after Tywin didnt allow Tyrion to get a word in at his trial. Push people far enough and they snap, kin or no.

[RhaenysBee]

Did Tyrion have ANY mal intent in "killing" his mother or does that just sometimes happen during childbirth? OTOH, Tywin simply wanted to inflict pain on Tyrion.

Also, this is after Tywin didnt allow Tyrion to get a word in at his trial. Push people far enough and they snap, kin or no.

Tyrion was in Tywin's way. That's why he wanted to keep him arrested. And as I specified, Joanna's death was NOT Tyrion's fault, but Tywin saw it as such and Tyrion being a dwarf didn't help much. (And don't blame that on Tywin, because we are in a world where nobody expects you to be politically correct. NOBODY would have ever liked to have a dwarf son in ASOIAF, that's not just Tywin). Of course it was not his fault, it wasn't intentional or anything, but it happened and if affected Tywin. And Tyrion spent his whole life doing the exact opposite of what Tywin told him/asked of him/expected of him - is that not pushing someone too? Don't say Tyrion is devil and Tywin is an angel. I'm only saying Tyrion is no better than Tywin. At all. (Even Genna Lannister said Tyrion was Tywin's son. To the core)

And we have no proof that Tywin had a hand in Tysha's disappearance, for all we know Tysha is living happily far away with the silver she was given. (And here I need to mention that Tyrion remembers Tysha having so many silvers it was running out of her hands - he doesn't remember Tysha crying or accusing anybody of rape.)

SO sorry for off-topicing, I'll stop.

To cover up a little:

Tyrion is still a piece of shit, whether it was him killing Tywin, or Oberys poisoning him, which I still don't believe.

[Clariana]

I should say I agree with this theory and only have one further thing to add. In AFfC, following the first visit to Tywin laid out in the chapel the Queen of Thorns remarks on the smell to Cersei.

"I caught a whiff of something unpleasant in the holy sept, in truth. Mayhaps you smelt it too?"

"No," Cersei said coldly. "A scent you say?"

"More like a stink."

My interpretation of this is that it takes a poisoner to know a poisoner... The Queen of Thorns is a known poisoner and immediately recognises the symptoms displayed by Tywin's corpse, and is using that fact to torment Cersei.

[RhaenysBee]

I should say I agree with this theory and only have one further thing to add. In AFfC, following the first visit to Tywin laid out in the chapel the Queen of Thorns remarks on the smell to Cersei.

"I caught a whiff of something unpleasant in the holy sept, in truth. Mayhaps you smelt it too?"

"No," Cersei said coldly. "A scent you say?"

"More like a stink."

My interpretation of this is that it takes a poisoner to know a poisoner... The Queen of Thorns is a known poisoner and immediately recognises the symptoms displayed by Tywin's corpse, and is using that fact to torment Cersei.

I think she is just mocking Cersei. To make her uncomfortable about the ungraceful death of her father.

But what of Olenna doing away Joffrey? What if she poisoned Tywin too? I'm not saying she did. I even find it hard to believe that she poisoned Joffrey. That's just SO gross.

[Clariana]

Oh another thing just occurred to me... When he first meets Tyrion Oberyn says he wants to find a brothel in KL in order to entertain himself. At the end of their conversation Tyrion directs him to Chataya's...

When Oberyn visits Tyrion in his cell he tells him that he went to Chataya's and bedded her daughter, Alayaya who had whip marks on her back... If Oberyn found Alayaya could he have accessed Shae, too? Could he have arranged for Shae to poison Tywin given that they may have been having an affair?

Just a thought.

[Antonius Pius]

When Oberyn visits Tyrion in his cell he tells him that he went to Chataya's and bedded her daughter, Alayaya who had whip marks on her back... If Oberyn found Alayaya could he have accessed Shae, too? Could he have arranged for Shae to poison Tywin given that they may have been having an affair?

Ask a gold-digging prostitute to poisen the most powerful and cruel lord of the realm, in his own house? One word to Tywin and the entire Dornish contingent is locked up. Not likely, IMO.

I haven't been able to read this entire thread. Is there a theory on when exactly Oberyn is supposed to have slipped Tywin the poison?

[The guy from the Vale]

Yes. The most widespread assumption is that Oberyn slipped the poison into Tywin's food during the breakfast they had with Mace Tyrell. I think it's in some Jaime chapter.

[Antonius Pius]

But when is this breakfast in relation to Tywin's death? Is it on the day of the Oberyn/Gregor fight? 'Cause I thouhgt it was before that.

[Ser Mag the Mighty]

Poison isn't really the best explanation for the decay though. By the time of the funeral, Tywin had been dead for a week, and they don't exactly have air conditioning in Westeros. I would think natural decay would explain as well as poison.

ETA. Shouldn't the poison have killed him earlier though?

Magic poison :)).

The Red Viper probably wanted a slow-acting poison so as to get out of town if he was still alive.

Never even crossed my mind, but I am now a believer.

Although I remember thinking "that's odd" when Tyrion found Tywin in the privy. And "He found his father where he knew he’d find him"?

Everyone is saying "poor Tyrion, he didn't need to do that", but I think he knew exactly what he was doing.

He had figured out that Tywin was a ticking bomb and still went ahead with it.

[Ser Mag the Mighty]

Here's a quote from AFFC, the dialog between the Queen of Thornes and Cersei:

- (..) I do abhor foul smells.” Her wrinkled face wrinkled up even more. “I caught a whiff of something unpleasant in the holy sept, in truth. Mayhaps you smelled it too?”

“No,” Cersei said coldly. “A scent, you say?”

“More like a stink.”

And here's a quote from ASOS:

“Help the poor boy!” the Queen of Thorns screeched, in a voice ten times her size. “Dolts! Will you all stand about gaping? Help your king!”

Olenna seems like the sort of silent killer who comes back to the murder scene and looks at the corpses after the cops arrive. It may be that Olenna had a hand in Tywin's poisoning as well.

[The Dragon King]

Tyrion was in Tywin's way. That's why he wanted to keep him arrested. And as I specified, Joanna's death was NOT Tyrion's fault, but Tywin saw it as such and Tyrion being a dwarf didn't help much. (And don't blame that on Tywin, because we are in a world where nobody expects you to be politically correct. NOBODY would have ever liked to have a dwarf son in ASOIAF, that's not just Tywin). Of course it was not his fault, it wasn't intentional or anything, but it happened and if affected Tywin. And Tyrion spent his whole life doing the exact opposite of what Tywin told him/asked of him/expected of him - is that not pushing someone too? Don't say Tyrion is devil and Tywin is an angel. I'm only saying Tyrion is no better than Tywin. At all. (Even Genna Lannister said Tyrion was Tywin's son. To the core)

And we have no proof that Tywin had a hand in Tysha's disappearance, for all we know Tysha is living happily far away with the silver she was given. (And here I need to mention that Tyrion remembers Tysha having so many silvers it was running out of her hands - he doesn't remember Tysha crying or accusing anybody of rape.)

SO sorry for off-topicing, I'll stop.

To cover up a little:

Tyrion is still a piece of shit, whether it was him killing Tywin, or Oberys poisoning him, which I still don't believe.

Ok, so Tyrion was in Tywin’s way so it’s cool to dismiss any possibility that he’s innocent and just throw away his life? If you’re going to declare war on someone expect them to fight back.

Tywin chose not to see any value in Tyrion, not until Jamie was captured and Tyrion was all he had left. As for Tyrion not listening to him, is that really what happened? I know Tyrion was a constant disappointment to Tywin but I don’t see him being capable of doing anything which didn’t result in Tywin’s disappointment, so I’m thinking it’s “a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation”.

As for Tysha accusing Tywin of rape, are you serious? A lord IS the law, do you think a woman in that position would run to Aerys/Robert Barytheon who would then put him in trial? If she wanted to keep her head she’d run away and never run into a Lannister again. Whether she’s happy living off the silver is irrelevant, Tywin took her from Tyrion.

I don’t necessarily agree with what Tyrion did, I wonder if his decision was based on the possibility that Shae was just Tywin’s pawn all along, but Tywin kinda had it coming.

Tywin simply didnt respect Tyrion, even with a crossbow in his hand he didnt even respect him as a potential threat, and in the end it killed him.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Yes. The most widespread assumption is that Oberyn slipped the poison into Tywin's food during the breakfast they had with Mace Tyrell. I think it's in some Jaime chapter.

First of all, that had to be the most tense and awkward breakfast ever. So much mutual hatred and contempt in that room. :eek:

Second of all, don't you think Tywin and Mace would be on guard for exactly what you're talking about? The guy is called "the Red Viper", and Tywin knows he has reason to hate him. I doubt there would be an opportunity to slip anything in Tywin's drink...

[RhaenysBee]

Tywin chose not to see any value in Tyrion, not until Jamie was captured and Tyrion was all he had left. As for Tyrion not listening to him, is that really what happened? I know Tyrion was a constant disappointment to Tywin but I don’t see him being capable of doing anything which didn’t result in Tywin’s disappointment, so I’m thinking it’s “a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation”.

Same situation vice versa. Tyrion didn't hate anything his father did because he thought it was wrong in the first place. He hated these things and thought them to be wrong because Tywin did them.

As for Tysha accusing Tywin of rape, are you serious? A lord IS the law, do you think a woman in that position would run to Aerys/Robert Barytheon who would then put him in trial? If she wanted to keep her head she’d run away and never run into a Lannister again. Whether she’s happy living off the silver is irrelevant, Tywin took her from Tyrion.

Who said anything about running to anybody or accusing Tywin?

I said that if a woman is gangraped she will probably cry and scream and protest. And Tyrion never remembered such. He remebered Tysha fucking his father's soldiers getting a silver for each and having so many silvers in the end that she couldn't hold them.

I don’t necessarily agree with what Tyrion did, I wonder if his decision was based on the possibility that Shae was just Tywin’s pawn all along, but Tywin kinda had it coming.

Tywin simply didnt respect Tyrion, even with a crossbow in his hand he didnt even respect him as a potential threat, and in the end it killed him.

And was it Tywin's fault that he trusted her?

I agree. Tywin had it coming. Death. But I don't think anybody has his son killing him coming. (Rhaegar had planned to overthrow Aerys too, but he never killed him, yes I know it's not the same, because Aerys didn't bully Rhaegar, but he bullied Rhaegar's mother... so there you have it.) And I also agree that what killed Tywin in the end (whether that was Tyrion's crossbow or someone's poison, Oberyn's might be, don't think so, but might be) was that he didn't take seriously those he looked down on. I thought that his power and name will protect him. In that aspect it was good to see a Lannister killing him, to prove that family prestige will not necessarily make you survive, since to a Lannister another Lannister is just a simple mortal man.

[Antonius Pius]

Who said anything about running to anybody or accusing Tywin?

I said that if a woman is gangraped she will probably cry and scream and protest. And Tyrion never remembered such. He remebered Tysha fucking his father's soldiers getting a silver for each and having so many silvers in the end that she couldn't hold them.

From what I recall (it's been a while since I read that scene :ack: ), Tyrion is vague about the details, but he does mention it was rape, or at least reflect on it as rape. He also acknowledges that he herself raped her.

We also don't know what Tysha may have been told, or what may have been done to her. Not really much to go on in that respect.

[Jon WintryMix]

I, for one, am utterly convinced.

I am all in on this one. By the way, (totally off-topic...you can hate me now) for all those who say that the Theon Durdin theory doesn't "fit GRRM's style", I say that the style shown on this topic complements the Theon Durdin theory very nicely.

[RhaenysBee]

From what I recall (it's been a while since I read that scene :ack:), Tyrion is vague about the details, but he does mention it was rape, or at least reflect on it as rape. He also acknowledges that he herself raped her.

We also don't know what Tysha may have been told, or what may have been done to her. Not really much to go on in that respect.

Can you tell me in which book that might be? Tyrion acknowledging that he raped Tysha (I don't recall anything like that, at all.) I only recall that what he saw makes Tyrion positive that Tysha WAS a whore paid by Tywin and Jaime (because that's why they make him look, so that he'll know).

Anyway, this is SO off-topic, and I'm sorry, really... :///

[The Dragon King]

Same situation vice versa. Tyrion didn't hate anything his father did because he thought it was wrong in the first place. He hated these things and thought them to be wrong because Tywin did them.

What? Tyrion never like being crapped on for being a dwarf no matter who did it, that it was his own father just made it worse.

Who said anything about running to anybody or accusing Tywin?

I said that if a woman is gangraped she will probably cry and scream and protest. And Tyrion never remembered such. He remebered Tysha fucking his father's soldiers getting a silver for each and having so many silvers in the end that she couldn't hold them.

If a Lord, especially one like Tywin who had a reputation for being merciless, gives you an order you best obey if you want to live. Crying and screaming is not the best thing if you don't want yourself and your family to be killed.

I agree. Tywin had it coming. Death. But I don't think anybody has his son killing him coming. (Rhaegar had planned to overthrow Aerys too, but he never killed him, yes I know it's not the same, because Aerys didn't bully Rhaegar, but he bullied Rhaegar's mother... so there you have it.) And I also agree that what killed Tywin in the end (whether that was Tyrion's crossbow or someone's poison, Oberyn's might be, don't think so, but might be) was that he didn't take seriously those he looked down on. I thought that his power and name will protect him. In that aspect it was good to see a Lannister killing him, to prove that family prestige will not necessarily make you survive, since to a Lannister another Lannister is just a simple mortal man.

Aerys had it coming simply for being a nutjob with absolute power, Rhaegar would have done well to dispose Aerys by one means or another.

[Antonius Pius]

It's in the scene in AGoT, when he confesses the tale to Bronn. Or rather, I took the description, and his unspoken reflections as admission that he raped her as well. It's never ecplicit, but it is implied, also in Tyrions last ASoS chapter.

The tragedy is that he believed she was a whore. The coins are meant to make that clear, but exact details of what took place, and how, are (mercifully) absent.

[Antonius Pius]

Rhaegar would have done well to dispose Aerys by one means or another.

He intended to, just never got around to it... The Trident got in the way.

[adjppm1227]

Ahhh, but there is a flaw in the logic. When someone dies, the bloodstream stops. Those Tywin's disfigurement was merely decomposition. And what chance did the Red Viper have?